BI-AMPING

[rpsands]

Not in practice. Maybe on paper.

 

Both in paper and in practice. See Kindness' rig for details. Or greenboy, or like 50 other dudes.

 

Hell, greenboy is even a crossover guy, but he crosses his 3015LF over at 800hz, to a 6.5" mid. if a 3015Lf can handle 800hz I am pretty sure your aluminum coned monster can do so as well

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I my experience crossing at 100hz does almost nothing even with a subwoofer. A becuase it requires massive power to achieve a real output. B becuase it is below the range of sensistive human hearing.

 

 

 

 

A. You need massive power at sub-bass frequencies regardless of where you cross. For every octave lower, ~4x the power is required to achieve equivalent sound levels.

 

B. Since when is below 100Hz below the range of "sensitive human hearing?" Normal hearing extends to 20Hz. An "E" on a bass guitar is about 41.2Hz. A low-B is around 30.8Hz. An open G on the G string is 98Hz. Are you unable to hear anything below the G string on a 4-string bass?

[AluminumNeck]

there are variances in the hearing response curve. It takes more DB to percieve 20hz then 200hz.

 

Your dead on about power requirements.

 

 

A. You need massive power at sub-bass frequencies regardless of where you cross. For every octave lower, ~4x the power is required to achieve equivalent sound levels. B. Since when is below 100Hz below the range of "sensitive human hearing?" Normal hearing extends to 20Hz. An "E" on a bass guitar is about 41.2Hz. A low-B is around 30.8Hz. An open G on the G string is 98Hz. Are you unable to hear anything below the G string on a 4-string bass ?

 

[Craig Vecchione]

 

there are variances in the hearing response curve. It takes more DB to percieve 20hz then 200hz. Your dead on about power requirements.

 

 

But you're presenting this as if there's no point in having subs. There'd be no point in having bass guitar if it was somehow difficult to hear. Part of the need for more power to produce perceived equivalent sound levels is the human hearing response curve. But none of this makes a case for not using a subwoofer, and for crossing a subwoofer well above its useful response band. The entire point of dividing the signal is to use speakers optimized to a freq. band.

[AluminumNeck]

 

 

there is a difference between a cross over dividng/attenuating an already amplified signal and splitting the signal post EQ and then amplifying it. Cross overs post amplification disapates power. Load of power. They actually consume tons of power.

 

are you running a Bi amp rig or have you ever run a biamp rig ? The DB seperation is much better if you split your audio signal prior to amplifcation.You also get a nice increase in sensitivty becuase you are no longer attenuating FQ bands out of the amplified signal.

 

The cross over will in a way become a power soak.

 

Both in paper and in practice. See Kindness' rig for details. Or greenboy, or like 50 other dudes. Hell, greenboy is even a crossover guy, but he crosses his 3015LF over at 800hz, to a 6.5" mid. if a 3015Lf can handle 800hz I am pretty sure your aluminum coned monster can do so as well

[rpsands]

Bottom line, you could replace your 4x10 with a 1x8 dedicated midrange, raise your crossover to 800hz, and probably not be able to tell the difference.

 

 

SO MUCH bass guitar tone is from 0-300hz (almost every fairly energetic harmonic from frets 1-10 on the E and A string) that you're running barely any sound through the 4x10 until you get into upper registers of the bass (the treble strings, past the 5th fret).

 

I think what you're probably hearing is that you like the 1x15 and don't like the 4x10 the more I think about this. Since you're stripping so much of the important frequency range away from it.

[AluminumNeck]

Well there is a point in not using a "True Sub" vs using a LF woofer. a Low FQ woofer will get you a much greater response is more sensitive and is generally loader then a sub.

 

The reason we need so much more power then guitarists is becuase we play in the range of hearing where humans have less sensitive reception so to speak. Also it take more power to produce 1db of 20hz vs 1000hz.

 

All the biamp argument is really about it clarity. Thats all you gain. You gain clarity in the sound.

 

 

But you're presenting this as if there's no point in having subs. There'd be no point in having bass guitar if it was somehow difficult to hear. Part of the need for more power to produce perceived equivalent sound levels is the human hearing response curve. But none of this makes a case for not using a subwoofer, and for crossing a subwoofer well above its useful response band. The entire point of dividing the signal is to use speakers optimized to a freq. band.

 

[rpsands]

there is a difference between a cross over dividng/attenuating an already amplified signal and splitting the signal post EQ and then amplifying it. Cross overs post amplification disapates power. Load of power. They actually consume tons of power. are you running a Bi amp rig or have you ever run a biamp rig ? The DB seperation is much better if you split your audio signal prior to amplifcation.You also get a nice increase in sensitivty becuase you are no longer attenuating FQ bands out of the amplified signal. The cross over will in a way become a power soak.

 

I doubt there is that much power lost at all in the passive crossovers - I can't speak with any authority to that.

 

What I can speak to is that for claiming to know so much about biamping, you're using speakers that are eminently unsuited to it. You're cramming 4x10 speakers to do the work that 2x10s would do, and you're underusing your 1x15.

 

The cardinal rule of biamplification is: Thou shalt used specialized speakers.

[AluminumNeck]

:facepalm:

 

I like the sound of both. For alot of what I play i get a nice round full sound with loads of clarity. Also the cross over does not totally Kill everything below 300hz. It simply applys a 20db roll off. There are lots of wonderful sounds above the fundemental fq that you hear and thats what alot of the perception of the Cut in the mix is. There are lots of notes above the fundemental tunnings I play that sound better where it is. I let the speaker that are best suited to each band do the job they are best suited for.

 

I also play alot of slap and pop where those 10's really sparkle.

 

I am done debating this today. Build you own rig,copy mine if you like. Turn off the PC and try some of the things I am talking about instead of listening to the yaking of the E-Experts.

 

 

 

Bottom line, you could replace your 4x10 with a 1x8 dedicated midrange, raise your crossover to 800hz, and probably not be able to tell the difference. SO MUCH bass guitar tone is from 0-300hz (almost every fairly energetic harmonic from frets 1-10 on the E and A string) that you're running barely any sound through the 4x10 until you get into upper registers of the bass (the treble strings, past the 5th fret). I think what you're probably hearing is that you like the 1x15 and don't like the 4x10 the more I think about this. Since you're stripping so much of the important frequency range away from it.

[AluminumNeck]

You have a wealth of experience ? I have been doing it for 15+ years. I have played most every type of cabinet configuration there is. My current setup is what I have found to be the best for my tastes.

 

Trust me none of the speaker in my rig are sitting idle.

 

as to cross overs. They could easily knock 3-8 db of response right out of a speaker. easily. thats alot of power.

 

Even if I used "speacialized Speaker" and I have in the past. This cabinet arrangment is the best I have used to date. Even if it wasn't designed to be used the way I am using it. It sounds great the way it is being used. Regardless of whatever regurgitated thoeretical crap people can drag up in this thread it sounds stellar.

 

 

 

 

I doubt there is that much power lost at all in the passive crossovers - I can't speak with any authority to that. What I can speak to is that for claiming to know so much about biamping, you're using speakers that are eminently unsuited to it. You're cramming 4x10 speakers to do the work that 2x10s would do, and you're underusing your 1x15. The cardinal rule of biamplification is: Thou shalt used specialized speakers.

 

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I am done debating this today. Build you own rig,copy mine if you like. Turn off the PC and try some of the things I am talking about instead of listening to the yaking of the E-Experts.

 

 

You're making comments about people without having a clue what their experience might be. And apparently fail to see the irony of your statement.

[rpsands]

Again, I don't think you gain all that much clarity over a passive crossover. Probably not noticeable at all to most folk. If you use the right speakers and a quality crossover network.

 

I'd love to see an A/B comparison between Kindness's 15/6 and your GLX stack, in a clarity test. I really would.

[rpsands]

I'm glad you like your rig: However, it's theoretically ridiculous, and recommending it like you're some kind of theory expert is equally so. You've got value statements and anecdotal evidence. I'm sure as hell not going to start recommending people to buy some bargain aluminum cone speakers and because some guy on a forum said it sounded cool.

 

Wait, and it sounds cool for slap and pop, which seeks drastically different tones from pretty much every other style.

[bnyswonger]

I've been playing through a two amp system for over 30 years, but obviously I don't have a clue as to what works...in a cockwaving match.

[rpsands]

I've been playing through a two amp system for over 30 years, but obviously I don't have a clue as to what works...in a cockwaving match.

 

Two amp and biamp are different things, :wave::wave:

[bnyswonger]

Two amp and biamp are different things, :wave: :wave:

 

Yeah, I surrendered to that realization over at TB a couple years ago.

 

I don't really yak about it too much. I just bring my {censored} in and play.

[Kindness]

I don't really yak about it too much. I just bring my {censored} in and play.

 

There are good lessons to be learned from this.

[AluminumNeck]

So even though you have absolutely no hands on experience with Biamping "its pretty obvious" and becuase you read it on the net or where ever makes it practically applicable.

 

If lots of other players didn't compliment my rig and my sound that would be one thing but other players and musicians often compliment my sound and tone and my playing. It projects,it rumbles it works regardless of the blather in this thread to the contrary. I can cut through any mix anywhere any time.

 

I can recomend anything I want.Your Results may vary.

 

As to the slap comment did you know alot of those same overtones and harmoincs are in pluck playing to, they are just much more accented in slap playing.

 

Oh now its come down to "bargian priced aluminum speaker" never mind the fact I could have purchased anything I wanted but I choose to buy these. I had the funds to purchase whatever I wanted.

 

The true Full Range gear snobbery comes eeeking out.

 

You have nothing to back your argument other then fundemental tones that are only Part of the sound of any given note on a stringed instrument. I bet you could turn down 40hz and still here E loud and clear.

 

I will continue to use my gear and play shows and have a great sounding reliable rig. Enjoy the snobbery. Your evidence is anecdotal. You obviously don't understand voicing and how to accomplish it. If you did we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

there a big distance between thoery and application.

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you like your rig: However, it's theoretically ridiculous, and recommending it like you're some kind of theory expert is equally so. You've got value statements and anecdotal evidence. I'm sure as hell not going to start recommending people to buy some bargain aluminum cone speakers and because some guy on a forum said it sounded cool. Wait, and it sounds cool for slap and pop, which seeks drastically different tones from pretty much every other style.

[AluminumNeck]

I don't care. The fact that someone is a engineer at GM for thirty years doesn't make them a good engineer and so far no one on this forum has any published paper on the subject manner being discussed.

 

 

You're making comments about people without having a clue what their experience might be. And apparently fail to see the irony of your statement.

 

[AluminumNeck]

Well if you don't know just say. I don't have any eperience with the subject.Having done Both I can tell you there is an audiable improvement in where the cross over is. Is you use a passive post amp crossover at high power levels you get signal crowding or fall out near the cross over point.

 

 

Again, I don't think you gain all that much clarity over a passive crossover. Probably not noticeable at all to most folk. If you use the right speakers and a quality crossover network. I'd love to see an A/B comparison between Kindness's 15/6 and your GLX stack, in a clarity test. I really would.

 

[wades_keys]

 

On the other hand, sometimes an intuitive type can simply make a leap, thinking-wise, without the time-consuming work that techies need to arrive at good, sound answers. If time pressure is on, sometimes it's the intuitive (not always) that makes the quick fix in the field.

 

Exactly.

 

Besides, this is music, not comp sci or law.

 

The only thing that matters is the subjective result - the sound and the player's happiness and sense of well-being with the rig.

 

If I had that rig I'd sure give it a try - why the hell not?

 

All this tech stuff is well and good but if it keeps you from trying something (within reason, that won't fry stuff), then that tech info is JIVE, pure and simple.

 

For example, you can say that a certain x-over point is not allowing this or that, or is poorly chosen based on some specs, or you can actually go into the situation knowing what type of tone you want and then turn the knobs till you get there.

 

The tech stuff is cool, but it shouldn't be seen as rigid LAW. (Thank god for that - do you think Vangelis did full spectrum analyses of his sounds? Did the trancers that abuse the TB-303 use the device the "proper" way, as intended? Did Chris Squire do the "right thing" playing his bass through guitar cabinets?)

 

It's a guide to keep you from blowing up {censored} - other than that - turn the damn knobs and stop when it sounds good.

 

I'm out.

[Kindness]

The captain reappears.

[wades_keys]

The captain reappears.

 

Obviously

[Spray Ndanus]

Bi amping makes sense if you want to tune the room and take loads off your amps and make your speakers work more efficiently.

 

I like the idea of running wet signal through the high frequency. And also messing with SS and tube combos

[isaac42]

Welcome to the board.