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I'm going to hell for my new Avatar.

der oxenrig

By der oxenrig
in Bass Guitar

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Goofball Jones Newbie

Goofball Jones

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There is no "Church" just the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Christianity, there was one church called the Catholic Church, until the split between east (Greek Orthodox) and west (Roman Catholic) in AD 1054, over political and theological differences. The next split came in 1517 with Martin Luther and the 95 Theses. There was corruption and some abuses in the Catholic Church, add to that Luther's dark view of humanity, his struggle with being scrupulous, and we get the Protestant Reformation, based on the principles of SOLA FIDE (faith alone) and SOLA SCRIPTURA (scripture only), neither of which are anywhere to be found in the Bible. BTW, the Bible is a Roman Catholic book, approved as Canon by the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church in the 3rd century AD.


The Bible was not written by Jesus Christ, nor by Martin Luther or King James, nor did it drop from heaven onto Luther's lap. It is a "library" or "collection of books" hence the word Bible from a Greek term meaning just that: library.


The worst abuses of misineterpreting the Bible started with Martin Luther, who established the idea of individual interpretation without a teaching church to guide believers. First he's nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the church at Wittenberg, next thing you know people are misinterpreting the Bible and handling poison snakes!!!


Hey, but to each his own. The Catholic Church traces back to St. Peter, and therefore Jesus Christ, as does the Greek Orthodox Church. The Lutherans and all those churches that come out of Lutheranism trace back to Martin Luther, that's it. The Anglicans, Episcopaleans and all those from that branch, back to Henry VIII who just wanted a church that would let him marry and divorce seven times. That's it.

 

 

I smell Kashue about to erupt upon all of this....

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frunobulax Newbie

frunobulax

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Gee, a debate about FAITH vs REASON?????


How ORIGINAL!!!!


Evolution vs creation????



Oooooooohhh!!! What ORIGINAL thinkers you are!!!


Keep going, and MAYBE you'll all reach 5th grade level history in this thread!!!
:thu:



oh it makes me sooo hot when you get all superior.

do it some more, do it some more.

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Craig Vecchione Newbie

Craig Vecchione

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Gee, a debate about FAITH vs REASON?????


How ORIGINAL!!!!


Evolution vs creation????



Oooooooohhh!!! What ORIGINAL thinkers you are!!!


Keep going, and MAYBE you'll all reach 5th grade level history in this thread!!!
:thu:

 

I see you're back to your old form.

 

A reminder from the forum rules:

4. Unwarranted harassment, flaming

 

This is covered in the user's agreement. We do try to be fairly liberal about people's rights to argue about issues, but when these arguments degenerate into flame wars, they will be removed or edited.

We understand that this rule is a bit subjective but it's supposed to preserve a well-minded spirit on the forum.

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dravenzouk Newbie

dravenzouk

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There is no "Church" just the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Christianity, there was one church called the Catholic Church, until the split between east (Greek Orthodox) and west (Roman Catholic) in AD 1054, over political and theological differences. The next split came in 1517 with Martin Luther and the 95 Theses. There was corruption and some abuses in the Catholic Church, add to that Luther's dark view of humanity, his struggle with being scrupulous, and we get the Protestant Reformation, based on the principles of SOLA FIDE (faith alone) and SOLA SCRIPTURA (scripture only), neither of which are anywhere to be found in the Bible. BTW, the Bible is a Roman Catholic book, approved as Canon by the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church in the 3rd century AD.


The Bible was not written by Jesus Christ, nor by Martin Luther or King James, nor did it drop from heaven onto Luther's lap. It is a "library" or "collection of books" hence the word Bible from a Greek term meaning just that: library.


The worst abuses of misineterpreting the Bible started with Martin Luther, who established the idea of individual interpretation without a teaching church to guide believers. First he's nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the church at Wittenberg, next thing you know people are misinterpreting the Bible and handling poison snakes!!!


Hey, but to each his own. The Catholic Church traces back to St. Peter, and therefore Jesus Christ, as does the Greek Orthodox Church. The Lutherans and all those churches that come out of Lutheranism trace back to Martin Luther, that's it. The Anglicans, Episcopaleans and all those from that branch, back to Henry VIII who just wanted a church that would let him marry and divorce seven times. That's it.

 

 

Rob, you are sticking your neck out pretty far here (which I give you credit for on bravery), but I'm sorry I gotta take a couple of whacks at it.

 

First you claim the bible as essentially property of the Roman Catholic Church. If you follow that line of thinking, than the next place you get to is that really only the Roman Catholics posess the "word of God" (and this is because some humans, the Pope and bishops said so). Better be a bit more careful and specific, and at least talk only of the new testament. The Jews, among others, might have a bit of a problem otherwise.

 

I like the buried little gem "there was some corruption and abuses in the Catholic Church" Some? Just a little, maybe worth mentioning in passing but certainly nothing to get worked up about? You didn't think anyone was going to just let that little snippet just past by did you? Methinks it was a fair bit more than "some".

 

Then you accuse Martin Luther of starting all the worst abuses of misinterpreting the bible. As if there weren't any murders, wars, mass killings, and such all in the name of Christ before he came along. You lay blame for misinterpreting the bible on him, which is a pretty serious charge. You claim his central "sin" was allowing for individual interpretations without guidance - but then you cheerfully quip, "hey, but to each his own". Huh?

 

Your last paragraph is the scary one. Now I know you didn't make any direct accusations, but your statements are the exact same as all those who basically say their church is the one TRUE church, and then justify ungodly (and I do mean to use that word specifically) amounts torture/abuse/murder because "God is on our side". In your case it's the Roman Catholics. You completely dismiss the other christian faiths, saying they have nothing to do with Christ, but rather trace back the core of their religions to essentially madmen and opportunists. Once again, it's not too many steps from there to all out war and killing of anyone who isn't part of your church (I think we've seen more than a few examples of this scattered throughout history).

 

The bible (new testament) is actually a pretty simple little guidebook/lessonbook/rulebook really; no need for all these conflicting interpretations. It pretty much says, "don't be an asshole, treat people nice, help others out, give as much or more than you take, and stop killing everyone". Pretty good words to live by, and it's a shame so many (most?) christians don't seem to get it or to take any of it truly to heart. And I myself could agree to go along with it, except that "God" adds one more little bit to "his" rule book which is, "Oh, and also, you better worship me and go through these specific little rituals of obeisance, or I will f*cking pwn you for eternity". To which I pretty much answer, "screw that".

 

But hey, to each his own, right?

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ThudMaker Newbie

ThudMaker

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There is no "Church" just the Church. For the first 1,000 years of Christianity, there was one church called the Catholic Church, until the split between east (Greek Orthodox) and west (Roman Catholic) in AD 1054, over political and theological differences. The next split came in 1517 with Martin Luther and the 95 Theses. There was corruption and some abuses in the Catholic Church, add to that Luther's dark view of humanity, his struggle with being scrupulous, and we get the Protestant Reformation, based on the principles of SOLA FIDE (faith alone) and SOLA SCRIPTURA (scripture only), neither of which are anywhere to be found in the Bible. BTW, the Bible is a Roman Catholic book, approved as Canon by the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church in the 3rd century AD.


The Bible was not written by Jesus Christ, nor by Martin Luther or King James, nor did it drop from heaven onto Luther's lap. It is a "library" or "collection of books" hence the word Bible from a Greek term meaning just that: library.


The worst abuses of misineterpreting the Bible started with Martin Luther, who established the idea of individual interpretation without a teaching church to guide believers. First he's nailing his 95 Theses to the door of the church at Wittenberg, next thing you know people are misinterpreting the Bible and handling poison snakes!!!


Hey, but to each his own. The Catholic Church traces back to St. Peter, and therefore Jesus Christ, as does the Greek Orthodox Church. The Lutherans and all those churches that come out of Lutheranism trace back to Martin Luther, that's it. The Anglicans, Episcopaleans and all those from that branch, back to Henry VIII who just wanted a church that would let him marry and divorce seven times. That's it.

The Churches of Corinth, Ephesus, etc. were all Christian churches that Paul wrote letters to. Look them up in the Bible. This was long before any "Catholic Church" existed and these were early Christians. Why don't you look up St. Augustine and his belief/interpretation of the Genesis account. In 1616 the Catholic Church (in your words, the "Roman Catholic Church) condemned heliocentrism as contrary to scripture. Eventually, Galileo was forced to recant and was placed under house arrest. Further in discussing Galileo Galilei the Catholic Church placed him under house arrest, forced him to recant and The geocentric view had been dominant since the time of Aristotle, and the controversy engendered by Galileo's opposition to this view resulted in the condemnation of heliocentrism in 1616 by the Catholic Church as contrary to Scripture. Galileo was placed on trial for suspiscion of heresy in 1633 for his views on heliocentrism. Based upon the sentence handed down at that time, he was forced to recant his views on heliocentrism, placed under house arrest and his book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems was banned. Not only was the publication of his works banned, but also any future writings he may have.Galileo died in 1642, but reburied properly in 1737. Pope Benedict XIV authorized publication of his complete works in 1741 and in 1758 the Catholic Church lifted the prohibition on heliocentrism. It wasn't until 1992 that Pope John Paul II expressed regret over how the Galileo affair was handled.

 

As I mentioned previously Protestant leaders were also against the teaching of heliocentrism. These folks included Luther, John Calvin and more.

Thus, the "Church" was guilty of pushing religion over qualified scientific evidence. I'm not quite sure what you think your post addressed regarding science vs religion, but I stand by my post, that this is just one of many instances that caused a big schism between science and religion that continues to this day when there should be none. As for your interpretation of the scriptures, well, that would be your opinion.

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ThudMaker Newbie

ThudMaker

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The bible (new testament) is actually a pretty simple little guidebook/lessonbook/rulebook really; no need for all these conflicting interpretations. It pretty much says, "don't be an asshole, treat people nice, help others out, give as much or more than you take, and stop killing everyone". Pretty good words to live by, and it's a shame so many (most?) christians don't seem to get it or to take any of it truly to heart. And I myself could agree to go along with it, except that "God" adds one more little bit to "his" rule book which is, "Oh, and also, you better worship me and go through these specific little rituals of obeisance, or I will f*cking pwn you for eternity". To which I pretty much answer, "screw that".


But hey, to each his own, right?

Mild little bone to pick here, but the Bible would never be just the "New Testament."

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dravenzouk Newbie

dravenzouk

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Mild little bone to pick here, but the Bible would never be just the "New Testament."

 

Yes, we agree here. My point to Rob was that he was claiming "the Bible" as a Roman Catholic Book somewhat erroneously. I was pointing out that "the Bible" includes a fair amount of material (in addition to the new testament) that was claimed by at least one religion prior to the Roman Catholics. I gave for example the Jews.

 

The part of my post that you quoted should have been worded slightly different. Perhaps "The bible (at least the new testament portion) is actually......". Consider your mildly picked bone fixed.

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