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Theory: Which Scale when?


UK_Lefty

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Posted

I'm trying to get into jazz. I've been trying to learn some fusion stuff but what happens when i get in a room full of jazz muzos and they give me a chart? How do I know which scale to play at which time?

 

I have the books with all the different scales in, its just a matter of when do i use which one?

 

Is this a question that has an actual answer? Like "typically you would use..." or is it a matter of "you use/ don't use whichever scale you want..."

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Posted

 

I'm trying to get into jazz. I've been trying to learn some fusion stuff but what happens when i get in a room full of jazz muzos and they give me a chart? How do I know which scale to play at which time?


I have the books with all the different scales in, its just a matter of when do i use which one?


Is this a question that has an actual answer? Like "typically you would use..." or is it a matter of "you use/ don't use whichever scale you want..."

 

 

You play it in the key it is written and ad lib around the chord structure. It helps to throw in a little of the melody for flavor.

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Posted

Get the Jazz Theory Book. It's pretty much idiot proof.

 

(not sayin' you're an idiot btw ... )

 

Probably best not to *start* with fusion btw, you should try and work your way around a blues chart first. Everybody gotta start somewhere.

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Posted

Ok.... let me try and clarify...

 

Why would I use a Phrygian scale as apposed to a Lydian or Dorian? Do certain scales work best under certain chords?

 

I think that's the question I should have asked at first, apologies!

 

 

 

The whole starting with Fusion has just been me trying to copy licks from the greats. And having a guitard friend who loves fusion guitard...

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Posted

OK if you know the chord stucture you don't even need to know what names to give the scale. I can walk through a jazz number and solo but I don't know what the names of the scales are. Never stuck with me for long.

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Posted

Ok.... let me try and clarify...


Why would I use a Phrygian scale as apposed to a Lydian or Dorian? Do certain scales work best under certain chords?


I think that's the question I should have asked at first, apologies!




The whole starting with Fusion has just been me trying to copy licks from the greats. And having a guitard friend who loves fusion guitard...

 

Oh absolutely! You may want to ask your guitard friend what he opines, instead of the 1000 confusing answers you'll be receiving here over the next few days.

 

IMO the following modes are best for jazz, and/or are most highly used in jazz, in no particular order (although give me time to think about it, or else if someone else wants to chime in, they should be given an order of frequency):

 

1)dorian (b3, b7)

2)lydian (#4)

3)locrian (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

4)harmonic minor scale (b3, b6)

5)melodic minor scale (b3)

6) whole tone scale (#4, #5, b7)

7) dimished scale (b3, b5, b6, natural 6)

8) blues scale (b3, #4, b7)(no 2 or 6)

 

and both the major and minor pentatonic scales

 

I forgot phrygian which is a huge one used in fusion! (b2, b3, b6, b7)

 

Others used in fusion: major, dorian, lydian, locrian (big in fusion too), whole tone and diminished.

 

In other words, learn your modes and ask your fusion buddies what is best when. Then, no problemo, you are a fusion bass god in minutes (or many years).;)

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Posted

Get the book, man.

 

Seriously.

 

Whenever I see theory questions posed on this forum, the replies constitute 80% nonsense, and 20% well-informed information.

 

The Jazz Theory book is great because it presumes no prior knowledge of theory, it goes slow, and it covers (almost) everything, with many MANY examples.

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Posted

Oh absolutely! You may want to ask your guitard friend what he opines, instead of the 1000 confusing answers you'll be receiving here over the next few days.


IMO the following modes are best for jazz, and/or are most highly used in jazz, in no particular order (although give me time to think about it, or else if someone else wants to chime in, they should be given an order of frequency):


1)dorian (b3, b7)

2)lydian (#4)

3)locrian (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

4)harmonic minor scale (b3, b6)

5)melodic minor scale (b3)

6) whole tone scale (#4, #5, b7)

7) dimished scale (b3, b5, b6, natural 6)

8) blues scale (b3, #4, b7)(no 2 or 6)


and both the major and minor pentatonic scales


I forgot phrygian which is a huge one used in fusion! (b2, b3, b6, b7)


Others used in fusion: major, dorian, lydian, locrian (big in fusion too), whole tone and diminished.


In other words, learn your modes and ask your fusion buddies what is best when. Then, no problemo, you are a fusion bass god in minutes (or many years).
;)

 

Mixolydian (over unaltered dominant chords) must be the most common of all the scales and you've omitted it! And the blues scale uses (quite prominently) a natural fourth, it just commonly uses a #4/b5 as a passing note. The diminished scale has a double flatted 7th - not a natural 6th (although they would be enharmonically equivalent) :)

 

Lydian dominant should be useful, as should the altered scale.

 

GET THE BOOK, UK LEFTY!

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Posted

There are a lot of different "rules" to follow depending on the style of Jazz, and the guys you're playing with. What it basically comes down to is... if it sounds good, play it.

 

Either way, a great place to start is to learn your modes. The modes are based diatonically off of the key of the tune. And each mode is a reflection of where you are in that key.

 

Here are the modes in order:

 

Ionian (major scale)

Dorian

Phrygian

Lydian

Mixolydian

Aolian

Locrian

 

Suppose you are playing a tune in the key of C. When you see a "CMaj7" on the chart, you play in the Ionian Mode. When you see a "G7" on the chart, you play the Mixolydian Mode. When you see a "Dm7" on the chart, you will play the Dorian Mode.

 

I could write a book on it. But this is where you need to start if you wish to solo in Jazz. In a lot of ways, Jazz is about breaking the rules. But you need to know the rules before you can break them.

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Before I chimed in, I probably should have asked: What exactly is it you are trying to accomplish? Playing Bass lines? Improvising? Soloing? All of the above?

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Posted

I was just talking about this with my instructor during my lesson yesterday. He said to really learn a jazz tune, you need to learn 4 pieces:

 

1) The Head - This is the melody of the song

2) Comp. - This would be the bassline

3) Arpeggios - Chord tones for every chord in the song

4) Chord Scales - There is a scale related to every chord in the song. The scale is determined by the chord's function in the current tonal center.

 

For example, let's use a major ii-V-I. The ii chord would use a Dorian scale, the V would be Mixolydian and the I would be Ionian. These are the scale functions for each chord in a Major ii-V-I.

 

In a minor ii-V-i, the ii chord would use a Locrian scale, the V chord would most likely be a Mixo b2 b6 (5th mode of the Harmonic minor scale) and the i chord would be the Aeolian scale.

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Posted

im with uk on trying to get more into fusion, heres one suggestion...

 

write down all the scales people are throwing at you, go online and learn them all, you can find them tabbed out on a million different sites...as for theory, ive heard the jazz book is great, i was thinking of buying it the other day, i play guitar as well and got a great book "the guitar handbook" by ralph denyer, there are entire sections on theory, chord structures, etc....

 

im going to get the jazz theory book soon, i do want to know...do you have to read music to understand what is going on or do they have tab as well?

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Posted

 

im going to get the jazz theory book soon, i do want to know...do you have to read music to understand what is going on or do they have tab as well?

 

 

I've never looked through that particular book. But I will say that if you wish to play in Jazz combos... being able to read music (enough to function on your own instrument, anyway) is a fairly important prerequisite.

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Posted

yah being able to read music is important, i feel like its just as important to be able to know which key your playing in and the different scales that work within that key, and most important of all being able to feel your instrument and pick up what the other musicians are feeling/doing...i think it is necessary to read music to be able to sit with a jazz group and play other people's music but if your trying to be creative with a group, i dont think being able to read music is a prerequisite

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Posted

The Jazz Theory Book is written to be applicable to any instrument. Since TAB is useless if you're playing a trumpet or trombone (or sax or ...) the book is in regular music notation. It is written both in treble and bass clef so reading music is necessary to get the most from this book.

 

That being said, you don't need to be able to read at speed since you'll be breaking down the passages in order to understand what's happening. It'll take longer at first but as you read more you'll get better at it.

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Posted

the song will be in a key

the song will be structured around chord progressions

the melody will use most of the notes in the key sig scale

when the melody notes change to suit the chord progressions

you will find in a bar the melody isnt strictly using the chord triad or pentatones

this is jazz..

look for these places and bring out the 'accidentals'

every thing else can be whatever greek name you want to give it

its the melody which governs..imo

and a fine balance with 'irregular' timings

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