Members Funkee1 Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 Mark, I want to talk about you sending a post EQ line to the board. I understand the concept of not trusting the sound man implicitly, but what happens when you send a post EQ signal? He still has final say on the mix unless you are going to be playing standing right next to him with a ruler ready to smack his knuckles. In my experience, he still is going to do some tweaking 99% of the time; he is still going to do things his way, because he can and should - that's his job. So now that you are sending it post EQ, he is working with a signal that has already been shaped. What happens if he starts booting what you've cut and cutting what you've boosted? It ain't quite that serious, but since I have been a soundman, it is my belief that you get the best FOH sound if the signal you're being sent sounds good to begin with. I am not gonna sit next to the soundman and say "My sound is perfect! don't touch thoose knobs!!!" but by the same token, if I am sending a good sound, he has no reason to twiddle with those knobs, so my sending him an already EQ'ed signal makes his life easier. Having said that, however, I am the easiest person in a band for a soundman to work with. I just want to be able to hear myself, both vocally and bass-wise. I generally trust the FOH man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 2, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 What all of you post-EQ guys are forgetting is that the room doesn't sound like the stage. If you only provide a post- signal to the FOH, you're cutting the sound guy off at the knees. But hey, it's *your* sound..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 2, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 Soundguys like to do things the same way for everyone. It makes them feel like they're in control. All blacks like watermelon, and white men can't jump. Or are we both generalizing? The sound guy *is* supposed to be in control of what he's responsible for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkee1 Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 All blacks like watermelon, and white men can't jump. Or are we both generalizing? The sound guy *is* supposed to be in control of what he's responsible for. Again, I know what I like, and it is my goal to make the soundmans job as easy as possible. If you know what makes your bass sound good, and you give it to him, he doesn't haveto do anything but plug a cable in and go, and thats what I do. And yes! It's a generalization, but its generally true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 That's easy. The soundguy doesn't know jack about your band and where you fit in the mix. Imagine Geddy Lee or Chris Squire getting it on with a soundguy at a venue they never played. "Hey, Getty. I'm just gonna DI you straight off your bass." POST EQ everytime, either DI or mic. My tone is my business, not the sound guy's. It's the job of the sound guy to fit my tone in the mix. Just like a guitard, tone comes from technique, picks/instrument and amp/speakers. Train the sound guys right for those of us who actually do care about our tone getting to the audience. If you were to change your cabs from the 212 to, say, an 8x10, would your EQ settings change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 2, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 Again, I know what I like, and it is my goal to make the soundmans job as easy as possible. If you know what makes your bass sound good, and you give it to him, he doesn't haveto do anything but plug a cable in and go, and thats what I do. And yes! It's a generalization, but its generally true! But to reiterate my first post, what makes your bass sound good on stage is not what makes it sound good through the PA and into the room. If you give a post-EQ signal only, you've got way too much low end mid for the PA. He can possibly EQ that out, but it still sacrifices the quality of the low end. That's just one possible problem. A better solution is typically a clean instrument DI and either a post-EQ direct or a mic on the cab. This allows the sound guy to mix enough of your intended stage sound with the clean bass signal to get a good room mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members catphish Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 The sound guy is there because he knows the system, knows the room, and nows how to make it sound good. Nothing more than a very brief chat about the general tone of the band and individual instruments is necessary for us. If a sound guy has a DI he's familiar with then I'd let him use the gear he knows best. If it's the first time we're working with a guy, I too will wander out front and make sure the FOH sound is something we are happy with. There is rarely a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkee1 Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 But to reiterate my first post, what makes your bass sound good on stage is not what makes it sound good through the PA and into the room. If you give a post-EQ signal only, you've got way too much low end mid for the PA. He can possibly EQ that out, but it still sacrifices the quality of the low end. That's just one possible problem.A better solution is typically a clean instrument DI and either a post-EQ direct or a mic on the cab. This allows the sound guy to mix enough of your intended stage sound with the clean bass signal to get a good room mix. I got that. However, you miss 3 critical points. 1) I like my stage sound, and believe it gives the best chance for him to mix out front. 2) I said, more than once, that i do what the soundman suggests. I am not so married to my stage sound that I don't let the soundman do his job... 3) I said, repeatedly, I bring a DI, or let the soundman use his DI, or send a post EQ signal, or let him mic the cab. I do whatever it takes to get a good front of house mix. As I go from room to room, I let the sound person decide what is going to achieve the best mix, and sometimes the decision is "let's just let that bad ass cab you have carry the bass". Whatever works. Be a team player. And Craigv....... Reading is fundamental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Robin Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 ...A better solution is typically a clean instrument DI and either a post-EQ direct or a mic on the cab. This allows the sound guy to mix enough of your intended stage sound with the clean bass signal to get a good room mix.Works for me when I'm mixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 2, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 1) I like my stage sound, and believe it gives the best chance for him to mix out front.And Craigv....... Reading is fundamental. I read. I'm addressing what you're claiming in point 1. Your stage sound is not usually what sounds best in the room. If you can mix the stage sound with a clean DI, you can usually get a similar sound to your stage sound. But simply putting the stage sound alone into the PA is usually a disaster. There are a lot of exceptions, and agreed....it's about teamwork. If everyone cooperates and has the same goals, there's rarely a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brake Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 Last night my band played at a new venue. When the soundguy came up to the stage, I asked him to use the DI on my amp. He told me he never uses the DI's on bass heads because they're all noisy. He then proceed to call out brands that he's had problems with: GK, Ampeg and Fender to name a few. I told him this head was none of the above and that the DI was dead silent. I told him if he did get any noise that it wasn't coming from my DI as I'd experienced this same discussion with other soundguys. I got a smirk from him at this point though the exchange between us was very cordial. When we soundchecked, all he could say was "the bass sounds GREAT". On a side note, this was probably the first time I couldn't hear myself clearly on stage from my rig. We were not that loud either. It was frustrating as I had to rely on listening to the mains to hear myself. The soundguy had never run sound for a country band, admittedly, and had a bit of trouble adjusting. Our first set sounded like a dub/house mix. Despite the crazy-ass weather yesterday, we still had a decent crowd at this place who didn't want us to stop. In his defense, the DI out on 99.99% of amp heads is garbage. Who puts a DI in an amp but no ground lift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brake Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 +1.My new band has a soundguy that comes with us gig to gig, and he likes my Yorkie DI just fine. Wow, really? Those are ones I avoid like the plague. I haven't dealt with one that hasn't been hissy and noisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thumper Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 I've tried the DI on the Traynor YBA 200 and it is a bit noisy. I either mic the 1x15 cab or go bass > Radial JDI > Traynor. I'd love to try mixing both signal s some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted December 2, 2007 Author Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 In his defense, the DI out on 99.99% of amp heads is garbage. Who puts a DI in an amp but no ground lift? I'm not sure about your question. Both my GB heads have a ground lift for the DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members brake Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 I'm not sure about your question. Both my GB heads have a ground lift for the DI. Oh, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Most of the amps that I've tried to use the DI out on have buzzed like crazy but didn't have ground lifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted December 2, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 2, 2007 Most of the amps that I've tried to use the DI out on have buzzed like crazy but didn't have ground lifts.Any higher end head such as GB, Mesa and a lot more all have ground lifts. As far as noise, I've yet to encounter that problem with any of the amps I have used that have DI's. It's just as simple for the sound person to disable pin 1 (I think that's the one) for the ground lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted December 2, 2007 Members Share Posted December 2, 2007 What all of you post-EQ guys are forgetting is that the room doesn't sound like the stage. If you only provide a post- signal to the FOH, you're cutting the sound guy off at the knees. But hey, it's *your* sound..... +1 I always give the soundman a pre-EQ signal I know I will sound amazing, because I am an amazing person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted December 3, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2007 What all of you post-EQ guys are forgetting is that the room doesn't sound like the stage. If you only provide a post- signal to the FOH, you're cutting the sound guy off at the knees. But hey, it's *your* sound.....Bullocks. If a bassist is making drastic eq changes because of a stage that affect FOH, either that band plays too loud or the bassist isn't comfortable with what his bass tone is. Lest all the effects run that mess with tone/eq/signal to FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 Any higher end head such as GB, Mesa and a lot more all have ground lifts. As far as noise, I've yet to encounter that problem with any of the amps I have used that have DI's. It's just as simple for the sound person to disable pin 1 (I think that's the one) for the ground lift. Even my Peavey has a ground lift And yep, it is pin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members turcmic Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 I barely touch the EQ on my GBE750 except in those strange room situations where you need to adjust. But I ask every soundmen to use the DI on the amp because I can switch channels a couple of times during the gig ie, tube channel for rock songs, ss channel for funk and RnB and sometimes both channels during other songs. I think it allows me to stay above the mix. No one compained about the DI on the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkee1 Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 Right! Plus, I have spent a lot of time in front of my speakers, making sure the EQ I use DOES sound great in the FOH, and continue to do so. That's part of being a good musician. I think any bassist whose rig doesn't sound exactly the same thru his rig as it does thru FOH, He needs to go l;isten again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members der oxenrig Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 I have a simple solution: use a gigantic wall of amps, crank that {censored} up, and just use the PA for vocals and drums only. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Robin Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 I have a simple solution: use a gigantic wall of amps, crank that {censored} up, and just use the PA for vocals and drums only. Problem solved. :DMy late 70's board tapes will attest to that alright! :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mlwarriner Posted December 3, 2007 Members Share Posted December 3, 2007 because of the nature of my overall rig (bass through pedals split into bass stack and guitar stack), i *try* to get the soundguy to mic both of my cabs, but if he's not down, or (as is the case in many venues around here) if he just doesn't have the equipment to pull it off, we generally DI straight off of the head. before i started the hydra-rig thing, they just usually pulled the DI off of my wireless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 3, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 3, 2007 Bullocks. If a bassist is making drastic eq changes because of a stage that affect FOH, either that band plays too loud or the bassist isn't comfortable with what his bass tone is. Lest all the effects run that mess with tone/eq/signal to FOH. So you're claiming it's rare for a bassist to use EQ on his amp? Or a band play too loudly? Surely you jest. However, even a flat EQ in the bass preamp can fatten the tone too much for FOH. Depends on the amp. The point is that players and sound guys alike need to be flexible and willing to accomodate each other. It's supposed to be a cooperative effort to put out a good product for the paying audience. Stubborness on anyone's part will adversely affect this effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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