Members Phantasm Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Ok, a friend called tonight asking for advice on this one, and I thought I'd present it to the forum since I'm sure someone has been in this spot before. My friend's band had a bass player that recently quit the band. Prior to him leaving the band, they had loaned him some money to buy a bass with the understanding that he needed to pay it back. Since he didn't repay his debt, they told him that they were going to hang on to his cabinet (which I sold him at a great discount) and his amp head until he could come up with the money. Several months have passed and he can't come up with the money, so he called today to tell them that he wasn't going to pay them and that he was coming with the police to get his stuff back if they wouldn't give it to him. So, in this situation, what would you do? Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members s4001 Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 1: Possession isn't 9/10'ths of the law - title is. IE, if someone stole one of my Rics that I have photo'd and documented up the wazoo, I can collect them even if I find them 10 years later and they've been sold three times. The ownership of them was never transferred to any of the subsequent sellers. The buyers would be SOL.2: Here it doesn't matter because nothing is in writing. He may come back with the police and it'll be a my-word-against-yours thing unless he can prove the cab is his.3: Any money loaned without paper to back it up is money lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted September 11, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 1: Possession isn't 9/10'ths of the law - title is.2: Here it doesn't matter because nothing is in writing. He may come back with the police and it'll be a my-word-against-yours thing unless he can prove the cab is his.3: Any money loaned without paper to back it up is money lost. Essentially this is what I told them. The cab was sold to him by me, and there was no bill of sale. There was also no bill of sale when I bought it, for that matter, so I guess legally it belongs to my friend Johnny that I bought it from! I think they could recoup their money by selling just the cab, so I told them to hang on to that and return the amp (which was purchased by this guy and he probably has the receipt somewhere.) I just didn't want to give them that advice and have them be arrested, so if anyone else has further commentary, it's appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gruntollio Bass Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Did they get the agreement in writing that he would pay back the money?Can they prove that the lent the money to him in the first place? If the Bassplayer can provide purchase receipts for the amp and cab, there's no way the band will be able to hang onto them without first gaining some form of legal intervention order to do so such as a lien or caveat. The band has the option to sue the bassplayer for the money lent if they can prove it is an outstanding debt. From there they can take enforcement proceedings once judgement is granted. This may include and order for the goods to be repossessed and auctioned to levey the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gruntollio Bass Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Essentially this is what I told them.The cab was sold to him by me, and there was no bill of sale. There was also no bill of sale when I bought it, for that matter, so I guess legally it belongs to my friend Johnny that I bought it from! I think they could recoup their money by selling just the cab, so I told them to hang on to that and return the amp (which was purchased by this guy and he probably has the receipt somewhere.)I just didn't want to give them that advice and have them be arrested, so if anyone else has further commentary, it's appreciated. As long as you were willing to provide a receipt for whatever consideration was made for the purchase, this would be sufficient for him to claim ownership of the cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 That phrase is no more true than "An Apple a Day keeps the Doctor away"... It's also quite a bit older than the American legal system. It's a statement regarding the practicalities of power, not an actual legal precept. The stuff is his, preventing him from giving it back is illegal. Unless he gave the items to them as collateral, they cannot keep it from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mustbampeg Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Not a damn thing they can do. He shows up with the police and the police ensure that he gets his equipment. I've seen it happen. They lost their money. period of course, they could always just find this dude out back, and take the money out of his ass Ok, a friend called tonight asking for advice on this one, and I thought I'd present it to the forum since I'm sure someone has been in this spot before. My friend's band had a bass player that recently quit the band. Prior to him leaving the band, they had loaned him some money to buy a bass with the understanding that he needed to pay it back. Since he didn't repay his debt, they told him that they were going to hang on to his cabinet (which I sold him at a great discount) and his amp head until he could come up with the money. Several months have passed and he can't come up with the money, so he called today to tell them that he wasn't going to pay them and that he was coming with the police to get his stuff back if they wouldn't give it to him. So, in this situation, what would you do? Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deep Bass Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Will the police REALLY show up? I'm just wondering if this guy's story is enough for the police to bother making a house call. Never been in that situation, so I have nothing to compare to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcrow Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 establish what you sold him and if there was a verbal contract..which is just as legal as a written onea conditional sale has to have all the conditions met before the goods..chattels ..can be established in ownership..you can sell something to someone and its not theirs in law by conditional agreement..a sort of lease lend agreementandthe goods have to be legally owned by the seller...hence we get fencing...stolen goods arent the property of anyone except the original owner..so a sale on those dont come within commercial regimes you will have to own up and say the stack wasnt yours to sell...its a match point here and tie breaker a reciept needs to be produced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ec437 Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 First, "dispose" of "stack". Then... "What stack? Dude, you never left a stack here. Officers, we honestly have no idea what he's talking about. He's probably just trying to jack some more of our equipment. Let him come in here and see if he can prove ownership over any of the equipment in the house. When he isn't able to, can you kindly escort him off our property please? Thanks." ....or.... leave stack by "accidentally unlocked" window or door, be "away/asleep" while "chance break-in" occurs. Theifs happen to take only previously mentioned musical equipment. Refuse to file insurance claim citing that it is not your equipment, and should the owner not have wished to risk having equipment stolen, he shouldn't have left it behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members baracuda2004 Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 First, "dispose" of "stack".Then..."What stack? Dude, you never left a stack here. Officers, we honestly have no idea what he's talking about. He's probably just trying to jack some more of our equipment. Let him come in here and see if he can prove ownership over any of the equipment in the house. When he isn't able to, can you kindly escort him off our property please? Thanks." as underhanded as it is.. i agree whole heartedly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ec437 Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Oh, and I forgot to mention: be sure to "destroy" all written or recorded correspondence regarding said "stack" before claiming that "stack" "doesn't exist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezstep Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Since you sold the cab to him, you will probably be called (if it actually gets that far). Since you also know that the other guy lent him money and is holding the cab as collateral, you will probably be called. Honestly, I don't see the police much interested in this. Too many open ends. In fact, how can he prove that it is actually his cab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted September 11, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Since you sold the cab to him, you will probably be called (if it actually gets that far). Since you also know that the other guy lent him money and is holding the cab as collateral, you will probably be called.Honestly, I don't see the police much interested in this. Too many open ends. In fact, how can he prove that it is actually his cab? That's what I'm saying... I never gave him a receipt and he paid in cash. How can he claim ownership of anything, push come to shove. I also suggested moving the goods from one location to an undisclosed one. He can go to the practice room with the police, and when the gear isn't there and they say "i have no idea what gear you're talking about," the police will lose what little interest they have in helping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnny6644 Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 You're SOL unless you want to go all legal on him, which won't be worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pickdust Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 The cabinet and head are his. There is no legal basis for the band to hold it pending repayment of the loan to buy the bass. He owes you guys for the cost of the bass. He needs pay the band the cost of the bass or, if this is acceptable to you, return the bass to the band. If he refuses to do either you can always engage the services of the local small claims court. They usually apply equity on a regular basis (I know I did). Keep the issues separate and you should be able to work it out. PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members misterhinkydink Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 I'd laugh at him and tell him to bring the cops. I can't imagine them getting involved in a civil matter such as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted September 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted September 11, 2007 The cabinet and head are his. There is no legal basis for the band to hold it pending repayment of the loan to buy the bass.He owes you guys for the cost of the bass. He needs pay the band the cost of the bass or, if this is acceptable to you, return the bass to the band.If he refuses to do either you can always engage the services of the local small claims court. They usually apply equity on a regular basis (I know I did).Keep the issues separate and you should be able to work it out.PD Exactly. You goofballs that suggest being underhanded need to grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Slide Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 The reality is that unless he wants to take you to small claims court, there's not much he can do. I ran into something like this (though it was not musical equipment) and I straight out asked the police officer "Are you telling me that if someone steals something from me, you can't go get it" and the response was "Nope. It's a matter of your word vs. his word. You'd have to take him to small claims court." I wouldn't worry. Edit: of course I live in a small mill-town in Maine, so who knows how this stuff works elsewhere. I honestly can't imagine that the cops have much they can do... and if there is, maybe I need to call em and tell 'em how the guy down the street stole my SVT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted September 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted September 11, 2007 The reality is that unless he wants to take you to small claims court, there's not much he can do. I ran into something like this (though it was not musical equipment) and I straight out asked the police officer "Are you telling me that if someone steals something from me, you can't go get it" and the response was "Nope. It's a matter of your word vs. his word. You'd have to take him to small claims court."I wouldn't worry.Edit: of course I live in a small mill-town in Maine, so who knows how this stuff works elsewhere. I honestly can't imagine that the cops have much they can do... and if there is, maybe I need to call em and tell 'em how the guy down the street stole my SVT... Yeah, I'd be shocked if the cops did anything. It's just not their job to do so. This is exactly what small claims court is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members misterhinkydink Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Exactly.You goofballs that suggest being underhanded need to grow up. I think it's you who needs to grow up and get a some life experience. The prick said he wasn't going to pay them back and threatened to show up with the cops. If they give him the head and cabinet they'll never see any of the money they loaned him. Let him be the one to take legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted September 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted September 11, 2007 I think it's you who needs to grow up and get a some life experience. The prick said he wasn't going to pay them back and threatened to show up with the cops. If they give him the head and cabinet they'll never see any of the money they loaned him. Let him be the one to take legal action. Are you suggesting they knowingly prevent him from access to what is rightfully his? It is very easy for them to negotiate with him to exchange the head and cabinet (that is rightfully his) for the bass (which is arguably not his). If that fails, they don't need to just hand over the gear, but to fake a theft or to do something else underhanded is teenage level game playing. Oh wait, and illegal. Please let me know what life experience you think I'm lacking. I'd be really curious to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members misterhinkydink Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Please let me know what life experience you think I'm lacking. I'd be really curious to hear. The scenario in this thread is a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pickdust Posted September 11, 2007 Members Share Posted September 11, 2007 Are you suggesting they knowingly prevent him from access to what is rightfully his? It is very easy for them to negotiate with him to exchange the head and cabinet (that is rightfully his) for the bass (which is arguably not his). If that fails, they don't need to just hand over the gear, but to fake a theft or to do something else underhanded is teenage level game playing. Oh wait, and illegal. Please let me know what life experience you think I'm lacking. I'd be really curious to hear. Due to job constraints (secret squirrel stuff) I don't post as much as I'd like but I view a lot. I know its fun to do sometimes but ......um..........this is beneath you. PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted September 11, 2007 Moderators Share Posted September 11, 2007 I've dealt with exactly this situation and everyone involved returned everything to the rightful owner, no cops were involved, no illegal activity occurred and friendships were maintained despite the difficult situation. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what our disagreement is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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