Cutting through mix

[gtrplayer]

Just looking for advice and offering advice/options...

 

This is regarding gear in a cover band.

 

Rock Cover band

5pc band. 2 guitars, bass drums vocals...

 

I started out with a 1x12 Line 6 Flextone II and it just never seemed to really cut through anything. It sounded really good and had great distortion sounds etc... and other cool things. But when it came to a lead to cut through, it never could push through. Also, the clean tones seem to pretty much suck...just not enough "umph" really....

 

The other dude runs a valvestate head of somes ort into a mini 4x12 and uses about 9 multi effect processors. Essentially he is nothing but a bunch of noise really. Talented, but he wastes it (in my opinion) in all of his effects. AND too damn loud.

 

So, finally after much research and trying... I ended up with a Genz Benz El Diablo 60w Combo! I wanted a combo, for the portability and also went tube to keep it simple.

 

Holy {censored}! THAT thing is just the ticket! It cuts through like a freakin warlock sabor! Amazing the sound it has. (duh! Tubes!) It has a very unique tone to it. I replaced the pre-amp tube with a Sovtech to smoothe the edges just a bit.... I love the thing! It's a freakin tank at 60pounds, but it's still a combo and sounds great.

 

the only problem is that it REALLY makes the other guy sound like {censored}!!!! I mean it really does. I get compliments on the sound every show.

 

I had to spend some cash on pedals here and there and am almost where I want to be... but it's fun!

 

That's my story!

 

 

 

__________________

[agedhorse]

Gtrplayer - you hit upon an important factor in deciding how an amp sounds... if you plan on playing out then it's critical that you consider the tone in context with the mix it sits in. Same with playing styles, it's sometimes advantageous to taylor your style (and/or arrangement) to fit well in the mix. Glad you found something that makes you happy. Now go play some music!!!

 

Some amps sound great by themselves in your living room, but just don't sit well in a mix. In my opinion, that's a big problem if you plan on gigging with it, or even recording in the context of a band mix. Like any amp, there are those who like it and others who have other tastes.

 

The Diablo series was designed with the idea that they would be played out with, and voiced within the context of a band setting. As the primary engineer behind your amp, my background is the pro audio concert touring industry so obviously this product is flavored a bit more for the touring guys and maybe a bit less for the living room gig. My assistant engineer shares some of the same pro audio background too... and between us, this is where we ended up.

 

Andy Field

Product Development Engineer

Genz Benz

[gtrplayer]

Andy!

 

First off, WoW! What a treat to be in touch with yet ANOTHER member of the Genz Benz team!

 

When I bought the amp I had some questions about set up etc... and called the 1800 number etc... Low and freakin behold, who did I speak to?? Non other than Mr. Jeff Genzler himself. He really listened to my question and was inquisitive as to what I was after etc... It was he who recommended the Sovtek tube.

 

How about clean sounds?? Do you have any "secret" settings for a good solid crispy clean sound that bites like a pit bull, yet has the creamyness of soft vanilla pudding?

 

A GREAT company and a solid, awesome, dependable amp that I will have for the rest of my life and hopefully be able to pass on.

 

It is, as you say a "gigging" amp and oh boy does it ever gig. It stands proud and sounds superb every night we play and also at rehearsal.

 

Thank you again Andy and good to hear from you!

Matt

[roabre999]

I always found chorus sounds really good in the bedroom practicing, but on stage it would make my sound TOTALLY disappear. So I got rid of it onstage. The sound is a bit dryer by it cuts through the mix better... If he has chorus maybe suggest he turn it down...

[elbow]

 

Originally posted by gtrplayer Just looking for advice and offering advice/options... This is regarding gear in a cover band. Rock Cover band 5pc band. 2 guitars, bass drums vocals... I started out with a 1x12 Line 6 Flextone II and it just never seemed to really cut through anything.... So, finally after much research and trying... I ended up with a Genz Benz El Diablo 60w Combo! I wanted a combo, for the portability and also went tube to keep it simple. Holy {censored}! THAT thing is just the ticket! It cuts through like a freakin warlock sabor! Amazing the sound it has. (duh! Tubes!) .... the only problem is that it REALLY makes the other guy sound like {censored}!!!! I mean it really does. I get compliments on the sound every show. I had to spend some cash on pedals here and there and am almost where I want to be... but it's fun! That's my story! __________________

 

 

I'm not familiar with the amp that you quote above, but my experiences with many amps and setups is you gotta go with tubes for the great tone, responsiveness to pick attack, dynamics, soul.... the list goes on.

 

There may be some that will come back with some examples of a really good solid state (SS) rig.. but for real giggin' tone, a good tone amp, nearly any brand, is the way to go. For the type of sound I'm going for, I prefer Fender.

 

I've tried the SS route and had the same issues you did in getting good definition or being able to cut through the rest of the band at times when I needed to.

 

Tube amps can be a little more costly to maintain, and some more cost up front to purchase, but well worth the investment in the tone you'll get back... not to mention they seem to hold or increase their value very well.

 

Stomp box effects that can complement your rig are good too, but you gotta have that good "tone foundation" to start with. You may find that an effect that sounded good with your previous rig now sounds better or worse.. if that's the case, you have some "opportunities" to rework your pedal settings or re-evaluate the whole pedal situation with more, less, different ones, etc

 

Good luck!

[agedhorse]

Glad to hear you are happy with your amp.

 

As you have experienced, customer support IS important to us. We know what it's like to be on the customer end too, and treat folks like we like to be treated. Sounds so simple doesn't it? Too bad it's not universally practiced!

 

Clean but creamy can be a combination of many things, but speakers do play a big part. If you voice the amp too creamy, it can become difficult to place in a mix and not get lost... but in a living room that problem does not exist. One suggestion is to experiment with triode mode and see if there's a tone in there that fills your need.

 

As far as the solid state thing, it CAN be done (without modeling of course), but it involves using tube design concepts and topology along with a lot of experience in voicing amps in general. It's not nearly as easy to design this way as just using tubes, and the marketing part is a real bitch and a half. Unfortunately, the motivation for most solid state amps is to build them cheap... and to do it right it's really no cheraper than a tube design. Now another motivation is to build a first class solid state amp that sounds really good and is light weight... that's much more interesting to me. Anybody can do cheap... just look at China for example. Doing good is another story.

[gtrplayer]

Thank you all for your input!

 

Andy,

 

We have rehearsal tomorrow night and I will be experimenting with the triode mode. (gotta get my book out!)

 

I'll be the lone guitar player so I'll be able to very clearly hear things! ha!

 

Also, I can never remember... is it better to have the channel volumes more "up" and then keep it low w the master or vica versa? I would think that it would be better to have each channel hotter and then control the "overall" with the master. Am I right in my thinking here or way off??

 

Thanks again!

[agedhorse]

Generally, you will find the amp most responsive with the master between the 9:00 and 3:00 positions on the master, I personally prefer from around 10:00 up on the master as the sweet spot, especially at gigging volumes.

 

In addition to the sound, you will also want to pay notice as to how the amp feels in terms of playability. That will help you work the amp and tone a bit.

[pinup57]

I use a late 60's all tube Fender Princeton (12 watts!) and tap the speaker output using a Hughes and Kettner Redbox into the monitors and PA. Most of the time (indoors, clubs, bars, pubs) the Princeton is really loud enough by itself, the PA emphasises just a bit of the low end which tends to get lost at a certain distance (small cab). Really cuts through the mix, no problem at all, and amazing tone, really amazing.!

 

I used mostly my '63 Gibson ES335, and an Ibanez RoadstarII equipped with a GR33 for additional midi sounds (GR33 direct to the PA, of course).

 

I'm not a guitar effects maniac, and the 335/Princeton combination gives me most of what I need. I use a GT6 for reverb/delays and overdrive/distortion when playing covers, and nothing else than the amp when playing blues/jazzy and jamming. Very lightweight too!

 

I have a '76 MusicMan HD212 130Watts combo as well, but it's way too powerful for most of the venues nowadays, and awfully heavy, so it's kind of collecting dust actually. Besides, I need to recap the amp.

 

Dirk

[pinup57]

Sorry, I forgot the bottom line in my previous post: to cut through the mix you must use an amp that suits the situation. I happen to think tube amps are the top choice for amplifying electric guitars, but I find they need to be run near full power to get the most out of them. That's why my little Princeton does the job so well: I can play near full power most of the time (still a bit loud in small places).

 

Dirk

[ratthedd]

 

Originally posted by gtrplayer How about clean sounds?? Do you have any "secret" settings for a good solid crispy clean sound that bites like a pit bull, yet has the creamyness of soft vanilla pudding?

 

 

Matt,

 

I noticed in your sig you've got an AC-2. I find that pedal will give me a very clean tone--almost too clean. I haven't needed mine since I got a guitar with piezo pickups, but I was getting some decent tones with the enhance and standard settings. Just adjust the top and body to suit your taste. You might also consider sending the AC-2 output directly into the PA system in order to bypass and coloration you get from the tubes and cabinet. An A/B switch should allow you to send your guitar signal either to your regular pedal/guitar amp signal chain or the AC-2/PA signal chain.

 

As always, play around with it during practice before the gig to make sure it works for you.

[Dale2]

I love my El Diablo 60 C as well. Best amp I have ever played, and it really comes alive in the mix.

 

For cleans try the Jazz clean setting, or the Blackface. Eq to taste.

[gtrplayer]

Dale,

 

Where do you find these settings?

[Dale2]

 

Originally posted by gtrplayer Dale, Where do you find these settings?

 

 

Sorry for the delay. I am using very close to the setting for Blackface or Warm Jazz. I add the "Attack" get the edge then to the tone. Stay close to the setting as the ACTIVE EQ is much more powerful an effect than the typical passive controls. A 3 here is a LOT.

[gtrplayer]

No problem Dale. Thank you.

 

Care to post your actual settings??

 

Hey... I also found that my ears like the voicing of the triomode (30w) setting. Still plenty powerful enough and really smooths out the edges on the distortion channel...

[orfalot]

I used to have the same problem cutting through the mix and the other guitarist didn't. I use a 75 watt Music Man and he had a 50 watt Music Man. I was playing through the 2 X 10 speakers in the cabinet and he was playing through a separate 12" EV. He decided to go for a new amp and let me borrow the 12" EV cabinet which I ended up buying from him. I could not be happier with the sound and ability to jump out of the mix. That guitarist moved out of the area and the "new" guy (he's been with us for seven years now) has always been amazed at the quality of sound and volume I'm able to get. I have a SS amp that can cut through as well and I find that if you get an amp that has a quality clean channel with plenty of volume and then work your effects through a pedal or distortion device that you will maintain the ability to cut through, give it a try. My other amp isn't anything to brag on either, a Randall RG75, but that clean channel will crank and it can just about keep up with the Music Man although the Randall is maxxed out at 10 and the MM is on 2 1/2 (we don't play anywhere that I need more volume than that). I use a Digitech RP300A but most any decent effects pedal will do.

[gtrplayer]

Slyde... thanks for your input. Nice site you have...

 

I have NO problems cutting through mix with my Genz-Benz 1x12"

 

I was curious about a "doubling" effect since Im the only guitar player.

 

Some said delay, of which I have, but I do NOT run it through my effects loop, so my distortion sound WITH my delay on is gorked. The solution is to run it through effects loop.

 

we were discussing other effects to get that doubling "thicker" sound at times...

 

octaver etc...

[zekmoe]

I've found from experience that all these modeling amps do the same thing, get lost in a mix and sound tepid....

except...

if everyone is using them. If you are all on the same tonal plane, you can get decent sound with these. Decent enough for most reasons. Not inspiring or memorable, but it's a valid trade off when you need alot of tones. Think. Either play all thru smoking tube amps or go the Pod/Bose route and get that flatter, but more controlable sound.

[hethaerto4]

As a guy that has done sound a few times for bands, may I make one suggestion for cutting through a mix?

 

Stop blaming your guitars and amps, and start blaming your bass players.

 

What are you trying to cut through? The singer? The keys?

 

Nope. You're trying to cut through a 1500 watt stack of bass mud.

 

Most bass amps have exhaustive EQ options. Use 'em. Cut the {censored} out the midrange. The bass needs to be pounding out that solid bottom end right there with the kick drum.

 

If your bass player refuses to not have his pretty midrange, kill him.

 

If you can tame that bass amp, you can play without as much volume. Your overall sound will clean up considerably, and the crowd will very much appreciate it.

 

Just make sure the kick drum has real thud in the chest tone.

[maxnew40]

I guess BB King must have sucky non-responsive tone because he plays Solid State amps. Dang I thought he sounded pretty good.

 

This new learning amazes me, explain to me again how sheeps bladders can be employed to prevent earthquakes.

 

Max

[maxnew40]

Modelling or not has little to do with cutting through. I use a line6 HD147 and never have a problem cutting through.

 

The real key is midrange. If you are doing the metal scooped mid thing you will get lost in the mix. The guitar is a midrange instrument. Let the bass player hold down the lowend. Boost your mids a bit if you want to fit in the mix.

 

Max

[hethaerto4]

Max,

Have you ever used a compressor in your guitar signal chain?

If so, how did it benefit your tone and projection?

[maxnew40]

I do use a compressor on some sounds mostly clean sounds. If you want a country type clean you almost have to use a compressor. My Amp has a compressor built in. The compressor seems to help clean single note stuff jump out better.

 

All a compressor really does is limit your dynamic range so that almost all notes are the same volume.

 

Max

[Rekel]

It definately doesn't have to be a tube amp to cut through a mix. That's just nonsense. Besides using a well designed amp, guitar and the way you play, it's important to take into consideration what it is that needs "cutting through", as hethaerto4 already mentioned. You will find that if you carefully adjust eq from the other instruments (and the proper voicing of floor monitors with i.e. vocals on them) you can avoid a built up of 'competing' frequencies. The same goes for mixing in a recording studio where folks eq e.g. an acoustic piano or ac. guitar to sound beautiful all by themselves in solo mode but aweful in the total mix. (usually oversaturation in the 250 to 500 Hz area.)

 

Another very important thing that Andy Field (agedhorse) from Genz Benz brought up is arrangement. It happens all too often that musicians in their enthousiasm 'forget' to listen to eachother and everyone is playing licks and fills that are competing. Give eachother some room in the arrangement and you will find a lot more space to cut through.

 

Back to the tube/ SS issue. I have several solid state amps like a Peavey Nashville 400 and an Emmons Lashley LeGrande 600 . The latter uses "Mos Valve" circuitry and was co-designed by BK Butler of Tube Works, which (I believe) has been bought by, surprise: Genz Benz . This amps sounds amazingly good and cuts through anything. Both the Peavey and the Emmons are high powered amps (well above 200 Watts), have 15 inch speakers and have enormous projection. (not to be confused with volume). They were originally designed for pedal steel guitar and therefore excel in the clean department. ( I use one multi effect proc, funny enough an old Boss Se-70 for distortion and it does the job) For example, a Telecaster, country style, will kick some serious ass on these amps.

 

For those who like powerful clean amps with 15 inch: I just recently tried a new Fender Steelking and was really impressed with the clean and creamy sound this SS amp has. (200 watts into 4 Ohms ).

Oh and gtrplayer, tell your other guitar player that he should minimize his effects setup. "9 multi effect processors" is way over the top and it's begging for problems soundprojecting wise.

[Wes_Powell]

Cutting through the mix is about frequency not volume. If you want your leads to be heard, quit scooping your mids.

 

-wp