Members chris-dax Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Just found this in today's WSJ - my emphasis added... Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri planned the October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole. Abu Zubaydah was the mastermind of the foiled millennium terrorist attacks, which had Los Angeles airport as one of its targets. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed directed the September 11 attacks, and has claimed to have personally beheaded Wall Street Journal reporter Danny Pearl. All three men were captured by the CIA in 2002 and waterboarded in the course of their interrogations. They are also the only U.S. detainees to have been waterboarded. That fact, publicly confirmed yesterday by CIA Director Michael Hayden, shreds whatever is left to the so-called torture narrative, according to which the Bush Administration has engaged in widespread, needless and systematic torture of detainees. Instead, we have sworn public testimony that the waterboarding was conducted against the three individuals best positioned to know about impending terrorist atrocities. The interrogations took place when a second major terrorist attack was widely seen as inevitable. And we know that the waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah helped lead to the capture of KSM, and to the foiling of an active terrorist plot against the United States. The waterboarding was conducted by intelligence professionals who understood they were operating not only with the approval of the Justice Department but also the informed consent of key Congressional leaders, including Democrat Jay Rockefeller, then the ranking minority Member on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and then-House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. In his own testimony yesterday, Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell refused to rule out the use of waterboarding in the future, though he said it would have to be approved by the President and Attorney General. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Now that IS interesting... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kakona Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 They were also operating with the approval, though not the informed consent, of Kakona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Les_Izzmor Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 1. Any nation that tortures people, for whatever reasons, has a hard time maintaining the high ground in any discussions regarding human rights. 2. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't have done it. But. If we tortured people then we're a nation that isn't above torturing people. 3. When do you draw the line as to when torture is accpetable and unacceptable once you've decided it as a possible course of action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Psilocybin Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 And how long will it be before we use this on our own? Cops start waterboarding people who plead the 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dravenzouk Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 [YOUTUBE]gO3xKGT4ucE[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Waterboarding is so 5 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members catphish Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Waterboarding is so 5 years ago. This year they're using Lug MP3s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 This year they're using Lug MP3s There is some agrument whether waterboarding is considered actual torture. There is no doubt with the brutal use of the Lug MP3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kakona Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is some agrument whether waterboarding is considered actual torture. There is no doubt with the brutal use of the Lug MP3. That's a good point. Les_Izzmor's post assumes waterboarding is torture. I am in agreement with the WSJ and, apparently, Nancy Pelosi, in believing that it is not. I have no experience with Lug MP3's - what does the Geneva Convention say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 I have no experience with Lug MP3's - what does the Geneva Convention say? run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassman1956 Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 .......I have no experience with Lug MP3's - what does the Geneva Convention say? Well, they used it at Waco, and you saw what happened there...made our own guys go nutz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Picker Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Psilocybin Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is some agrument whether waterboarding is considered actual torture. There is no doubt with the brutal use of the Lug MP3. It worked for us in Panama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bluescout Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Personally, I acnowledge and accept that a country such as ours has to do certain things that I don't want to know about to keep us safe, secure and at the top of the pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Optimus Prime Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Personally, I acnowledge and accept that a country such as ours has to do certain things that I don't want to know about to keep us safe, secure and at the top of the pile. I agree, {censored}ing up a few people to save millions seems kinda worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T. Alan Smith Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Personally, I acnowledge and accept that a country such as ours has to do certain things that I don't want to know about to keep us safe, secure and at the top of the pile. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kakona Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ That was an interesting article, thanks for providing it. I was less aware of the facts of the matter than I should have been and also found Senator McCain's statements on the matter persuasive (I do not support him for President, but I accept his credentials as an expert on torture). Though it embarrasses me to do it and flies in the face of internet forum protocol, which requires that I simply restate my original opinion along with overt or implied personal insults directed towards those who disagree, I hereby retract my approval of the water boarding described above. Mea culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm pretty much a right-wing conservative, and I think this is horrific. Necessary, maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible thing to do. This is a gray area at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bassin' 'Round Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 1. Any nation that tortures people, for whatever reasons, has a hard time maintaining the high ground in any discussions regarding human rights.2. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't have done it. But. If we tortured people then we're a nation that isn't above torturing people. 3. When do you draw the line as to when torture is accpetable and unacceptable once you've decided it as a possible course of action? ...when it comes to getting info from terrorists that could prevent an attack & save American lives, absolutely any method needed is acceptable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris-dax Posted February 6, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ Interesting piece...and very informative. I found 2 statements that I took particular objection to... 1- We live at a time where Americans...are actually cheering and encouraging such torture as justifiable revenge for the September 11 attacks. I've never heard anyone support waterboarding for the purpose of getting revenge. In the contemporary American context, it is a method of extracting information. There are arguments as to how effective it is at getting info, granted...but I've never heard anyone suggest it as a tool for revenge. 2- Waterboarding will be one our future enemy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Psilocybin Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/ Thats a very good read. Thank you for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members citizenralph Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 Interesting piece...and very informative. I found 2 statements that I took particular objection to... 1- We live at a time where Americans...are actually cheering and encouraging such torture as justifiable revenge for the September 11 attacks. I've never heard anyone support waterboarding for the purpose of getting revenge. In the contemporary American context, it is a method of extracting information. There are arguments as to how effective it is at getting info, granted...but I've never heard anyone suggest it as a tool for revenge. 2- Waterboarding will be one our future enemy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Psilocybin Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 In any case, if America says its ok to use torture, how long until we start using it on our own? Perhaps one day we can all have a good reason to be afraid of our government. Johnny says, "I don't like the president".Cop says, "To the waterboard with this unpatriotic scum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted February 6, 2008 Members Share Posted February 6, 2008 In any case, if America says its ok to use torture, how long until we start using it on our own? Perhaps one day we can all have a good reason to be afraid of our government.Johnny says, "I don't like the president".Cop says, "To the waterboard with this unpatriotic scum." Nice red herring... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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