They say that...

[januaryscar]

Most bands break up when they are on the cusp of success.... thoughts?

[Tedster]

Hard to say, because they break up before they find real success.

 

I, for one, find it difficult to believe that ANY bands stay together long enough to make it.

[JBJ]

well things turned to {censored} for my band when we were makign some real headway and at least had a decent shot at "making it"

 

as cliched as it sounds, you really do need to live eat and breathe it if you want to get to that level and more often than not somethings going to give because there's so much pressure always to be the best band on the bill, get people in the door, keep everything fresh and no to mention the fact that you're living in your band mates pockets alot of the time.

 

great memories and wouldn;t change it for the world but being one of the best bands on the scene isn't always everything it's cracked up to be.

[jim e. grappler]

Wow! That is a good point. So, what do you aspire to have as an alternative? Or, are you still wanting that kind of situation?

[Tedster]

Of course, upon further thought...it's kinda like the old David Brenner joke...

 

"I found what I was looking for...it was in the LAST place I looked...

 

Of COURSE...how many times do you find something and then keep looking for it?"

 

:D

[MrKnobs]

Here's my advice:

 

Start with no less than two and no more than two extremely talented, dedicated people with a shared dream; one of them must be an excellent singer and both must be terrific songwriters. Hopefully, one of them is you.

 

Next, sell your house, car, blood, body, whatever and use the money to live on while you write 12 absolutely brilliant and original songs, and to hire four of five of the most proficient, creative and incredibly talented session musicians you can get your hands on.

 

Cut a fantastic album.

 

Thank all the guest musicians and hug them goodbye, you can't afford them and they really aren't into touring anyway.

 

Put an ad in the local music paper looking for sidemen. There are literally thousands of great cover band players in any fair sized town who can take your CD and learn it note for note so well that you'd think they came up with the parts. Of course, in reality they could never have come up with those parts, but you'll worry about that when you get to the second album.

 

Send everyone who responds a copy of your CD and tell them if they are into it, and think they can hang, schedule an audition. If singing is part of what they'll be required to do, make them sing to you on the phone. If they won't do that, either they suck or they're shy, and neither will work. There are a lot of people who think they can sing and significantly fewer who actually can. This will save you a lot of time in the next step.

 

Rent a practice room at the local rehearsal facility and audition everyone who actually shows up. Go ahead and double book people because (a) half of them won't show, (b) it will only take you 5 minutes to know whether someone can play or not, and © anyone that might have to wait will demonstrate their patience and personality to you, which is a good thing to know in advance.

 

Pick the right group to perform your material, and keep the phone numbers and email addresses of the runners up, you'll need them.

 

Congrats, you now have a band. Conflict is minimized because you haven't wasted any time with the wrong people, and you are are the boss so any conflict will be swiftly resolved. The people you choose know exactly what is expected of them and have already demonstrated they can play and sing the material. If one of them somehow sneaks through your screening process, you can fire them promptly without drama and call the next guy on the list.

 

Now you have to get gigs and figure out how to keep them paid and happy. This is easier if you're independently wealthy. If not, hire someone who knows what they're doing with promotion and booking. Determine this by finding out who books the most successful bands in your town, then checking with the bands at a show to find out how happy they are with thier choice. If the news is good, find that person and do whatever it takes (bribery, sex, flattery, lying, etc) to get them to agree to take your band on. Sign anything they insist on you signing, there are easy ways to get out of any contract if things go horribly sour. These people know that, so any drastic disagreement can be negotiated amicably without the need for legal counsel.

 

That's it, the rest is out of your hands until album number 2. The booking person will do her job, the publicist will do hers. Did I mention those two people should be women, if possible? This makes the flattery more effective, and the sex more palatable (see step above). Besides, women are just plain better at things that require cooperation between people.

 

Your part is simply to show up and perform at the shows to the best of your ability, keep yourself disease and drug free, and don't piss off any sex partners to the point they might kill you onstage. Any trouble with a band member, warn them once, then replace them if they continue to cause problems. They're cover players, that's the beauty of it.

 

You're a rockstar. Hope that helps.

 

Terry D.

 

P.S. Don't even think about a "democracy" band. It's show business, not show friends. Tell your sidemen right from the start exactly what's expected of them, and what's not OK. Bands break up because the members aren't on the same page and with no prior understanding, they'll think you should switch to their page. People work best in environments where a lot is expected from them and they are trusted and appreciated for doing it. They don't like surprises.

 

The biggest part of putting together a team is to get everyone's sacred cows out on the table, and see if they can all graze in the same pasture. Often, the answer is no, and your band will break up if you have no procedure in place to accomodate change without interrupting the forward momentum of the band.

 

Once you get good people, treat them very well. Work as hard as you expect them to work. If you aren't rowing your ass off, they won't be either. If you lose money on a show, go into your own pocket to make sure your people are paid and comfortable, and know they're appreciated.

 

P.P.S. A final thought regarding quitting on the verge of success: Yes, that's really common. Why? Because success changes everything. Some of your band members don't really want to succeed, they liked things the way they were. They don't want to tour, or be under pressure. They don't want to play so many shows, they don't want to leave family and friends behind, it's frightening. They just thought they wanted the dream. So they'll quit. Let them go and hire others as described above.

 

Also, success changes perception. Before the record contract, "Bill" the singer was "funny." Now those moves he makes on stage are suddenly "embarassing" and "dorky." Before the contract, "Jim" the keyboard player played "sparse and tastefully." Now, he "can't hang" with the other players. Everyone looks at everyone else and finds fault, because they're afraid. All it takes to fix this is for the bandleader to gather everyone together and address the issue plainly: "Guys, we're none of us perfect but take a look around you. These are the people that got us here to our dream, each and every one of them. We all worked our ass of for this dream, now let's f*cking live it!"

[squealie]

That's very clever Knobs.

 

I for one, don't believe that's the ONLY path to some sort of success.

[JBJ]

Mr Knobs, excellently put

 

 

Originally posted by jim e. grappler Wow! That is a good point. So, what do you aspire to have as an alternative? Or, are you still wanting that kind of situation?

 

in response to this. I'm only 20, I may sound like a full of {censored} punk but I've been playing out since I was 14, learned a whole lot on the way and have amassed more knowledge ont he business and industry than alot of people ever will so my opinions are at least worth taking onto account IMO.

 

now I've got that out of the way. As I said, I'm 20, I'm a twin so my bro whos drummign for our covers thing just now is 20 by default and my bass player is 21. we're still young and could make another proper go at it if we wanted but wether we actually want to is another thing.

 

We started playing together when we were 13 and although we've went through a handful of members, us 3 are the backbone and the band wouldn't work without us 3 it's as simple as that i've tried and failed miserably to work with other guys doing my songs and it just doesn't work. I would not do it without these 2 guys. Covers is different but for our own stuff, if one of us isn't there, it's not us and it's not going to work unless someone else is writing and to be honest, my bro is the only other song writer I've worked with that i actually think can write a decent tune (as hard as it is to admit)

 

that's one reason. we're all in different situations too. they 2 work, I'm a student. i'm not leaving uni to pursue a dream just because the opportunity is there. it's been there before and Ive not went for it when i had much less responsibility. they are somewhat the same. none of them have great jobs but they get promoted now and again, both have long term girlfriends and in a couple of years we are really going to have to face up to maturity as opposed to now when we get to pretend we're mature while we can still act like morons with the best of them

 

i know a few guys who are signed and that;s what they do for a living, they make much less than my bro or mate do, they are constantly arguing with each other (remember the living in each others pockets) to the point where some of them don't event alk to each other. they love doing it but it's not as fun as when they started, exactly what happened to us. on the other hand I'm pretty good friends with a guy who's in a really succesful covers band, he makes at least

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Tedster Of course, upon further thought...it's kinda like the old David Brenner joke... "I found what I was looking for...it was in the LAST place I looked... Of COURSE...how many times do you find something and then keep looking for it?" :D

 

More times than you might think.

 

A research study a while back demostrated that when looking for an item in a list (e.g. your name) the brain and eyes continue to scan the entire list even after the name is found. The person scanning the list is unaware of this afterwards.

 

Terry D.

[Tedster]

P.S...I dug "Pretty"...great horn-driven funk/pop.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Tedster P.S...I dug "Pretty"...great horn-driven funk/pop.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Terry D.

[forceman]

Impressive--very good experience/observations posted here!

 

(where is that "thumbs-up" smilie when you need it...)

[Tedster]

Originally posted by MrKnobs Thanks for listening! Terry D.

 

Well, thanks for recording it and providing the link ...oh...you don't have the "thumbs-up" graemlin here...

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Tedster Well, thanks for recording it and providing the link ...oh...you don't have the "thumbs-up" graemlin here...

 

You don't like the thumb up top?

 

Terry D.

[Tedster]

Oh...there ya go..

 

Just used to this one, I reckon...

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MrKnobs P.P.S. A final thought regarding quitting on the verge of success: Yes, that's really common. Why? Because success changes everything. Some of your band members don't really want to succeed, they liked things the way they were. They don't want to tour, or be under pressure. They don't want to play so many shows, they don't want to leave family and friends behind, it's frightening. They just thought they wanted the dream. So they'll quit.

 

Very true, this happens a lot. It's amazing too how many bands I've seen break up when they're in the studio making their first record (or shortly thereafter). All their weaknesses come out in the studio and they can't handle the self consciousness. Or they take their label advance and blow it on drugs, and become unbearable to deal with in the studio. Or they become unbearable because being so close to their dream makes them endlessly chase perfection and spend hours in the studio obsessing over minutia that don't matter and that ultimately kills the performance. And of course there are the band disagreements over song arrangements, or maybe they find out somebody or other just sucks in the studio.

 

And if that doesn't break up the band, the subsequent year on the road together promoting the record will. Or getting dropped by their label if the first record fails to meet expectations... blah blah blah. There are a million reasons why bands break up just as they're getting off the ground.

 

This is why I don't think a band should ever form for the purpose of "becoming rockstars." Get in a band because you love the music and you love the people, and just fly under the radar for quite some time while you develop your sound and your relationships. Agree on what your goals are and maybe just as importantly, what they are not, so you don't have five different people with five different sets of expectations for the band. Do some self financed recordings and have fun with it so you get some recording experience... and so on. If you have a solid foundation both musically and personally, you're more likely to survive the music biz, and be able to turn down anything that looks like it would kill the buzz.

 

I somewhat have to disagree with Terry that the best way to have a band is to hire people as sidemen. This is probably an easier approach than a more democratic band, but my band is very much a democratic band and it works great. It's a matter of finding the right people who are on the same page... and not being the problem yourself of course. Either approach can work and it depends on the personalities and musical style involved which one will work best.

[januaryscar]

I m glad i started this thread...

it really clarifies things.

Some great points have been made.

[Micky Z]

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier ... I don't think a band should ever form for the purpose of "becoming rockstars." Get in a band because you love the music and you love the people, and just fly under the radar for quite some time while you develop your sound and your relationships. Agree on what your goals are and maybe just as importantly, what they are not, so you don't have five different people with five different sets of expectations for the band. Do some self financed recordings and have fun with it so you get some recording experience... and so on. If you have a solid foundation both musically and personally, you're more likely to survive the music biz, and be able to turn down anything that looks like it would kill the buzz.

 

Thank you, Lee. I immediately emailed this to my own band, to confirm what we've been saying to each other for a few months now. It's the perfect expression of what's been motivating us. Again, thank you!

[Lee Flier]

You're welcome. Being from L.A. I saw wayyy too many bands not have their priorities straight that way, and fall apart. Including quite a few that I was in. It really broke my heart, and it feels so much better now to have bandmates that are on the same page and know why we're doing this... so if I can help ANY cool band stay together by not falling into any of these traps, I would feel most gratified!

 

I forgot to mention a couple of other things that cause bands to break up on the verge of success, and they're actually pretty common:

 

1) When you get to the point where people have to quit their day job in order to get to the next level in your career. That can be a deal breaker for some, especially people with families. Quitting your job in order to go on tour and MAYBE break even for quite some time, can be a pretty daunting proposition, depending what kind of job it is.

 

2) When some industry mook latches onto the band and tells one or two of its members "You're the star. You don't need all these other guys," and the person believes it.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Lee Flier 1) When you get to the point where people have to quit their day job in order to get to the next level in your career. That can be a deal breaker for some, especially people with families. Quitting your job in order to go on tour and MAYBE break even for quite some time, can be a pretty daunting proposition, depending what kind of job it is. Yep, that's a compelling argument to either use young people in your band (more idealistic, and generally have easy to replace jobs) or have no more than two "core" band members. You can always get mercenaries, who will usually be better players than the guys who brought you this far. The more money you make, the better mercenaries you can afford. See the Tom Hanks movie "That Thing you Do" for how it works. 2) When some industry mook latches onto the band and tells one or two of its members "You're the star. You don't need all these other guys," and the person believes it. Very, very true. And, until you experience it, you won't believe how low a level it begins at, and how fast the flattered person will believe it. It might even be true, but where does it end? I was once in a band where the other guitarist stated, "Whenever we run into someone who is a better player than one of us, we should replace that person. That way we'll end up with an incredibly kick ass band." Yeah, with none of us in it. After many painful lessons, here's what I do. I make sure everyone is invested in each other in black and white (contract) and $$$green. That doesn't keep anyone from quitting, but it does tend to make me wish them well since their success will now be my success as well, thanks to the songwriting and publishing contracts.

 

Terry D.

 

P.S. I have to admit my plan backfired on me not once but twice. I cut an album with an Austin girl who is now moderately famous. She got picked up by a record label and of course fired all of us as per their instructions. But I had joint form SR and PA rights with her on all the songs. So what did she do? She has two successful CDs out, neither of which have any of those songs on them. She plays them live, but will not record them. To me, this is nuts. Her record co. should contact me and they'd find me very reasonable. I might just call them and tell them that myself, maybe they haven't even heard these tunes.

 

The very first album I made in Austin has never been released. That girl and I stuck together for a couple of years, then went separate ways (her choice) as we began to see things differently. That's OK. Then, not a month after we were playing in different bands, a NY record co. called us and offered to fly us to NYC on their dime to discuss signing. I called her up and said let's see what they have to say. Her reply: "Not with you, no way, not ever!" So I told her at least call the dude and see if she could swing the deal for herself, which she did. The guy was like, "Oh, no thanks, my understanding was I was getting a working band."

 

Interesting epilogue to that one.

 

Years and years later I was in Brenham TX working sound for some country legends when the light guy introduced his new g/f to me, who looked very familiar. Turns out it was the sister of the "No way" chick I had been partners with. She didn't remember me at all, which is reasonable since I'm not sure I ever met her. Troy (the light guy) and her start telling me her big sis is some kind of star out in Cali now, has an album out, etc. etc. Of course I'm curious and more than a little jealous, so I ask questions and it turns out li'l sis has a copy out in her car. On the break I go out and check it out, and IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN' ALBUM SHE AND I RECORDED 5 YEARS AGO.

 

At that moment, I released all my anger I had built up and just felt sorry for her. The master tape was sitting on my shelf losing all its highs and lows and turning to goo, I had gone on to other stuff, but I guess that was still the bragging point of her life at that point.

[XamendedX]

been in 3 bands and this HAS been the case...my last band was talking with different labels and then our vocalist left to try out for AILD, didn't get it and broke the band up to start a band that he thought would "make it", left that band to join another band called "Die Like Me", who are managed by Tim of AILD.

 

my new band (kinda, been together for a little over a year now), is successful to an extent, we printed 100 copies of our demo about 5 months ago and all 100 sold out in america and europe within months, we are on the radio in Argentina every day, have been fetured on the local hard rock station and have another feature coming up for our yet to be named full-length album...hopefully we'll get signed:)

[forceman]

So, MrKnobs , I am interested: regarding your last post, what was your next step?

[anothertxn]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs Here's my advice: etc.

 

 

Sadly, that kills everything I love about doing music. Sure, great for if you just want to cash in, but for me the process of creation with a group of others on an equal playing field is what makes music an enjoyable form of expression. I don't do commercial music, and no, I don't plan on making any money off what I do, but I've gotten a cover story in the Chronicle, I've had people all of the country buy our record, I've played packed houses in some of the best places in our shared town...and all with people I consider friends and equals in terms of how we operate the band, and without all the brown-nosing you suggest. Yeah, that is all small banannas, and it isn't anything to brag about (and I certainly don't mean it that way), but I'm proud of what we've achieved and the ethics we've had in doing so. Sure, if you want to make a ton of money, follow your plan. I'd just prefer to opt out.

[Lee Flier]

 

Originally posted by steers b-c Sadly, that kills everything I love about doing music. Sure, great for if you just want to cash in, but for me the process of creation with a group of others on an equal playing field is what makes music an enjoyable form of expression.

 

 

Yeah, for me too. Not at all a judgement on anybody else if it works for you, but wouldn't want to be a band leader and pay people to play for me.

Definitely, having a leader and hired guns makes a lot of things easier, like I said. And money is a good incentive to keep people from quitting for stupid reasons.

 

But... I guess I took the opposite approach from Terry after having been through (it sounds like) a lot of similar experiences and being really burned by it. I decided I wasn't going to play in a band again until I really found the right people to play with who were on the same page. And lord knows it was a long wait, but worth it. "Band" definitely means different things to different people and it's good to sit down with yourself and ask yourself what you really want out of a band.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by forceman So, MrKnobs , I am interested: regarding your last post, what was your next step?

 

Next step? Not sure which post you're referring to.

 

Julie / Pebblestar and I just signed a contract with a huge company. I don't want to talk about it too much yet because that'll be just that much more crow I'll have to eat when it goes sour. It's a very strange deal, that's all I'll say for now. The contract was like 40 pages long, legal sized paper and small print. Probably come to nothing, but what the hell, worth a try.

 

Terry D.