USA and pollution

[hawkhuff]

Emission tests don't count for much when your burning less then 20 miles to the gallon in a big SUV, the sheer volume of gas the US produces is the problem. Ok so it's a percentage cleaner than a diesel, but when you are producing over twice as much gas, it's a null and void point if you catch my drift? I'm open to being corrected on these points because i'm no expert, but i'm willing to bet that i'm near the mark.

The problem is we don't have enough gas refineries to make more gasoline in the U.S of A. No one can get a permit to build one without spending years in the court system.

I am not here to correct you but if one can afford to pay for the gasoline, no matter what the price, and the SUV, what do you care?

I have a big SUV and it gets 19 MPG and I am damn proud to own and operate one. I love the size, space and safety features. It is also legal to own one and it is also my business if I wish to have one. I make no apologies to anyone. Besides, it fits my Ampeg cabs. :poke:

Now, that could change after the election of '08. You can only hope then we will be as socialistic as you.

[REMUS]

It's not a liquid in that particular situation, just a gas... but yeah that's the one.

 

Yep neon it's much cheaper than regular petrol/gas, under half in the UK... but that's simply because the mother {censored}ers in office havn't taxed it yet.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

The ranking is based on a weighted score of NOx, CO, CO2, HC, PM (Soot) and fuel consumption.

 

 

What about SO2???

[REMUS]

The problem is we don't have enough gas refineries to make more gasoline in the U.S of A. No one can get a permit to build one without spending years in the court system. I am not here to correct you but if one can afford to pay for the gasoline, no matter what the price, and the SUV, what do you care? I have a big SUV and it gets 19 MPG and I am damn proud to own and operate one. I love the size, space and safety features. It is also legal to own one and it is also my business if I wish to have one. I make no apologies to anyone. Besides, it fits my Ampeg cabs. :poke: Now, that could change after the election of '08. You can only hope then we will be as socialistic as you.

Do what you want to your own county *shrug*, but you are part of the larger problem if you are proud to have a day to day drive that does 19 mpg.

I'm not going to try and make you see my point of view, you live in a different society and culture. But I feel you must know that it is wrong, or you wouldn't be so defensive... it's your planet as much as it is mine.

[Mudbass]

Your emission laws are stricter than most, because most other countries don't have any. Due to the cooperation of european and japanese car manufacturers, there are no enforcible standards in europe so far.

 

 

Most countries don't need any emissions standards because the world's car makers are manufacturing to standards set in the USA. American consumers buy more cars than anybody on Earth and if a car maker wants to sell a product here it has to meet our standards.

 

Diesel cars aren't sold here because nobody wants them, plain and simple. If there was a market for them here you can bet car makers would produce a diesel that passed inspection, but as long as gasoline and diesel are as close in price as they are you're not going to see much demand for diesel cars here.

[REMUS]

If your doing circa 15 mpg, then you need strict emissions.

 

Can you please quote these laws with links, so I can find out what our emission regulations are to compare?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Do what you want to your own county *shrug*, but you are part of the larger problem if you are proud to have a day to day drive that does 19 mpg. I'm not going to try and make you see my point of view, you live in a different society and culture. But I feel you must know that it is wrong, or you wouldn't be so defensive... it's your planet as much as it is mine.

 

 

Short of an outright revolt in this country, nothing and I mean nothing will stop the US from supporting the automobile as the primary mode of transportation. Rail has long been abandoned for all but a tiny segment of commercial transport, so diesel trucks are the rule. They pollute like crazy, and we already pay through the nose for cars that have expensive and complicated emmission controls, while trucks essentially get a free ride burning diesel with higher sulfur and lower cetane ratings than what you use in Europe.

 

In other words, there's little if any incentive for someone who can afford a larger car or SUV to buy something more economical, beyond the actual fuel cost savings.

[hawkhuff]

Do what you want to your own county *shrug*, but you are part of the larger problem if you are proud to have a day to day drive that does 19 mpg. I'm not going to try and make you see my point of view, you live in a different society and culture. But I feel you must know that it is wrong, or you wouldn't be so defensive... it's your planet as much as it is mine.

I am not being defensive per se. However, I do get annoyed when someone else tells me how I should behave, feel, and what I should do. And they do this through trying to make me and others feel guilty but don't mistake my defense as guilt. Quite the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy my SUV. What's wrong with having a safe and roomy vehicle if I can afford it?

Who is to decide what is wrong, as you put it? Do you set the standards for purchasing vehicles? No, and neither do I but I will use what I can afford.

SUV's sell like crazy here because people want them and can afford them.

[ranjaman]

What about SO2???

 

 

No SO2 measurements, but all fuel sold in the EU has less than 10mg/kg of sulfur, a lot of gas stations only offer sulfur-free fuel too.

SO2-emissions do not have an impact on the emission-ratings of a car.

[REMUS]

I am not being defensive per se. However, I do get annoyed when someone else tells me how I should behave, feel, and what I should do. And they do this through trying to make me and others feel guilty but don't mistake my defense as guilt. Quite the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy my SUV. What's wrong with having a safe and roomy vehicle if I can afford it? Who is to decide what is wrong, as you put it? Do you set the standards for purchasing vehicles? No, and neither do I but I will use what I can afford. SUV's sell like crazy here because people want them and can afford them.

 

You call it guilt, I call it a fact.

 

Do what you want dude, like you said your money not mine. Don't play the safe card though, i'll find the independent tables detailing the safest cars on the market. SUV's rarely figure in them... a SUV might seem better vs a normal car but vs another SUV or something bigger it's a totally different story.

 

I just find it weird... that SUV's don't sell anywhere else like they do in America.... it's got nothing to do with affording them either.

[ThudMaker]

 

Do what you want to your own county *shrug*, but you are part of the larger problem if you are proud to have a day to day drive that does 19 mpg. I'm not going to try and make you see my point of view, you live in a different society and culture. But I feel you must know that it is wrong, or you wouldn't be so defensive... it's your planet as much as it is mine.

There's nothing wrong about it. As a much larger country than your own, it's something you don't quite comprehend. From a sheer monetary standpoint, it makes no sense to build mass transportation that links every town of 100 people here. With the exception of the Northeast and Southwest US large population centers are hours apart with little farm communities scattered all over.

 

I always find conversations like this on a musician's forum interesting. Do you expect people to carry 2 subs, 2 tops, a mixer, a couple of power amps, a bass rig and a couple of basses on a train? Stuff doesn't get beamed anywhere. It takes a decent sized vehicle to get that job done.

[lug]

Notice the number of SUV's in the least deaths per million list and then read the highest death list. After that, look up the word "spin".

http://www.leftlanenews.com/iihs-study-reveals-deadliest-vehicles.html

[ranjaman]

Most countries don't need any emissions standards because the world's car makers are manufacturing to standards set in the USA. American consumers buy more cars than anybody on Earth and if a car maker wants to sell a product here it has to meet our standards.

 

 

That's BS, car manufacturers build cars for specific markets, so they only have to meet your standards for the cars they plan to sell in the US.

There's a big difference between the american and the european car market.

[King Kashue]

Do what you want to your own county *shrug*, but you are part of the larger problem if you are proud to have a day to day drive that does 19 mpg. I'm not going to try and make you see my point of view, you live in a different society and culture. But I feel you must know that it is wrong, or you wouldn't be so defensive... it's your planet as much as it is mine.

 

Because people outside the US don't get "defensive" when Americans tell them the way they live is "wrong"? Please...

 

 

In terms of cars vs. other modes of transport, have you ever visted the US? Do you have a solid conception of it's relative size? It's half a continent.

 

I currently live in Los Angeles. The State of California is twice the size of Great Britain. You can drive the distance from Lands End to John O' Groats and still be within the State of California.

 

 

Having lived in both the US and the UK, I can tell you that it's not just a matter of "different choices". The UK is tiny. Cities are densely packed. The line between town and country is definite. The are almost no suburbs anywhere.

 

In the US, by virtue of the massive size of it all, that just isn't the case. In areas where public transport can work (i.e., Cities), it's there, and it's the preferred means of transportation. In New York, there are people who never learn to drive because no one wants to drive in Manhattan, they take the Subway. The "L" in Chicago, the Bart and Muni in San Francisco, the MBTA in Boston.

 

However, most of America is still rural. No one is going to build a train to service Moab, Utah or Bad Axe, Michigan. And even the "Urban Metro" populations live in Suburbs with lawns and wide streets. Again, public transport can't provide enough service and people aren't going to walk miles.

 

 

You live in a country, the majority of which was laid out long before the automobile. We live in a country that grew up with the Automobile, and was conceptualized and constructed with the car in mind. It's not just a "choice" to drive an car, it's a necessity for all but those in a few denser urban area.

 

 

Now, as for the mileage on cars, you're right, and that's why most car companies are coming out with more fuel efficient engines, even for SUVs. Living in Los Angeles, I can literally see the pollution every day (the air here is semi-opaque and can be described in shades of beige and brown), it needs to change and it is changing (it was worse in the 60s, and has been getting better ever since)...

 

 

PS, as for why SUVs aren't popular elsewhere, they're big. The Roads in Europe were designed for horse carts. When a tiny European car has trouble getting down a road, how do you think an SUV is going to fare. Plus, there's that issue with the cost of petrol at the pump and how much your government taxes drive up prices. If the US government taxed our gasoline as much as your Government taxes yours, I bet you'd see a lot less SUVs...until the congress that passed the tax was voted out, of course

[Mudbass]

That's BS, car manufacturers build cars for specific markets, so they only have to meet your standards for the cars they plan to sell in the US. There's a big difference between the american and the european car market.

 

 

Are your cars there running on unleaded gas?

 

Then don't tell me it's bull{censored}.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Are your cars there running on unleaded gas? Then don't tell me it's bull{censored}.

 

 

No, ranjaman is correct. There are even "49 state" cars in the US. One for CA, another for the rest of the country. It's simple economics; if emission controls were cheaper than the cost of carrying two or more car designs, then there'd definitely be a 'one-type fits all' car with the maximum emission controls installed. But it's still cheaper to have separate models.

 

Leaded gas engines have long since disappeared simply because exhaust valve technology allows engines to no longer need lead to protect valve seats, and because other additives were developed to boost octane ratings.

[Mudbass]

Leaded gas engines have long since disappeared simply because exhaust valve technology allows engines to no longer need lead to protect valve seats, and because other additives were developed to boost octane ratings.

 

 

Leaded gas engines have disappeared because California emissions regulations made them disappear in 1975, the rest of the USA soon followed suit and the rest of the world after that.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Leaded gas engines have disappeared because California emissions regulations made them disappear in 1975, the rest of the USA soon followed suit and the rest of the world after that.

 

 

Yes, that was the incentive behind the development of the technology. FWIW, leaded gas is still sold in parts of Europe as well as some other parts of the world. But all of this was just an aside to my point that ranjaman was correct about market-specific car models.

[REMUS]

Because people outside the US don't get "defensive" when Americans tell them the way they live is "wrong"? Please...

 

 

In terms of cars vs. other modes of transport, have you ever visted the US? Do you have a solid conception of it's relative size? It's half a continent.

 

Yes, I have looked at a global map before.

 

I currently live in Los Angeles. The State of California is twice the size of Great Britain. You can drive the distance from Lands End to John O' Groats and still be within the State of California.

 

ORLY!?

 

Having lived in both the US and the UK, I can tell you that it's not just a matter of "different choices". The UK is tiny. Cities are densely packed. The line between town and country is definite. The are almost no suburbs anywhere.

 

ORLY!? And how does this relate to SUV's being viable alternative, if you have to travel further it only makes it more imperative to drive an efficient car/truck/thing.

 

In the US, by virtue of the massive size of it all, that just isn't the case. In areas where public transport can work (i.e., Cities), it's there, and it's the preferred means of transportation. In New York, there are people who never learn to drive because no one wants to drive in Manhattan, they take the Subway. The "L" in Chicago, the Bart and Muni in San Francisco, the MBTA in Boston.

 

So there isn't a developed air/train network in the US, for long distance travel?

 

However, most of America is still rural. No one is going to build a train to service Moab, Utah or Bad Axe, Michigan. And even the "Urban Metro" populations live in Suburbs with lawns and wide streets. Again, public transport can't provide enough service and people aren't going to walk miles.

 

So everyone has to drive SUV's

 

You live in a country, the majority of which was laid out long before the automobile. We live in a country that grew up with the Automobile, and was conceptualized and constructed with the car in mind. It's not just a "choice" to drive an car, it's a necessity for all but those in a few denser urban area.

 

Ahhhhh right, so we still use all the roman infastructure. We haven't built any new roads to accommodate arctic lorries and the like, even smaller delivery vans or medium sized SUV's such as Range/Land Rovers...

 

Now, as for the mileage on cars, you're right, and that's why most car companies are coming out with more fuel efficient engines, even for SUVs. Living in Los Angeles, I can literally see the pollution every day (the air here is semi-opaque and can be described in shades of beige and brown), it needs to change and it is changing (it was worse in the 60s, and has been getting better ever since)...

 

So why are you arguing with me? You have a problem, getting aggrieved with me for pointing it out isn't going to sort it out or help the situation.

 

PS, as for why SUVs aren't popular elsewhere, they're big. The Roads in Europe were designed for horse carts. When a tiny European car has trouble getting down a road, how do you think an SUV is going to fare. Plus, there's that issue with the cost of petrol at the pump and how much your government taxes drive up prices. If the US government taxed our gasoline as much as your Government taxes yours, I bet you'd see a lot less SUVs...until the congress that passed the tax was voted out, of course

 

Yeah i've got a 6 horsepower cart as my daily ride, pimped out with 60" woodies, shod with stainless steel.

 

Top gear recently did a study of the new Cadillac and Hummer SUV's, they weigh so much that even with their monstrous engines... they are useless off road. So please don't play that card, most SUV's are utterly useless off road because they are to long and heavy.

 

And Jeremy Clarkson can't be bias or rig it because the bbc will be and has been sued, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkA2FIV_bxc

 

If your government taxed you as much as us, then you would have a decent public transport system mate and you wouldn't have to pay for your hospital treatment....

 

If SUV's are so great, then why is Ford for example in such a crisis in comparison to Japanese and European companies and the $ so weak?

[lug]

My SUV is the most effecient vehicle to travel in.

(otherwise I'd have to take 2 cars to get the whole family anywhere )

[REMUS]

Get a trailer and drive a normal car with a tow hitch!?

[lug]

Get a trailer and drive a normal car with a tow hitch!?

Trailers are bad for gass mileage plus a bit uncomfortable on those 100 degree, 90% humidity days (about 366 days a year here). I think those pesky CPS people frown on hauling kids around in a trailer as well.

[REMUS]

I don't know what trailer you mean but I meant one of these:

 

 

A trailer wont knock that much off any car, even fully laiden towing another car my hilux aka tacoma managed 25-6 mpg on a 200 mile round trip.

 

You can fit kids in a normal car you know unless they are really fat... or you have lots

[lug]

I don't know what trailer you mean but I meant one of these: You can fit kids in a normal car you know unless they are really fat... or you have lots

I have 6 and due to tight budgets, they are all skinny.

[REMUS]

Get a mini bus then lol!

 

....I guess lug can have an SUV since he sucks so much