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GBE600, the Soundguy and Me


Thunderbroom

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So you're claiming it's rare for a bassist to use EQ on his amp? Or a band play too loudly? Surely you jest.


However, even a flat EQ in the bass preamp can fatten the tone too much for FOH. Depends on the amp.


The point is that players and sound guys alike need to be flexible and willing to accomodate each other. It's supposed to be a cooperative effort to put out a good product for the paying audience. Stubborness on anyone's part will adversely affect this effort.

No one disagrees with you there Craigv. I think we're all saying that is not what we do.

 

I never go into a situation and butt heads with a soundman.

 

 

Ok.....once, back in the 80's, I played a room that had electronic drums to keep volumes down. There was this low end feedback that the soundman insisted was the bass rig. I told him repeatedly it wasn't me, it was his EQ.

 

I was using a GK 200 MB then. He insisted on me using a DI, and I complied, but whn he started freaking out about the feedback, and blaiming me, I took his DI and threw it at him. Now, with my bass completely out of the mix, here comes the low end feedback. I stopped the band at the end of my song, apologized for my tantrum, but then told him since bass was not in the PA last song, perhaps you'll take a look at whats actually causing that feedback. Need some help?

 

We got along famously after that! :D

 

But my point is, do the research. Find out what your bass sounds like thru FOH, and be cooperative with the soundman, and it'll all be fine.

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That's tough. Use a parametric at the FOH to cut some signal at 150. That's part of what a sound man is supposed to get paid for.

 

 

Point being that it's easier, and more effective, to work with both a pre- and a post- signal, than to try to back out a poorly-EQ'd signal.

 

And for whatever it's worth, isn't this simply a discussion of what makes for a good feed to the FOH. I don't see where the negativity ("That's tough") is coming into it.

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The point is that players and sound guys alike need to be flexible and willing to accomodate each other. It's supposed to be a cooperative effort to put out a good product for the paying audience. Stubborness on anyone's part will adversely affect this effort.

 

 

+1, you have to be flexible

 

At my band's last gig, I went FOH via a Behringer DI box. After our set the bassist from the other band came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'

 

The gig before that, I went FOH via the DI out (pre-EQ) on my amp. After our set the bassist from one of the other bands came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'

 

And the time before that, I went FOH via the DI out on an Ashdown combo that was supplied by the venue. After our set the bassist from one of the other bands came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'

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It's your opinion that it is more effective. The point being, I've heard plenty of guitards come through FOH sounding like crap. There is no question whether or not to take them pre/post. Their tone is their tone. It's the same with bassists. It's not a sound guy's job to get what they THINK is the best signal. It's their job to get the signal the ARTIST wishes to convey and do their best to fit that in the mix. If the bassist's signal is poorly eq'd that's the band's fault, not the sound person's. As is, the predominant attitude of a sound guy thinking he's going to do things a certain way and the ARTIST even needing to have a discussion with him is ridiculous. It's a virus within the Live Sound community that needs to go away.


 

 

Nobody is saying the artist's tone is wrong. I'm only discussing methods to *get* that tone to the room. I don't see why there's any issue with what signals I take from the stage if they don't interfere with the artist. Neither an instrument DI, nor an amp DI, nor a cabinet mic will have any affect on the bass's stage tone. So what's the problem?

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+1, you have to be flexible


At my band's last gig, I went FOH via a Behringer DI box. After our set the bassist from the other band came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'


The gig before that, I went FOH via the DI out (pre-EQ) on my amp. After our set the bassist from one of the other bands came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'


And the time before that, I went FOH via the DI out on an Ashdown combo that was supplied by the venue. After our set the bassist from one of the other bands came up to me and said '{censored} your bass sounds awesome!'

 

Obviously, that guy was subjected to long periods of lug MP3's. The brown stains on his pants, bloodshot eyes, and bleeding ears should have been your first clues..........;)

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I barely touch the EQ on my GBE750 except in those strange room situations where you need to adjust. But I ask every soundmen to use the DI on the amp because I can switch channels a couple of times during the gig ie, tube channel for rock songs, ss channel for funk and RnB and sometimes both channels during other songs. I think it allows me to stay above the mix. No one compained about the DI on the amp.

 

 

Thank-you. Reading this thread, I was wondering when someone was going to mention this. I use every preamp feature on my GBE600 and GBE750. I use the channel changing, all the EQ presets AND the mute. Different songs call for different tones. I use a chorus pedal sometimes too. If you're going direct from the bass how do you hear EFX?

 

Tell a guitar player he has to go direct and see what happens. The explosion would be truly memorable. It's a simplistic assumption on the part of some soundmen that bass all sounds the same. I think it's because they make it sound all the same, they assume it starts off that way.

 

The first rehearsal that our soundman asked me to go direct, I was totally messed up. The FOH mains were too far in front for me to hear them and all I heard was the sub. My BE strings boomed and I couldn't hear the AD or G strings for the life of me. I went along with it because he said it was "easier". Plus, the Yorville passive DI he was using, loaded the volume control on my Lakland Skyline 55-01 in such a way that the volume was almost completely ON, or completely OFF, with hardly any gradual variation in between. It was very weird. This has never happened on my Radial Engineering Pro D2, but it sure did on the Yorkville DI.

 

I asked nicely and he promised that he will try to use the DI out on my Genz Benz heads and see how that works. The point that sold him though was the fact that I couldn't use my mute to tune in between songs. Our first gig, I was seriously going out of tune by the end of the first set as the room warmed up.

 

Some bassists do have a one-tone "set and forget" sound. Others (including myself) do not. We use the controls on the preamp and EFX to add variety and different tonal colours depending on the song.

 

It must be confusing for some soundmen. They know that ALL guitarists are obsessive compulsive neurotics about their tone and for the most part just mic the cabs. But only SOME bassists have the same requirements, so I have some empathy for their predicament.

 

Bass and guitar are different from keys or other electronic instruments like drum machines or samplers that have all of their tone "in the box". The different components of the guitar / pre-amp / EFX loop / amp / speaker cabinet form a system that, in its entirety comprises the tone of the electric bass instrument. To circumvent the majority of the signal chain by patching in right after the guitar / bass is just lazy, and then to blame any subsequent anomalies that happen on the musician is just sad.

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...I've heard plenty of guitards come through FOH sounding like crap. There is no question whether or not to take them pre/post. Their tone is their tone.

 

 

i have experienced this regularly at church, where the guitar player usually plays through a miked amp. one does so in conjunction with a POD Live. his tone sucks at least half the time. but bass is expected to go direct, presumably because there is wash from the stage.

 

we recently held a concert with an amalgamation of different praise bands -- we have three or four that play regularly. all the singers and multiple guitar players were used, but the same bass player and drummer were used. i guess it's easier from a production standpoint.

 

but i think historically it has been difficult enough just to reproduce bass frequencies that a culture developed where bass is the sound person's responsibility, not the player's. of course, there's also a lot more vectors for damaging the PA with bass than there is with guitar. perhaps your tone doesn't cut in a meaningful way, but the subs don't have enough power to really bring your tone up in the mix the way you can in the rehearsal room or on stage.

 

i guess i'm not that consumed with tone. i mean, i love playing through my amp because it sounds a lot better. maybe it's because my EQ is largely flat and i'd rather not carry my amp to church, but the DI tone doesn't really bother me enough to jump through the hoops that guitar players will.

 

church is also a different beast. i would be really excited to play with a sound tech who wanted to both mic and go direct with bass. i love how my amp and cabinet sound, and i know my tone is mix-friendly, and i think it'd sound way better to do both, even if it took more than 20 seconds to dial in the tone.

 

robb.

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When a sound guy has never mixed a band before or heard a band before, how can they possibly know what the bassist wants and what the best way to get that sound to FOH? They need to learn how to ask and provide what the artist asks for. If the artist doesn't care, then by all means take instrument DI to FOH. It shouldn't take a persuasive discussion by the bassist (no matter how pleasant) for the sound guy to try something the artist is asking for.

 

Why do you keep bringing up these issues with me? I and others have repeatedly mentioned cooperation among all parties. I've never suggested or remotely implied that any sound guy would know what a bassist wants without asking.

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Why do you keep bringing up these issues with me?

Probably because you keep quoting my posts in an attempt to contradict that post eq is the way to go. You also keep bypassing my point that the sound man needs to be more cooperative with the artist than the artist does with the sound man.

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It's been fairly clearly stated in this thread by more than just me, so let me rephrase it as a question. Are sound men taking a signal from the guitard before his amp as well as post?

I'm sure it does happen a lot. If the artist wants and likes a smiley face eq, that's what should be at the FOH. Is it supposed to sound how a sound man thinks a bass should sound or how the artist thinks it should?


I know you'd like to say looking at an amp that you could tell what the eq is. I bet you don't know one of my amps enough to know that even though it appears that the mid is dimed, it's actually passive, so setting it at 12 o'clock rolls back the mid to provide the classic smiley face eq.

I'm not missing it at all -

1) What happens when I show up with a Boss GT-6B and that's all I have. With all that EQ I have programmed, a sound man has to work with what's provided. That's what I'm suggesting. A soundman needs to work with what the bassist provides.

2) One of the 2 sends you're asking for (instrument or pre) doesn't contain the proper information myself and many other bassists want represented at FOH. It allows the sound man to disregard the tonal information I want sent to the audience and instead provide what the sound man thinks a bass should sound like to the audience. Not only that, but by taking pre, the sound man just bypassed my effects. Just as you mention the smiley face eq happens a lot, I have copies of board mixes to prove that the 2 signals is a bogus trick used by sound men to keep bassists content, when in reality they want to pre signal to get a basic dub dub, because bass is for the dub. It happens a lot. Often times it happens under the premise of "Let me do this, so if there's a problem I have another signal." No more from me.


Probably because you keep quoting my posts in an attempt to contradict that post eq is the way to go. You also keep bypassing my point that the sound man needs to be more cooperative with the artist than the artist does with the sound man.

 

 

All I've suggested is the fact that PA's don't reproduce the amp's sound the same as you'll hear on stage. A clean bass signal can help clean up the mud, the dub as you call it, that often winds up in the house mix, which usually is decidedly NOT what the artist wants. It could be EQ'd out, but depending on the amount of EQ I'm compensating for, I'll be introducing even more phase problems than what the amp's EQ created.

 

Regarding what I'd do if presented with the GT-6B; I'd take the two signals it provides...the clean DI and the effected output. No problem at all.

 

You're right that I'm bypassing the cooperation issue; it's your issue, not mine. I've never had a problem working with any bands.

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yes

false. I've had a few who walk right up to the back of my amp and plug in without so much as a question. I applaud them.

There are others here who agree with me. It's a matter of opinion.

 

 

And how many years have you been a soundman? And please tell me about your PA. The fact of the matter is too many bass players show up with cheap bass amps that are not EQed for a live setting. It might sound fine at home but not at a gig. And if your soundman has a choice he will take the pre signal or use a DI.

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And how many years have you been a soundman? And please tell me about your PA. The fact of the matter is too many bass players show up with cheap bass amps that are not EQed for a live setting. It might sound fine at home but not at a gig. And if your soundman has a choice he will take the pre signal or use a DI.

I use Mesa gear. If you don't know, Mesa isn't cheap stuff. My personal PA (Soundcraft and Yorkville) isn't on trial here, as I use it running my own band only. I have more than enough experience operating other's boards and stage managing in the public arena, unless you don't want to count the past 20 years as experience between theater, houses of worship and live bands. In case you don't know, a stage manager is over the sound crew. I'm quite comfortable in my experience on the production end, since I've been involved in all phases at one time or another.;)

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agedhorse, i believe you work for gb and would be great to answer my question, ive got a gig fri nite, use the gbe 600 and ive recently been using the lf extend (set around 10 oclock)...u think running the di post eq, that it will produce to omuch low end for the pa? its a good sized venue and will be using my whole stack, 4x10 and 2x12....any suggestions?

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That's probably ok, keep your eq reasonably conservative and it shouldn't be a problem but ask the sound guy if it's working for him. If not, give him a pre out and then deal with your stage sound yourself.

 

A PA system with subs is very different, the sound guy will likely need a different eq than you use to get the same sound. He is working with different tools.

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