Members elsongs Posted August 4, 2005 Members Share Posted August 4, 2005 My R&B band played last Saturday at a local restaurant. As we were setting up the owner asked me how many people we were expecting. Our agreement so far was that the band would make 100% of the door and the restaurant gets its take from food and drinks. But then he was asking me about guarantees for the night, that the restaurant needs $500 to break even for the night and usually in the past bands would have to comp the house if they didn't break even. So being that my bandmembers and I promoted the heck out of this show for the past month, I didn't think it was a problem. I expected at least 30 people easy and even told the owner I encouraged them to eat and drink there. Well, that they did, but for the night only 16 people showed up. I was distraught for the entire gig. I kept a pro attitude and played the heck out of the songs, but in the back of my mind I knew I'd have to pay the restaurant at least $200 to cover for the lost revenue. I was also contemplating gigivn up playing live, because I had never been this financially in the hole for just one gig that I'd spent a lot of time and energy preparing for and promoting. At the end of the night I was figuratively ready to bend over and recieve the brunt of the financial pain. But the owner told me he was so impressed with the sound and quality of the band, he even told me we were the best music act that's ever performed there. He's also the chairman of an annual festival in that part of town and told us we can play at next year's festival. To top it off, he wanted us to play there once a month, and we decided on doing the 3rd Friday of the month. He also told me he's waiving the fee for lost revenue and just told me to give the waitress and main kitchen guy a generous tip instead. So in the end I was out only $60 instead of $250. I guess the moral to the story is pretty obvious...One of the band members described the show as "an audition."Here I was expecting us to never play there again, and now we have a monthly gig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBJ Posted August 4, 2005 Members Share Posted August 4, 2005 if an owner turned round and told me we'd be expected to make up anything under their break even out of our own pockets I'd have walked. that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. EDIT: holy {censored} I just noticed the bit at the end where you tipped them for what sounds like not doing a whole load of work. that's what people in the business call getting bent over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members e-b-e Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Bands comping the venue when the venue doesn't break even? Thats crazy! Playing "for the door" already has enough potential for a band not to make crap ----- and to make the band pay the venue for a slow night ----- no way! Normally my band has a guaranteed price for any given show, as many of the venues don't even have a cover charge. We did however play one show that was "for the door". Basically they supplied the door person and we'd get 100% door. The place was pretty dead so we cut our night short (played 1 1/2 sets instead of 3) took our $60 (lol, it was really dead there) and went home. At another venue, we got the door (we supplied person) and we also got a set amount from the venue (50% of what we'd normally get) - that show worked out pretty decent for us and the venue as well. I'm sure you guys played your asses off but perhaps the owner was trying to pull one over on you and is looking to take advantage of you in the future....beware! Just wondering if at this venue the bartenders and waitresses plan on giving you large tips at the end of a busy night ---- think about it ---if you brought in a ton of people they should have alot of tip money at the end of the night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BndGrl Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 But the owner told me he was so impressed with the sound and quality of the band Or maybe he was impressed that he had finally found a band that would fall for his "you owe us now" scheme. He's also the chairman of an annual festival in that part of town and told us we can play at next year's festival. I'm sure he's giving you a great "deal" on his "entry fee" too! Seriously, any business you do with this man in the future should be done in writing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members e-b-e Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Another way to look at it...... You PAID $60 to provide entertainment for a business that should have been paying YOU. You said you thought you'd have to pay them $200 for the "lost revenue"....... how did you playing cause them to lose revenue? You were clearly taken advantage of. Sorry to say it. But I'm hoping you don't fall for it again, that'd be even worse if you buy in to the venue's bull{censored}. Might be a good idea to look into playing at the venue's closest competition--heck--at the very worst they'd probably let you play for free and you'd still be ahead of the game! Don't give your music for free (or worse- pay for it!) The exception of this of course is a benefit/fundraiser type of show which is totally a different situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Wow... hate to say it elsongs but everyone's right here - you've been seriously taken advantage of. If a restaurant doesn't have enough patrons to break even how is that in any way the band's fault? The guy basically is asking you to subsidize HIS business! If you agreed to pay for the door you get the door - those people have paid to see the band. When the guy came over to you and started asking about "guaranteed numbers of people" and paying for "lost revenue," your answer should have been, "Our agreement was that we get the door." Period. And if the guy refuses to do that, you pack up your stuff and go home. And it's not your obligation to "give the bartenders a big tip" either - if you feel like tipping them for serving YOU drinks, that's fine and your choice but the owner has no right to demand it. It's unbelievable how much people think they can screw musicians and get away with it - because there are so many bands wanting to play for people that they CAN get away with this crap. Please make a simple rule: No paying to play, unless it's a benefit or you're putting on the show yourself, hiring the hall and selling tickets. If you ever play this restaurant again, be very firm that you get the door and you're not responsible for his restaurant breaking even. Sleazebags know no bounds in this business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 I have to agree with the others. You PAID the guy to play at his club and you're happy (and surprised) he asked you back. Sorry dude, but you have chump written all over your forehead. If his food is so bad that he can only bring in 16 customers, that's his problem not yours. Why would you want to pay to play in front of 16 people at a club that takes you for fools anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fastplant Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Sorry man, I gotta agree with everyone in this thread. You got screwed. There's no reason a band should ever PAY let alone not get the door. I wouldn't play there again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tedster Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Boy, if any owner said I would have to pay THEM for them not breaking even...I'd have pretended I was Led Zeppelin and they were a hotel room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBJ Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 btw this is one of the biggest reasons why i really don't give a {censored} about playing my own music out anymore because you get bent over at every opportunity especially the clubs and promoters, though none of them expected us to make up their overheadson a night. I'd rather "lose integrity" and get paid to play other peoples songs and have a packed bar, free tab and basically a fun time with no bull{censored} involved as opposed to {censored} like this getting pulled on a regular basis. IF you do go back (which I wouldn't for trying to pull that stunt never mind actually letting him away with it) 1: get a contract written up sayign exactly what you're getting paid, how long you play for, what you'll provide, what the club will provide etc... if he won't sign reasonable terms then he's really taking you for a ride. and 2: get paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 5, 2005 Members Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by elsongs My R&B band played last Saturday at a local restaurant. As we were setting up the owner asked me how many people we were expecting. Our agreement so far was that the band would make 100% of the door and the restaurant gets its take from food and drinks. But then he was asking me about guarantees for the night, that the restaurant needs $500 to break even for the night and usually in the past bands would have to comp the house if they didn't break even. I would have packed up and walked out at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tedster Posted August 6, 2005 Members Share Posted August 6, 2005 Bar owner: "You can play here, we'll pay you $500" Band member: "Make it $250 and you've got a deal. Will you take large bills?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bobmeredith Posted August 7, 2005 Members Share Posted August 7, 2005 I agree with all the other posters on this one. But let me go one step further. What you did was wrong. I'm assuming that you and the rest of the band don't play for a living. (please correct me if I'm wrong). What you've done is made it almost impossible for a group of prosto negotiate a reasonable fee. This may even have a flow on effect to other venues in town once other venue owners get the same idea. The sad fact is that the entertainment industry worldwide is being killed by well meaning amateurs with day gigs. You don't mean to put pros out work, you just luuuuuuv music don't you? I don't mean to be harsh (and after all most pros have been amateur at one point) BUT YOU SHOULD NOT PLAY FOR LESS THAN THE GOING RATE no matter how much you love playing. LET ME RUN THIS LITTLE SCENARIO PAST YOU: Let's pretend that professional musician goes to a trucking company or a construction site and says; I earn a comfortable living as a musician but it's always been my lifelong dream to be a truck driver or dogman, I'll work for half what you pay the other guys because I love it so much. The company agrees and puts you on, What do you think would happen? Apart from him being beaten to a pulp, the Teamsters would probably close down all transport state-wide or the construction site would be closed down. Why is that only in the entertainment industry is it ok to take jobs away from pros and no one bats an eyelid. If you're going to play venues at least charge the going rate, and NEVER PAY TO PLAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDLMUSIC Posted August 7, 2005 Members Share Posted August 7, 2005 Not much I can add to everyone else's comments, except to say that LA seems to be the mecca for musicians's who are willing to pay to play. The whole showcase concept, where a club gets free entertainment from a band who is desperately hoping to attract some attention from someone who can possibly further their careers, is so big that it's hard to even get paying gigs anymore. I stick to the small clubs and bars outside of the big city. The pay is not great, but at least I know how much I'm going to make going in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hollow body Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Bobmeredith: The problem is that anyone can play rock and blues. A musician used to have to be a skilled craftsman; these days a beginner can buy some gear and in 6 months be gigging. Telling amateurs to cut down their gigging is like telling a kid to quit getting laid. It seems to me that a pro's main job anymore is getting the work. There are lots of ways to score the bucks with a good band, but you have to be willing to do the leg work that amateurs won't do and don't know how to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Hollow body Bobmeredith:The problem is that anyone can play rock and blues. A musician used to have to be a skilled craftsman; these days a beginner can buy some gear and in 6 months be gigging. Telling amateurs to cut down their gigging is like telling a kid to quit getting laid. What a misguided thing to say. Judging from the comments my band gets, there are a whole lot of people out there that really suck. The musician that is ready to gig after 6 months is extremely rare or non-existant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hollow body Posted August 9, 2005 Members Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by GCDEF What a misguided thing to say. Judging from the comments my band gets, there are a whole lot of people out there that really suck. The musician that is ready to gig after 6 months is extremely rare or non-existant. Right. What I'm getting at is bands that suck still get gigs. They probably don't get paid much, or play for free, but they absorb a whole lot of the demand for musicians, as do DJ's. We can bitch about all that, or we can get busy and scare up the serious work that they can't access. Also, don't get me wrong on the craftsman thing. A good blues player is obviously every bit the craftsman a good clarinet player was 50 years ago. I'm just saying the point of entry, or competence, is much lower in the rock/blues scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Yeah well, the trouble is if you actually really love rock or blues and have put a lot of years into becoming good at playing it, just "going out and getting serious work" isn't really an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Timezarrow Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Apart from the philosophical issues involved in paying to play or playing cheap, this guy was trying to change the deal as the band is setting up. Everything needs to be agreed on ahead of time. Who negotiated the gig anyway? What was said at that time? As soon as the guy indicated he was changing the deal at show time, he needed to be told he was breaking the agreement and there would be no band that evening unless the verbal contract was fulfilled. The world is full of people willing to take advantage of a sucker. I don't see how you could trust this guy in any future dealings. His "give back" of money he didn't earn had the desired effect of making you feel like he did you a favor. It sounds like he's setting you up for the big one, or plans to keep you on the hook for continued abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 elsongs, the bottom line is you need a written contract. Check the link I added in the "contract" thread on this forum; you should be able to find something in the linked website that you can modify to fit your needs. If the restaurant owner won't sign, don't go back. I recognize it's difficult to turn down some potential income, but you really do need to cover your ass. When negotiating fees, a lot of new musicians figure they're being paid for X hours of work at a show and figure $300 split 4 ways is not a bad deal, but then completely fail to take in account their practice time, cost of equipment, time driving to and from the show and wear on their vehicles. Even with a 4 piece band that practices only once per week, a weekly 4 hour gig that pays $300 and requires an extra hour for setup and teardown works out to be only $6.25 per hour. That doesn't include your equipment costs, time on the road, or personal practice time, which should be no less than 1 hour per day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by Hollow body Right. What I'm getting at is bands that suck still get gigs. They probably don't get paid much, or play for free, but they absorb a whole lot of the demand for musicians, as do DJ's. We can bitch about all that, or we can get busy and scare up the serious work that they can't access. Also, don't get me wrong on the craftsman thing. A good blues player is obviously every bit the craftsman a good clarinet player was 50 years ago. I'm just saying the point of entry, or competence, is much lower in the rock/blues scene. Originally posted by Lee Flier Yeah well, the trouble is if you actually really love rock or blues and have put a lot of years into becoming good at playing it, just "going out and getting serious work" isn't really an option. Lee, I'm guessing that what he's referring to is that because most bars/taverns/clubs have owners/managers that only look at the "bottom line", they see a mediocre band that is desperate enough to play cheaply (or free) as being the better "value"...not matter how good another band actually is. Thus, gigs outside of the "usual" bars/clubs/tavern scene can be very lucrative...I, myself, make a lot better money by not playing in these types of venues...instead, I concentrate on restaurants, private parties, festivals, "institutions", libraries, schools, etc. And, contary to (what appears to be) popular belief, rock and blues bands can do these gigs, too, if they modify their acts somewhat! Worth investigating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hollow body Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Right. These days the club scene (around here anyway) is a circle of hell for a band -- to be avoided whenever possible. I don't quite see Lee's point, but mine is that guys like him -- serious players -- can always get good gigs if they spend the time looking for them. I'm not a pro, but I make good dough playing weddings and parties; the only club we ever play is a private joint that gives us the door, cheap drinks and a friendly attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrbass Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dude, You have got to be kidding me!!! Please don't take this personally, but what are you thinking? This guy just tried to screw you and you're walking away going "hey, this'll turn out pretty good!" Hey, I've got a bridge for sale in Long Beach, are you interested? Unless you suck so bad that you actually drove people out of his establishment, you owe him nothing. BTW - I checked out your site, and you don't suck. This screwball is so full of sh*t, I can smell him all the way from Santa Monica. Legally speaking, unless you signed an agreement gauranteeing him X amount of income based soley on your performance and draw, there's nothing owed. The balls of this guy to say that to you. He's providing food, service, and atmosphere. If his hole in the wall Chinese restaurant serves lousy food by rude servers and people don't want to go there that's his problem. He could hire the Stones and it won't change a thing. Don't be so deperate for a place to perform that you bend over for some jerk who wants to ensure he'll make money. F*ck him. He's in business, it's HIS JOB to ensure he makes money. You're the entertainment. If I were a business owner the last people I'd want to live and die by is the musicians playing my establishment. What if they break up, or quit and decide go to play someplace else? I'm dead. Dude, I'll tell you what. If you pay me $250, you can play my living room every month. The atmosphere's way better. I'll invite all my friends over so you'll get EXPOSURE, and I'll even give you free drinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted August 10, 2005 Members Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by gtrbass Dude, I'll tell you what. If you pay me $250, you can play my living room every month. The atmosphere's way better. I'll invite all my friends over so you'll get EXPOSURE, and I'll even give you free drinks. If I was any closer to CA I'd take that offer. I'm betting that my band can consume more than $250 in drinks each night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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