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bassman1956

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Posted

House wiring question:

 

The home I'm buying is old enough that the original house is 2-wire romex. Later additions (family room, workshop, 2nd bath in basement) are grounded 3-wire, with grounds going back to the box, which is grounded.

 

But the original house is 2-wire. Which includes kitchen-dining, living room, 3 bedrooms, 1st bath, and garage. There are GFCI's as the recepticals in the kitchen, 1st bath, and garage. But they are not grounded, as like I said, it's all 2-wire. Although the test button on the GFCI's will trip them, the tester that the home inspector had would not.

 

I asked that the GFCI's be fixed with ground wires as a condition of the contract, so that they trip properly. They're giving me and my lawyer info back that the GFCI outlets are fine on 2-wire if they are the first in the chain, or if every one of the chain is a GFCI for later outlets in the chain. They say that furthermore, a tester-tripper won't cause them to trip, but that they'll work perfectly fine if you drop a toaster in the tub with you.

 

My understanding is that GFCI's will not work right with 2-wire systems, period.

 

No guestimates here please. Is there a pro electrician out there who can verify for me what's correct on this?

 

Tanx!

:wave:

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Posted

Not an electrical contractor... but...

 

2-wire is fine as long as it is run through conduit that is properly grounded. The conduit grounds the receptacle box, which in turn grounds the receptacle.

 

Get one of these at Home Depot or Lowes, and it'll tell you if the outlet is wired properly.

 

C100-1292_product.jpg

 

They cost about $10, I think.

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Posted

Not an electrical contractor... but...


2-wire is fine as long as it is run through conduit that is properly grounded. The conduit grounds the receptacle box, which in turn grounds the receptacle.


Get one of these at Home Depot or Lowes, and it'll tell you if the outlet is wired properly.


C100-1292_product.jpg

They cost about $10, I think.

 

 

Thanks. But missed my post entirely though.

 

House has 2-wire romex w/o ground and w/o conduit, with GFCI's. And that tester you show does not make them trip.

 

With this setup, are the GFCI's actually protecting as designed?

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Posted

Thanks. But missed my post entirely though.


House has 2-wire romex w/o ground and w/o conduit, with GFCI's. And that tester you show does not make them trip.


With this setup, are the GFCI's actually protecting as designed?

 

Oh... OK... I've actually never seen (nor heard of) houses being wired with 2-wire romex. So I just assumed it was run through conduit.

 

In that case... better ask an electrical contractor. :D

 

I can't honestly see how a GFCI would work properly without a ground.

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Posted

A GFCI "looks" at the current flowing through the hot and the neutral. If there is an imbalance, because the current has found another path to ground, it trips.

 

It will provide protection on a two wire system, they are correct.

 

 

 

My problem with it is that they upgraded the receptacles to three prong GFCI units without updating the wiring. Most electrical inspectors will frown on that.

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Posted

House wiring question:


The home I'm buying is old enough that the original house is 2-wire romex. Later additions (family room, workshop, 2nd bath in basement) are grounded 3-wire, with grounds going back to the box, which is grounded.


But the original house is 2-wire. Which includes kitchen-dining, living room, 3 bedrooms, 1st bath, and garage. There are GFCI's as the recepticals in the kitchen, 1st bath, and garage. But they are not grounded, as like I said, it's all 2-wire. Although the test button on the GFCI's will trip them, the tester that the home inspector had would not.


I asked that the GFCI's be fixed with ground wires as a condition of the contract, so that they trip properly. They're giving me and my lawyer info back that the GFCI outlets are fine on 2-wire if they are the first in the chain, or if every one of the chain is a GFCI for later outlets in the chain. They say that furthermore, a tester-tripper won't cause them to trip, but that they'll work perfectly fine if you drop a toaster in the tub with you.


My understanding is that GFCI's will not work right with 2-wire systems, period.


No guestimates here please. Is there a pro electrician out there who can verify for me what's correct on this?


Tanx!

:wave:

 

GFCI's sense leakage between the hot and neutral and their use is an accepted method for protecting ungrounded outlets. My house is all knob & tube and I've added GFCI's to the bathroom outlets.

 

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_replacing_wire_ungrounded/

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Posted

 

They say that furthermore, a tester-tripper won't cause them to trip, but that they'll work perfectly fine if you drop a toaster in the tub with you.

 

 

[chanting]

 

Do it! Do it! Do it!

 

[/chanting]

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Posted

 

My problem with it is that they upgraded the receptacles to three prong GFCI units without updating the wiring. Most electrical inspectors will frown on that.

 

 

It's allowed in the NEC and not disallowed by local codes here. The outlet needs to be labled as ungrounded.

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Posted

 

They say that furthermore, a tester-tripper won't cause them to trip, but that they'll work perfectly fine if you drop a toaster in the tub with you.

 

 

I would ask them to test that theory.

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Posted

My problem with it is that they upgraded the receptacles to three prong GFCI units without updating the wiring. Most electrical inspectors will frown on that.

 

They did a lot of that in the rush to turn old run-down apartment buildings into condominiums during the housing boom. New paint, new countertops, new light fixtures and new three-prong outlets. No real upgrades or modernization to the electrical or plumbing systems whatsoever - just make it look there was.

 

I think I would be a good real estate baron. :evil:

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Posted

 

It's allowed in the NEC and not disallowed by local codes here. The outlet needs to be labled as ungrounded.

 

 

That's why I said that they'd frown on it, rather than say they will fail it. It's perfectly legal as long as it's labeled, but it's still a bull{censored} thing to do.

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Posted

Thanks all! This post and link from MHD helped the most, and explains how and why it still works. You're right though, I still want ground wires. BUT, that's beyond the scope of the current contract, and I'll see about adding it over the years.

 

 

 

GFCI's sense leakage between the hot and neutral and their use is an accepted method for protecting ungrounded outlets. My house is all knob & tube and I've added GFCI's to the bathroom outlets.


 

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Posted

 

Thanks all! This post and link from MHD helped the most, and explains how and why it still works. You're right though, I still want ground wires. BUT, that's beyond the scope of the current contract, and I'll see about adding it over the years.

 

 

Couple things:

 

You really should contact the authority having jurisdiction over this house...a fire marshall, building inspector, etc. and ask what the *local* code requires. The local code is the law, and there are many codes that require home sales to have current code-compliant wiring. DO NOT count on a home inspector to know anything about this...it's tough enough to stay on top of the code for one jurisdiction, let alone every one he ever inspected a house in.

 

GFCI's will indeed function correctly without a ground. They must be labeled as ungrounded at the outlet.

 

You probably do want grounded circuits...not merely some ground wires added, which is pretty much never code-compliant. But this requires complete replacement of the circuit wiring, and is very costly and may really disrupt your home in order to gain access to run the cables. If the house has metal conduit DO NOT attempt to add grounding by using the conduit as the ground path. This is not compliant, as conduit has many mechanical connection points, and each will corrode over time, destroying the ground path's integrity.

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Posted

To do that usually means a complete internal demolition, all wallboard & floorboard removed so those things can be done. It's cost-prohibitive and not necessary.

They did a lot of that in the rush to turn old run-down apartment buildings into condominiums during the housing boom. New paint, new countertops, new light fixtures and new three-prong outlets. No real upgrades or modernization to the electrical or plumbing systems whatsoever - just make it look there was.


I think I would be a good real estate baron.
:evil:

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Posted

 

To do that usually means a complete internal demolition, all wallboard & floorboard removed so those things can be done. It's cost-prohibitive and not necessary.

 

 

 

A couple of good electricians with a fish tape can do the job without demolishing anything, in most cases.

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Posted

 

in teh bathroom/kitchen there SHOULD be a ground wire anchored to metal plumbing





I'm just sayin'........

 

 

Electric codes vary from place to place....place being the town, city, county, etc. that has authority.

 

Metal plumbing is not used as the primary grounding electrode. It can be part of a bonding system (keeping metal parts at the same potential as the grounding system) or as a secondary grounding electrode, but its use has fallen out of favor, especially as so many buildings no longer use copper piping. Another potentially big problem is that the copper often ends at the point the pipes exit the building...you don't know what's on the other side of the wall...could be copper, could be galvanized, could be plastic. This also applies to using gas lines, and some utilities prohibit the use of gas lines as part of the grounding electrode system.

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Posted

 

A couple of good electricians with a fish tape can do the job without demolishing anything, in most cases.

 

 

One issue that comes up with this type of rewire is that some codes limit the amount of unsecured hidden wiring in a building. They'll allow addition of circuits and some repairs, but a complete rewire can sometimes require that all conduit or cable be secured according to the usual code requirements. Again, all depends on the local code.

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Posted

One issue that comes up with this type of rewire is that some codes limit the amount of unsecured hidden wiring in a building. They'll allow addition of circuits and some repairs, but a complete rewire can sometimes require that all conduit or cable be secured according to the usual code requirements. Again, all depends on the local code.

 

Yep.

 

Always check the local codes with a certified electrician.

 

 

Although, I'd feel safer in a house with a complete attic run rewire with 14/3 romex unsecured in the walls than I would in a house that has 50 year old ungrounded cloth wrapped aluminum wires anchored throughout. ;)

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Posted

Exactly correct. Thank you.

 

One issue that comes up with this type of rewire is that some codes limit the amount of unsecured hidden wiring in a building. They'll allow addition of circuits and some repairs, but a complete rewire can sometimes require that all conduit or cable be secured according to the usual code requirements. Again, all depends on the local code.

 

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Posted

 

...If the house has metal conduit DO NOT attempt to add grounding by using the conduit as the ground path. This is not compliant, as conduit has many mechanical connection points, and each will corrode over time, destroying the ground path's integrity.

 

 

Actually, anywhere around here (here being where me and Bassman both live) metal conduit is the standard accepted method of grounding back to the box. The only time I ever see a ground wire is with grounded romex (obviously). Romex itself is o.k. in some towns around here but not in others.....

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Posted

 

Actually, anywhere around here (here being where me and Bassman both live) metal conduit is the standard accepted method of grounding back to the box. The only time I ever see a ground wire is with grounded romex (obviously). Romex itself is o.k. in some towns around here but not in others.....

 

 

Metal conduit in the home? That's a new one on me. Never seen that. I've seen the Romex in older homes.

 

Huh.

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