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Theological debate: please join me inside.


mrcrow

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There is a lot of worth in the alleged words of the man Jesus. But let's not pretend he was divine.


Nobody knows whether or not god(s) exist, but if they do, I have a hard time believing literally in the existence of the personal god Yahweh of the Bible--he was merely a god who became the patron god of some sects of ancient Hebrews. He's a fictional character with roots in earlier, different cultures.


Just as the Bible is mythology, based on earlier, other mythologies (primarily Mesopotamian, Sumerian, babylonian, Greek and Egyptian.)


The fact that the Bible is mythological does not mean that it is
lies
.


The Bible contains a good deal of wisdom, philosophical "truth", majesty and mystery. But let's not pretend it's literally true.


(Incidentally, the concept of the Trinity isn't even biblical.)


Moreover, the story of a demi-god, born of a god or a virgin but taking human form, being martyred and then resurrected was old and common enough during the time Jesus is said to have lived to be considered an archetypical symbol. Dionysis, Osiris, Mithras and Romulus/Remus are only some of the earlier literary/mythological figures to whom many of these supernatural, divine aspects were attributed.


To look at this literally is nonsense. It's indefensible and groundless. As a
myth
(a different, perhaps even higher
form
of "truth") it speaks to us all.


The Bible does contain some history. So does the work of Homer. But it is far more of a mythical/allegorical/symbolic collection of writings largely culled from the beliefs of earlier cultures.




You are more intelligent than God!?:eek:
If you can understand everything about God, then he really isn't all that impressive, is he?

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." - Jesus Christ

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Define church.
:idea:

Man, I gotta say that's a pretty petty jab at a very informative post from Rob Martinez.


What was your intent in doing that?



If you have been privy to the discussions KK and Rob have gotten into, you wouldn't have to ask that question. Since you haven't, I'll wait for KK to explain.



Dan

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Bow down to your one true original god. The one that took us out of the caves, straightened our backs and put tools in out hands to carve out the tributes to them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ebe1_alien.jpg

 

*flees forum giggling madly to Himself*

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You are more intelligent than God!?

 

 

Where on earth do you get the impression I am saying that? I don't know if there's a god at all or a whole population of gods, or none. Neither do you. It's more than we know. I don't happen to believe in invisible magical beings that control our destinies, but I can certainly understand why a person might.

 

 

 

If you can understand everything about God, then he really isn't all that impressive, is he?

 

 

On the contrary--it's people who adhere to a man-made religion who feel they can "understand god." They'll hold up their Bible and proclaim "It's all right here!"

 

But that's, of course, nonsense. The Bible is a collection of myths, as I explained, largely borrowed from the earlier myths of other cultures and embellished and altered.

 

There may indeed be a god or gods. Again, nobody knows. But if you think you can find any kind of factual knowledge about these alleged beings in any scriptures writ by humans (and that includes all of them) then you are deluded.

 

Yahweh was just one god out of many who came to be seen as the patron deity of certain sects of ancient Israelites; simply that and nothing more. Yahweh's literary and cultural evolution to the Christian god of today is a very interesting ride through history.

 

 

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." - Jesus Christ

 

 

You are making the mistake that this is actual history. It's not; it's plainly myth. It's still vitally important to us, and it does contain truth of a sort.

 

As for the alleged sayings of Jesus, he very often seems a terribly wise and compassionate man. A man whose words more people would do well to follow, though it should be pointed out that not all the quotes attributed to him are original to either Judaism or Christianity.

 

I can relate to the man Jesus. As the human being that is written of. A man who felt love, lust, confusion, doubt, joy, sorrow, etc.

 

As an omniscient "god on earth" it comes to mean little to me. Not to mention the fact that the supernatural qualities superimposed onto his "biography"--the virgin birth, the miracles, the martyrdom and the resurrection--were, as stated, all old hat and common coin in his time. Different people and legendary figures had been said to share some or all of these attributes for millenia preceding the time of Jesus.

 

Coincidence? Personally I doubt it.

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If you have been privy to the discussions KK and Rob have gotten into, you wouldn't have to ask that question. Since you haven't, I'll wait for KK to explain.


Dan

 

 

Heh...

 

Wade, my intent was to say that it wasn't actually that informative a post. Even in that short post, there are several major errors.

 

The two big ones:

 

1. He's not correctly describing either the Arian Heresy's theological content or the resolution of the controversy it caused.

 

2. The official determination of Christ being 100% God and 100% man was not determined at Nicaea (which is the Council where Arianism was denounced) but at Chalcedon, 120 years later...

 

 

The reason I didn't specifically respond to Rob is because we've already gone around about Church history. It was established that he's not even clear on the basics (like where the word "bible" comes from), and he certainly isn't sound on the more complex issues (like having read the Church acts themselves)...I've no need to spend time re-demonstrating that.

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You are making the mistake that this is actual history. It's not; it's plainly myth. It's still vitally important to us, and it does contain truth of a sort.

 

 

Just as a note, precisely what about the texts that make up the New Testament make them "plainly myth"...

 

Accounts written by multiple authors about events they either witnessed first hand or based on interviews with people who witnessed the events first hand. Multiple accounts, almost entirely in agreement and rendered in significant detail.

 

What is it that makes it so "plainly" myth?

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Regarding the divinity, mortality, or even existence of any Jesus person. I can't really say. I've personal issue with belief without proof.

 

It was 2000 years ago, and there is no proof in either direction aside from the writings in a book written generations after the fact, and mistranslated too many times to count.

 

If he existed, I'd say he was a charismatic guy who told people the right thing at the right time. If not, most popular spokesman ever.

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The church is religion.God did not invent religion,man did.Man has spent his entire existance killing each other in the name of religion.Each denomination points it's finger at the other,but there is only one God.Have we advanced as beings,NO! We just have cooler ways to kill more enemies at a time than the clubs,and spears we started with. Jesus existed.Of that there is no doubt.The rest is entirely up to you.Believe or don't.Have faith,or don't.There must have been something special about him,or this post would have been about Gingus Kahn.What more proof of eternal "life" do you need?

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100% man, 100% god. The Trinity is not a math problem, nor is it a riddle. It is a mystery, meaning something we can always learn more about, but not know everything about.

 

It's pretty much how every single church that I've been to describes it -- there's the 100% man, 100% God idea with a bit of Tozer thrown in to make it sound cool. I also think that asking the question about whether Jesus was God, man or man and God is the wrong question since it leads to an absolute answer, that's just me though. I think that most people don't have a problem with Jesus, but many do have a problem with absolute thinking. Jesus never lead with the whole "I am God" thing, how much less should we?

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It's pretty much how every single church that I've been to describes it

 

 

The first line of his post, yes, everything else, not so much...

 

 

And the only reason why every single church you've been to has described it that way is because you've only been to Western churches.

 

The Coptic Church, the Church of the East, the Armenian Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox church, the Indian Orthodox church, and several others reject Chalcedon and have for 1550 years...

 

Go to one of those churches and you'll get a very different answer to the question...

 

 

 

Edit: Wrote "Eastern Orthodox" instead of "Church of the East/Syrian Orthodox"...

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What were the Nazis?

Pursuit of the master race. Hitler was a Catholic growing up, not sure how much of a case could be made for him but I've heard arguments about Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. Read a bit about how many have died under their leadership. Again, I'm not saying that I buy or believe that they did this in the name of Atheism, I've never looked into it. But, I do know of people who claim the connection. You can't really argue against the pursuit to rid certain parts of the world of religion by means of imprisonment and violence.

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Heh...


Wade, my intent was to say that it
wasn't
actually that informative a post. Even in that short post, there are several major errors.


The two big ones:


1. He's not correctly describing either the Arian Heresy's theological content or the resolution of the controversy it caused.


2. The official determination of Christ being 100% God and 100% man was not determined at Nicaea (which is the Council where Arianism was denounced) but at Chalcedon, 120 years later...



The reason I didn't specifically respond to Rob is because we've already
. It was established that he's not even clear on the basics (like where the word "bible" comes from), and he certainly isn't sound on the more complex issues (like having read the Church acts themselves)...I've no need to spend time re-demonstrating that.

 

 

The only clear fact here is that you are a very lame Church historian.

 

What is also clear is you are a arrogant enough person to not be able to handle being corrected. Grow up, Rob. You ahve a lot ot learn about a LOT of things. Have you had a beer yet?

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The first line of his post, yes, everything else, not so much...



And the only reason why every single church you've been to has described it that way is because you've only been to Western churches.


The Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Armenian Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox church, the Indian Orthodox church, and several others reject Chalcedon and have for 1550 years...


Go to one of those churches and you'll get a very different answer to the question...

 

 

Are you saying those churches are Arian? If so, you are dead wrong and very ignorant about the Eastern rite churches.

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