Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 I think punk is what you make of it, Social Distortion doesn't sound very punk to me more sort of soft rock, with punky bass lines? Saying that I listen to allot of hardcore like Bad Brains and Teen Idles, so I tend to think of punk in that vein which is fast, unrefined and nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitargod0dmw Posted January 4, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 more sort of soft rock Huh? When I think soft rock it's like Air Supply, Kenny G, Chicago, Barry Manilow, and guys like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 hard rock then I guess I have different preconceived notions (so to me that sounds like soft rock) when it comes to music, since I used to be heavily into extreme metal, but you are right. Classifying artists into a genre is always hard, really hard... since everyone is coming from their own angle especially on a forum since the debate is usually less rational due to the influx of so many participants, of which the majority usually pass a comment and don't continue their argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 78pbass Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Saying that I listen to allot of hardcore like Bad Brains and Teen Idles, so I tend to think of punk in that vein which is fast, unrefined and nasty. that's because that's hardcore. Punk is about paving your own road, doing it your way, and not being molded by external forces. By that definition, SD is definitely punk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 that's because that's hardcore. Punk is about paving your own road, doing it your way, and not being molded by external forces. By that definition, SD is definitely punk. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 that's because that's hardcore. Punk is about paving your own road, doing it your way, and not being molded by external forces. By that definition, SD is definitely punk. That is a rather romantic notion... I don't feel that is the case because no belief, culture or system has exclusive and single minded collective thought processes, prehaps in some cases your definition has relevance or is in-fact correct.... but is CERTAINLY not relivant the majority of punk, but that is what most bands have to do anyway in reguard to "paving your own road, doing it your way". You make Punk sound like a left wing faction of the borg that will have to be ever evolving and changing because there can be no constant, there can be no status quo because by your 'definition' that wouldn't be punk also by your definition, the artists would have to be completely enclosed to be unaffected by 'external forces'!? Sounds like a cult to me This is my favourite definition/history; There's no shortage of people wanting to claim punk as their own so here's an attempt to trace its roots. You'll meet some surprising people, weird bands, scary people and probably disagree with a lot of what I say but do I care ? Do I f**k ! Coz this basically is a chance for me to present some of the music that I love listening to and sometimes take the piss. Its also an attempt to put the UK punk scene in some sort of context instead of just an isolated style. usic can be beautiful, music can be throw away.. the stuff we sing in showers. It can be dancey and be so positive. I like all that but like a lot of others I'm drawn to the negative possibilities of rock'n'roll. I'm drawn to the Nihilism and iconoclasm of rock. Big words but what do they mean ? Iconoclasm is the desire to smash all that's gone before and kill your idols and Nihilism is the rejection of current moral and established beliefs without offering or seeking solutions to change it. Its the domain of the young who hope to die before they get old. In short its saying 'f**k you!' which we have all done at some time. As we look down the last 50 years all the good bands have embraced nihilism and still do. It links the Who to The Pistols to Nirvana. From My Generation to Pretty Vacant to Smells Like Teen Spirit the leap ain't that great. And why should they offer solutions ? The world will never change from a song. As Rotten once sang ..."Anger is an energy"... All these great songs by these bands have been simple, direct and infused with for want of a better phrase 'teen spirit'. Its why these bands live on because when you first pick up a guitar these are the songs you can play quickly and identify with. You try playing along to Zeppelins 'Achilles Last Stand' maaaaaan !!!!! No matter how angry or politicised you are though its the music that's counts and trouble always comes when people confuse music and politics or try and read too much into a band and its output (hi Charlie Manson to name but one). Nearly every band in the world has just wanted one thing and that is to make music and music needs at least one listener whether to hate it or like it (even these arty bands). The artist is stuck really. Bands want in varying amounts the following: to make records that sell, fame and fortune, a career, to mean something, to be recognised, drugs and women and a rock star lifestyle. Often when they get it they implode ( Sid Vicious, Kurt Cobain) or struggle to come to terms (The Who), or make a career (Stones) pass out of view as fashions change (Stranglers), change direction (U2) realise they have nothing more to offer (Eater) or go too far (Hendrix, Brian Jones ad infinitum) The problem most bands have found however is that you can only be angry for so long and what do you do afterwards before you become boring. The best bands have been short and sweet and then f****d off. Its hard being a rebel inside the machine. If you want to get your message across then you have to be in the machine and you have to play the game and the game changes all the time...Who's controlling who ? McLaren's incendiary publicity techniques are now part of the publicists armoury. You can't be a rebel and win... I'm sorry to say. You can win little battles but you still need to sell records and so you lose the war. Crass came close tho I'll dispute they were musical but how did they finish ? Bankrupted because they forgot to charge VAT. What a revolution ! Messages stink in music.... anger and frustration is a common currency and the best punk toons have them. But lets face it we need all the crap in music and all the varied sounds and images coz then the good stuff stands out. I'd hate to have punk every day. Variety really is the spice of life. So where did it all start then..... well f**k The Stooges and f**k the Dolls ....lets go back to the beginning..... Inside each part is a wealth of information with links to more detailed pages on some of the bands and subcultures. Continue your reading on http://www.punk77.co.uk/ if you are interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 78pbass Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 OK, Mr. Literal. I ont know what punk is, but I know what isn't. H'bout that? I can easily go from romantic to elitist. Further, the above diatribe needs punk-tuation to be intelligible. Some of the points are salient, some are far reaching and all of it is rife with self-ingratiation for being the answer to a rhetorical question. The end result is like the Billy Joe quote above. The leaders that make this music their own way are punks, the imitators are posers, and the ones that make the music fresh, rejuvenated and return its purpose are leaders once again. That's why The Stooges are punk and Nu-Wave was not, why Social Distortion and Clash are, as are Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Bad Religion, NOFX, and Rancid, but not Green Day, Ataris and Blink aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members baracuda2004 Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 rancid i'd say so.... social distortion is more like... if johnny cash was punk/swing whatever that means well it's hard to explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 rancid i'd say so.... social distortion is more like... if johnny cash was punk/swing whatever that means well it's hard to explain Mike Ness, the punk Johnny Cash. Not a bad description really, and one that would no doubt make Mike smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One Bad Monkey Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Mike Ness, the punk Johnny Cash. Not a bad description really, and one that would no doubt make Mike smile. Have you heard Ness' two solo albums (Cheating at Solitaire and Under the Influences)? The country honky tonk influence is rampant on both; great albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Have you heard Ness' two solo albums (Cheating at Solitaire and Under the Influences)? The country honky tonk influence is rampant on both; great albums. Yeah, I own them both. Great albums for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poltergeist Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Mike Ness, the punk Johnny Cash. Not a bad description really, and one that would no doubt make Mike smile. i definitly agree with that... ... in his solo albums he made some country covers.... my favorite off of those is "Alone & Forsaken"... an Hank Williams cover he made... i also love Hank Williams, but that cover is just amazing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 OK, Mr. Literal. I ont know what punk is, but I know what isn't. H'bout that? I can easily go from romantic to elitist. Further, the above diatribe needs punk-tuation to be intelligible. Some of the points are salient, some are far reaching and all of it is rife with self-ingratiation for being the answer to a rhetorical question. The end result is like the Billy Joe quote above. The leaders that make this music their own way are punks, the imitators are posers, and the ones that make the music fresh, rejuvenated and return its purpose are leaders once again. That's why The Stooges are punk and Nu-Wave was not, why Social Distortion and Clash are, as are Dead Kennedys, Descendents, Bad Religion, NOFX, and Rancid, but not Green Day, Ataris and Blink aren't. Well, I disagree even further. This is an discussion that is never ending, I listen to Social Distortion and I don't hear punk. I hear hard rock with a punky bass line I've never heard punk described like you do, you seem to be just descibeing ANY trendsetter in any genre This is punk: In its original nature, the punk culture has been primarily concerned with individual freedom, which tends to create beliefs in concepts such as individualism, anti-authoritarianism, anarchism and free thought. Punk ideologies have often included a critical view of the world; seeing modern day societies as placing extensive limits on humanity. Punk ideologies are usually expressed through punk rock music, punk zines, independently-published literature and spoken word recordings. Punk culture originated as a movement of shock, rebellion, and discontent; and from certain points-of-view, it has evolved into an overt socio-political movement. Lyrically, punk bands often express discontent with the individuals and institutions that influence society. The political ideology most often associated with punk is anarchism, however punk has also been associated with other leftist ideologies such as social liberalism, socialism and communism. Despite the association that punk ideologies have with the left wing, some punks perceive the efforts of leftists as ineffectual, and sometimes just as objectionable as the right wing. Right-wing ideologies have appeared within punk culture, including conservatism and neo-Nazism. Philosophical ideologies within the punk subculture include atheism, agnosticism and humanism, as well as religious ones such as Christianity, Islam, the Rastafari movement and the Hare Krishna movement (especially amongst 1980s straight edge scene), which often overlap onto a punk's political beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock : The first wave of punk rock aimed to be aggressively modern, distancing itself from the bombast and sentimentality of early 1970s rock.[2] According to Ramones drummer Tommy Ramone, "In its initial form, a lot of [1960s] stuff was innovative and exciting. Unfortunately, what happens is that people who could not hold a candle to the likes of Hendrix started noodling away. Soon you had endless solos that went nowhere. By 1973, I knew that what was needed was some pure, stripped down, no bull{censored} rock 'n' roll."[3] John Holmstrom, founding editor of Punk magazine recalls feeling "punk rock had to come along because the rock scene had become so tame that [acts] like Billy Joel and Simon and Garfunkel were being called rock and roll, when to me and other fans, rock and roll meant this wild and rebellious music."[4] In critic Robert Christgau's description, "It was also a subculture that scornfully rejected the political idealism and Californian flower-power silliness of hippie myth."[5] Patti Smith, in contrast, suggests in the documentary 25 Years of Punk that the hippies and the punk rockers were linked by a common anti-establishment mentality. In any event, some of punk rock's leading figures made a show of rejecting not only mainstream rock and the broader culture it was associated with, but their own most celebrated predecessors: "No Elvis, Beatles or Rolling Stones in 1977", declared The Clash.[6] That year, when punk rock broke nationwide in Great Britain, was to be both a musical and a cultural "Year Zero".[7] Even as nostalgia was discarded, many in the scene adopted a nihilistic attitude summed up by the Sex Pistols slogan "No Future".[8] Punk rock bands often emulate the bare musical structures and arrangements of 1960s garage rock.[9] This emphasis on accessibility exemplifies punk rock's DIY aesthetic and contrasts with what those in the scene regarded as the ostentatious musical effects and technological demands of many mainstream rock bands of the early and mid-1970s.[10] A 1976 issue of the English punk fanzine Sideburns featured an illustration of three chords, captioned "This is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band."[11] Typical punk rock instrumentation includes one or two electric guitars, an electric bass, and a drum kit, along with vocals. In the early days of punk rock, musical virtuosity was often looked on with suspicion. According to John Holmstrom, punk rock was "rock and roll by people who didn't have very much skills as musicians but still felt the need to express themselves through music".[12] Punk rock songs tend to be shorter than those of other popular genres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members willsellout Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 They (the members of both bands) were both part of the punk scene long before punk was cool or hip so yes they are punk and the fact that they are still making music with integrity makes them even more so. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 They (the members of both bands) were both part of the punk scene long before punk was cool or hip so yes they are punk and the fact that they are still making music with integrity makes them even more so.Dan I'm with you on this one. I don't need to read some long diatribe from Wikipedia to convince me that Tim Armstrong or Mike Ness are not, or were not, ever "punk." Punk is a lot more than tempo speeds and noisey under-produced albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members willsellout Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 I'm with you on this one. I don't need to read some long diatribe from Wikipedia to convince me that Tim Armstrong or Mike Ness are not, or were not, ever "punk."Punk is a lot more than tempo speeds and noisey under-produced albums. EXACTLY!If you need to go to wikipedia and read about punk to explain it then you have no business touting off at the mouth about it. Just my opinion but punk is not music, it's not fashion, and it is definitely not something you can put into a tidy little musical package. Punk spans decades and crosses musical boundries, and makes love to your underage daughter. Don't try to quantify it, just enjoy and don't be a judgemental little trendster. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 They (the members of both bands) were both part of the punk scene long before punk was cool or hip so yes they are punk and the fact that they are still making music with integrity makes them even more so.Dan There earlier stuff was very much punk no doubt about it, but they are now is less so imho. I also don't really agree, because the likes of the sex pistols had already peaked by the time Social Distortion came about.# The more I listen to SD stuff the more I like them... but i'm listening to their sub 90's stuff atm. Prison Bound Mommy's Little Monster I don't really like the self titled, I just brought today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members willsellout Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 There earlier stuff was very much punk no doubt about it, but they are now is less so imho.I also don't really agree, because the likes of the sex pistols had already peaked by the time Social Distortion came about.#The more I listen to SD stuff the more I like them... but i'm listening to their sub 90's stuff atm.Prison Bound Mommy's Little MonsterI don't really like the self titled, I just brought today... You don't have to like it..what your saying goes against the idea of being punk. You are saying that because musically it isn't as violent or thrashing as The Teen Idols or Bad Brains that it isn't punk. That's just wrong on every level IMO. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 EXACTLY! If you need to go to wikipedia and read about punk to explain it then you have no business touting off at the mouth about it. Just my opinion but punk is not music, it's not fashion, and it is definitely not something you can put into a tidy little musical package. Punk spans decades and crosses musical boundries, and makes love to your underage daughter. Don't try to quantify it, just enjoy and don't be a judgemental little trendster. Dan That is what I was trying to say, but I guess i'm just touting my mouth off again I love the way you don't speak/present an arguement to me and refer in the 3rd person, thought you were better than bitchyness like that willsellout. Obviously not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members willsellout Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 That is what I was trying to say, but I guess i'm just touting my mouth off again I love the way you don't speak/present an arguement to me and refer in the 3rd person, thought you were better than bitchyness like that willsellout. Obviously not. Your post makes no sense. And I wasn't targeting you but rather a whole generation of people who think like you..it just so happens you think like you. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Your post makes no sense. And I wasn't targeting you but rather a whole generation of people who think like you..it just so happens you think like you.Dan Interesting, so what defines my generation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 Punk is much more than music, it's an idealogy, a mindset, a way of life. The line is obviously blurred, especially when having a discussion about music, so I think some leniency needs to be given on both sides of the argument. Personally, I try to differentiate them a bit by making reference to punk music, punk rock or whatever, and plain and simple punk. Social D has not ever really been true punk rock, but Mike Ness is a punk, make no doubt about it. Nobody I have ever known has accused me of not being punk. I am, I live it every day of my life. Do I still live on the streets like I did when I was 15? No. Do I still have a shaved head, long braided goatee, multiple piercings and wear DM's 365 a year? Well, I still wear DM's, but no on the other accounts. My life may have changed as I aged, but one thing has not and will not ever die inside me, and that is that fire, that punk spirit. It has and always will burn inside me. And if anyone ever tried to call me a sell out for working in an office or having a normal hair cut or dared to accuse me of not being punk for whatever reason, I'd be telling them to get in the ring with me and my size 13 8 holes but quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 So I haven't just been trying to say that then Renfield? I'm confused because that is what i've been saying all along, except the section where you mention that Mike is a punk and lives by it. I've been trying to say that SD isn't really punk rock, that's it, I haven't been trying to say it's not punk because it's not violent. Can anyone tell me how they have interpreted my posts, since I am very tired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Undead Sycip Posted January 4, 2008 Members Share Posted January 4, 2008 To me, part of the punk package is the nihilistic {censored} this {censored} that attitude so I guess to me Social D and a bunch of other punk image bands, aren't punk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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