I'm cursed: demons prevent me from ever having good tone at a gig.

[Hollow body]

I've had a dozen (guitar) rigs over the years, from which I've gotten sweet tone in the studio and at practice. Get to the gig and it's just blah. Always. I think I've had inspiring tone at gigs maybe 10 times -- just enough to keep me craving it.

 

Anyone else have this problem?

[Sordid1]

sometimes I do. I realize that as long as I do my soundchecks from the crowd area at least they will hear good tone. On stage with all the monitors going and everything sometimes it's hard to tell if your tone is good or not.

[whiteroom]

 

Originally posted by Hollow body I've had a dozen (guitar) rigs over the years, from which I've gotten sweet tone in the studio and at practice. Get to the gig and it's just blah. Always. I think I've had inspiring tone at gigs maybe 10 times -- just enough to keep me craving it. Anyone else have this problem?

 

 

I did...until I started learning how to modify my amps, build my own effects and rewire my guitars. I still don't know enough but....

Unbeliveable tones are out there. Some of the better ones are at Radio Shack, not Guitar center.

[zookie]

Nothing ever sounds right on a stage. I'm only playing acoustic duo-type gigs, so I don't usually have enough room for monitors, so hearing yourself is really tough.

 

Do your sound check by having at least one of you step in front of the speakers, hopefully into the crowd area and give the mix a lesson. Once that's been confirmed just trust that it sounds better out there.

[Craig Vecchione]

Well, way too many times the problem that causes "good practice bad gig" tone is forgetting that guitar is a midrange instrument, and having the lows and highs boosted way too much. This is effectively the dreaded "smiley face" EQ that sounds great alone and awful in a band.

[Carbophos]

For me good tone at the gig is when I can hear myself clear across all the stage.

[Badside]

I used to worry about live tone too.

Nowaday I just plug my Gibson straight into my Marshall (well save for a wireless, a wah, a tuner and an OD!), adjusting the shared EQ and the two volumes (rhytm and lead) depending on the venue and let the soundman do the rest.

 

It's not a perfect tone, but a stage performer should worry more about his performance than his equipment, as long as it doesn't suck! Yeah your tone is important, but you have to realize it will never be perfect.

 

We all hate singers who spend an hour combing their hair... well a guitarist who spend an hour tweaking knobs is pretty much the same thing.

[Hollow body]

"...well a guitarist who spend an hour tweaking knobs is pretty much the same thing."

 

Exactly. That's one reason I can't usually get it right: I figure I'm allowed no more then 30 seconds to annoy everyone with my noodling.

 

Trouble is that if I get great tone it inspires me to play better, and bad tone can make me suck. I wish it wasn't so, but what ya gonna do.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by Hollow body Trouble is that if I get great tone it inspires me to play better, and bad tone can make me suck. I wish it wasn't so, but what ya gonna do.

 

Ummm, maybe get over ourselves? Sorry to put it so bluntly, but guitarists amaze me with this tone issue. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY else can tell that you've got a Weber SuperUberShredder VX Mark II, and nobody else cares. It's a band, and tiny nuances of tonal coloration always take a back seat to how the whole band sounds. My guitarist makes me chuckle every time he shows me the latest change....he's replaced speakers, effects units etc. Still sounds like electric guitar. A few months ago he replaced the pickups on his PRS. Yes, on a $2,400 guitar, he's replaced the pickups. Still sounds like an electric guitar. Then the tone and volume pots were replaced. Then he removed the 5-way rotary switch and installed a 3-way toggle. On a $2,400 guitar.

 

It still sounds like an electric guitar.

 

Yes, I fully understand that if it sounds better you're inspired to play better. But if it doesn't.....you suck???? Come on. SO much of this is subjective psycho-crap...and I know because I've fallen victim myself. Have wonderful bass. Have wonderful amp and cabinet. Find pleasing tonal setting, play for hours, happy with sound. Flip power switch off. Come back next night, flip power switch on, start playing. Sounds like chapped ass. Same exact settings. Start fiddling with knobs, doesn't sound better....in fact it's even worse. Shut off power, go upstairs and watch tv the rest of the night. Come back next day, flip power on, still has crap settings from last night, begin playing. Sounds like heaven.

 

As I first suggested, it really helps to just get over ourselves.

[DonaldDemon]

Well maybe for bass players its different but I have the same damn issues. My bass player doesn't give a {censored} how he sounds, for better or worse. As long as it turns on, he is jamming. There is alot more tonal spectrum to guitar. I know how to eq mids and I even bought a parametric eq to boot but my live rig almost never sounds good. In practice my amps sound pretty good but at a gig its piss. Cleans are usually good but distorted tones are shiite. I am still burning through amps to find one that retains clarity at gig volumes. Its either that or some {censored} is not working properly. I feel your pain.

[Hollow body]

Craig: Of course it's psychological. But knowing that doesn't help if one depends on inspiration to play well, and inspiration comes from good tone.

 

Loved the bit about the guy modifying his PRS. I know a guy who bought an old strat for 6 grand, and know what? It sounds like an electric guitar -- like any other decent strat I've ever played.

 

But as they say, perception is reality. Dogs can't hear the difference, but us guitarists can.

[Hollow body]

Originally posted by DonaldDemon Well maybe for bass players its different but I have the same damn issues. My bass player doesn't give a {censored} how he sounds, for better or worse. As long as it turns on, he is jamming. There is alot more tonal spectrum to guitar. I know how to eq mids and I even bought a parametric eq to boot but my live rig almost never sounds good. In practice my amps sound pretty good but at a gig its piss. Cleans are usually good but distorted tones are shiite. I am still burning through amps to find one that retains clarity at gig volumes. Its either that or some {censored} is not working properly. I feel your pain.

 

You've been reading my mail.

 

I've tried every kind of rack, pedal, combo, cab, etc, and nothing sounds right consistently. I'd do the guitar into tube amp thing, but we seldom get to play loud, and I don't like the sound of tiny tube amps. I'm thinking that if volume wasn't an issue, the problem would go away.

[Timezarrow]

The fact that you think your tone is good at practice but not on stage makes me wonder how different your set-up at practice is from the gigs. Maybe you should consider setting up the band at practice as closely as possible to the way it will be on stage. That way you can work on your tone at practice and hopefully have a setting that works for the stage.

 

Normally, we work in a circle more or less at rehearsal, and I hear my rig better and more directly. On stage unless I crank my amp up so that it is really too loud for the band, it just seems bla.

 

But, as at least one person said above, it's hard to get things to sound right from the stage. My wish is to be able to hear myself well enough to play correctly and that the audience hears good tone.

 

I had a show a couple of months ago outside (actually our first gig with the current line-up), and I had to keep turning my amp down because the drummer set-up right in line with the wash from the back-side of my combo. I thought it was weak and thin sounding from where I stood, but after the set, folks were raving about the tone. It happened to be recorded, and it turns out the tone wasn't bad at all - I was just not in a position to enjoy it.

 

Probably every time we have played, I have felt uncertain how the guitar sounded, because from my vantage point it hasn't been anything too impressive. Unless it is recorded, I won't know, so I just take whatever the folks in the audience say as pretty close to true - and go on.

 

Would it be inspiring to hear great tone from the stage? Yep. Is it an excuse to play poorly? I don't think so. As for that, you may think you are playing poorly because of the lack of tone in your ears, but sometimes you can be wrong about that as well.

 

[DonaldDemon]

 

Originally posted by Hollow body You've been reading my mail. I've tried every kind of rack, pedal, combo, cab, etc, and nothing sounds right consistently. I'd do the guitar into tube amp thing, but we seldom get to play loud, and I don't like the sound of tiny tube amps. I'm thinking that if volume wasn't an issue, the problem would go away.

 

 

Volume is definitely an issue. I get yelled at all the time because I am too loud but I can never hear myself playing! I can look past not having some ideal tone but I need to at least hear what I am playing. My drummer is ridicously loud so that doesn't help. I never miked my amp because its 100 watts and never needs to be but last gig i did and sent it through the monitors, That helped a little bit.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by Hollow body Craig: Of course it's psychological. But knowing that doesn't help if one depends on inspiration to play well, and inspiration comes from good tone. Loved the bit about the guy modifying his PRS. I know a guy who bought an old strat for 6 grand, and know what? It sounds like an electric guitar -- like any other decent strat I've ever played. But as they say, perception is reality. Dogs can't hear the difference, but us guitarists can.

 

 

As I wrote, I think I understand the psychology behind it. The problem is hanging your inspirational hat on your guitar (or bass, or drum) tone. There's got to be some other reason you play.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by DonaldDemon Volume is definitely an issue. I get yelled at all the time because I am too loud but I can never hear myself playing! I can look past not having some ideal tone but I need to at least hear what I am playing. My drummer is ridicously loud so that doesn't help. I never miked my amp because its 100 watts and never needs to be but last gig i did and sent it through the monitors, That helped a little bit.

 

 

1. Get the drummer to learn and apply dynamics control. It can be done, and it's part of being an accomplished musician. As long as he's too loud, no way can your stage volume be manageable, and you'll never hear yourself. One Everpresent Truth of Bands is that the bass can't win a volume war with the guitar, and nobody can win a volume war with the drums.

 

2. Carve out your own sonic niche in the band's music. If you're the guitarist, remember you're the guitarist and don't obsess over drop-B tuning and better low end response from your stacked 4x12's. The guy over on the other side of the drummer....he's the bassist, and that part of the sound is his. If you constantly compete for sonic space and volume, you'll never sound good as a band. Listen to what you think is a really tight band recording....notice that nobody is stepping on anyone else, even to the extreme (and not suggesting you try it live) of employing ducking techniques for the kick and bass.

 

3. Record your practice and gigs *with one mic* to demonstrate the above. No fancy recording setup for this; you want to hear the mix, not compensate for it, to see if things are improving. If the audience mix is good but you still can't hear yourself on stage, consider acoustic options like drum shields, amp positioning, etc to get it under control on stage, and then re-listen to the audience mix to make sure it's still good (it'll probably be better).

 

I hope there's something useful here....

[DonaldDemon]

 

Originally posted by Craigv 1. Get the drummer to learn and apply dynamics control. It can be done, 2. Carve out your own sonic niche in the band's music.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

1. I have tried too many times to get my drummer to learn dynamics but its just not happening. His style is using his arms not his wrists so I can't change that. I would find another drummer but it took about 5 years to find a reliable person that still has talent.

 

2. I understand the whole concept of stage sound and frequencies. I know the mids are for vocals and guitar and I never scoop them out on my amps. As for bass my bassist uses a 4x10 cab and lacks low end but I don't try to compensate by cranking mine up. It certainaly is a learning experience with live sound.

Btw, never heard of the ducking technique. Is that like tuning the kick drum and bass amp to different low end frequencies?

[Hollow body]

Thanks for the advice and commiseration, guys.

 

A few comments:

 

I'm more surprised when someone can play well with bad tone than the converse. I find it very off-putting when my tone is off, as do most all the guitarists on these forums. I guess because my mind is working on that instead of my playing.

 

I mention volume because guitar amps just sound better cranked. Mix isn't an issue with me, because I've learned that I'm at optimal level out front when I can just hear myself on stage. It sucks, but I don't worry about it.

 

Timezarrow: I always practice with the rig I'm gigging. That's why the problem has to be demons.

 

And yeah, I've also had nights when other musicians (the only people who ever give a {censored}) raved about my tone when I thought it was blah. That worries me.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by DonaldDemon Thanks for the suggestions. 1. I have tried too many times to get my drummer to learn dynamics but its just not happening. His style is using his arms not his wrists so I can't change that. I would find another drummer but it took about 5 years to find a reliable person that still has talent. 2. I understand the whole concept of stage sound and frequencies. I know the mids are for vocals and guitar and I never scoop them out on my amps. As for bass my bassist uses a 4x10 cab and lacks low end but I don't try to compensate by cranking mine up. It certainaly is a learning experience with live sound. Btw, never heard of the ducking technique. Is that like tuning the kick drum and bass amp to different low end frequencies?

 

 

Perhaps lighter or even basswood sticks, and/or control rings on the drums, ot V-drums. Or the aforementioned drum shields. Until his volume is either controlled or contained, you're screwed.

 

It's probably okay, in fact preferable that the bassist not go for a ton of low end.....it takes ungodly amounts of power (think: 20Kw of PA subs) to really bring the goods that far down....stuff you absolutely don't want from the backline. His midrangy sound can coexist nicely with almost any guitar sound that doesn't strive for that metal detuned objective, so you're probably already in good shape. It really does sound like the drums are the problem point.

 

"Ducking" is the technique of using compression or more effectively, gating, to cause one signal's presence to drop another signal's volume. The most recognizable use is your favorite radio DJ talking over your favorite song. His mic's signal triggers the music channels to compress or gate whenever he talks. It can be used in all sorts of creative ways to keep kick and bass tightly in sync, to allow a guitar solo or lead vocal to suppress backing vocals but allow their volumes to increase instantly between notes, etc etc. Again, not generally something the weekend warrior can pull off well at the local venue, but an example of the lengths taken to maintain good dynamics.

[DonaldDemon]

 

Originally posted by Craigv Perhaps lighter or even basswood sticks, and/or control rings on the drums, ot V-drums. Or the aforementioned drum shields. Until his volume is either controlled or contained, you're screwed "Ducking" is the technique of using compression or more effectively, gating, to cause one signal's presence to drop another signal's volume. The most recognizable use is your favorite radio DJ talking over your favorite song. His mic's signal triggers the music channels to compress or gate whenever he talks. It can be used in all sorts of creative ways to keep kick and bass tightly in sync, to allow a guitar solo or lead vocal to suppress backing vocals but allow their volumes to increase instantly between notes, etc etc. Again, not generally something the weekend warrior can pull off well at the local venue, but an example of the lengths taken to maintain good dynamics.

 

 

I had my drummer usel ighter stick and it did make a difference. He's a tough one, one of the laziest bastards I ever met...f*#$% drummers. I can't even get him to practice on his own.

I never knew that was called ducking. Good stuff.

[ratthedd]

Originally posted by DonaldDemon In practice my amps sound pretty good but at a gig its piss. Cleans are usually good but distorted tones are shiite. I am still burning through amps to find one that retains clarity at gig volumes. Its either that or some {censored} is not working properly. I feel your pain.

 

Two things:

 

1. Point your damned amp at your head.

 

2. Let the sound man turn up your volume through the PA.

[DonaldDemon]

 

Originally posted by ratthedd Two things: 1. Point your damned amp at your head. 2. Let the sound man turn up your volume through the PA.

 

 

 

1. I stand right in front of the damned thing, in fact usually on top of it on smaller stages.

 

2. The soundman, if there even is one and the cab is micked doesn't give a flying {censored}. At least not in NJ they don't. Someone told me to always tip the soundman before a gig $10-20. Yeah right, that's usually my earnings for the night!

[ratthedd]

 

Originally posted by DonaldDemon Volume is definitely an issue. I get yelled at all the time because I am too loud but I can never hear myself playing! I can look past not having some ideal tone but I need to at least hear what I am playing. My drummer is ridicously loud so that doesn't help. I never miked my amp because its 100 watts and never needs to be but last gig i did and sent it through the monitors, That helped a little bit.

 

 

Donald,

 

I'm guessing yoru stage setup is all wrong. Yuo can hear yourself just fine at practice because you're in a tiny room with you amp sound bouncing off all the walls, ceiling and floor, but once you get in a bigger venue the sound only goes out, not back at you.

 

You'll probably be much happier with your tone if you move your amp to the opposite side of the stage from where you're located and point the thing straight back at you. Turn the volume up only loud enough for you to hear yourself, then mic the sucker and let the PA handle the big sound. If you still can't hear yourself, have the sound guy patch your guitar sound back in through your monitor, but be careful with this one 'cause you may get interference between the guitar amp and monitor where certain frequencies get cancelled out.

[ratthedd]

 

Originally posted by DonaldDemon 1. I stand right in front of the damned thing, in fact usually on top of it on smaller stages.

 

 

Is it pointed at your head? Guitar feqencies are very directional and if you're standing next to, or directly in front of your amp all the sound is hitting the lower half of your body instead of getting to your ears. I find an amp stand can help, but you still have to stand back from the amp a bit to have it pointing at your head.

 

 

2. The soundman, if there even is one and the cab is micked doesn't give a flying {censored}. At least not in NJ they don't. Someone told me to always tip the soundman before a gig $10-20. Yeah right, that's usually my earnings for the night!

 

 

Sorry to hear that. I don't have any recommendations for that. Perhaps having someone knowledgeable on PA stuff AND your music sitting in with the sound guy can help?

[DonaldDemon]

 

Originally posted by ratthedd Is it pointed at your head? Guitar feqencies are very directional and if you're standing next to, or directly in front of your amp all the sound is hitting the lower half of your body instead of getting to your ears. I find an amp stand can help, but you still have to stand back from the amp a bit to have it pointing at your head.

 

 

I have a half stack 4x12 cab and head. There is no way to angle it at my head. I couldn't put my amp on the other side because then I would never be able to access it. I am always messing with it in between songs. Short of buying big $$$ ear monitors, I see no easy solution.