Need possibilities for filling 3 piece sound during solos

[THX1138]

Originally posted by Body Bomb If your bassist has one of those hollow clicky tones, it just ain't gonna work. If your bassist has a fat tone that sounds big and huge no matter what register he/she is playing in, maybe try having her/him play the bassline an octave higher during the solo. If the bass player has a tube head like an Ampeg V4 that naturally overdrives a little, all the better, as when the bass player moves into a higher register, the amp will distort just a little bit more. Having the bassist move up an octave can provide a sense of urgency that can somewhat compensate for the missing rhythm guitar. Then like others have said, don't rely on sustained single notes, go crazy.

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you said. Move an octive higher? So when the guitarist takes a lead, remove the low end thump from the mix? Seems like thats one of the more crucial times to keep the low end. And don't do single notes, go crazy? So when the guitarist takes a lead, so should the bass player? Can the drummer still keep a beat, or should he go ahead and go crazy too?

 

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I just don't understand bass players who feel the need to overcompensate during a guitar lead.

[MDLMUSIC]

Another wierd phenomenon when switching from chords to single note lines in a trio doing cover tunes is that the missing rhythm parts will be "heard" by the audience members; that is, their minds will fill in the missing parts if they are familiar with the song. The same is true of songs that rely on horn parts; the mind will "hear" the missing parts as if they're there.

[Joey Joe Joe]

Originally posted by THX1138 I have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you said. Move an octive higher? So when the guitarist takes a lead, remove the low end thump from the mix? Seems like thats one of the more crucial times to keep the low end. And don't do single notes, go crazy? So when the guitarist takes a lead, so should the bass player? Can the drummer still keep a beat, or should he go ahead and go crazy too? I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I just don't understand bass players who feel the need to overcompensate during a guitar lead.

 

 

I'm a bass player in a 3-piece and I have to agree with these comments. When the guitar player wants to jack off, that's when the rhythm section really has to tighten up and support the song. I think of it more as a drum n' bass solo than a guitar solo. That's the rhythm sections turn to shine, not because we're going crazy, but because we can keep the crowd moving during a solo. People have a really hard time grooving to an egomaniac whackin off, so the rhythm section has to step up and keep that groove alive. You can't fake the groove with effects or boosting levels, it would sound pretty weird if suddenly the bass is right in your face. That bass should be loud enough during the entire song, and the groove should always be there.

 

To get that groove, the rhythm section needs to practice a lot to be tight as possible. And I don't mean the bass player has to stick to root notes or a simple bassline, you can do whatever you like, just as long as you're keeping the groove alive. If you ever listen to some Steve Vai/Stu Hamm tunes, you'll see there are no simple basslines, but still lots of groove.

 

People mentioned earlier that most bands really are 3-piece in a sense, because the singer doesn't count. Well when a guitar player decides to masturbate for a while, I think of the band as becoming a 2 piece. Just tighten yourselves up and think about keeping that crowd moving.

[tremendo]

I'm very glad that when I solo on guitar my bass player doesn't compete and just keeps the rhythm going. It's called dynamics.

[Guitar Centaur]

Originally posted by Joey Joe Joe I'm a bass player in a 3-piece and I have to agree with these comments. When the guitar player wants to jack off, that's when the rhythm section really has to tighten up and support the song. I think of it more as a drum n' bass solo than a guitar solo. That's the rhythm sections turn to shine, not because we're going crazy, but because we can keep the crowd moving during a solo. People have a really hard time grooving to an egomaniac whackin off, so the rhythm section has to step up and keep that groove alive.

You sure are ASSuming an awful lot here.

Egomaniac whacking off?

FYI: I could go all night and not play a solo, and that would be just fine with me.

IOW: Go {censored} yourself

Oh yea, and thanks for the input.

[Body Bomb]

 

Originally posted by THX1138 I have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you said. Move an octive higher? So when the guitarist takes a lead, remove the low end thump from the mix? Seems like thats one of the more crucial times to keep the low end. And don't do single notes, go crazy? So when the guitarist takes a lead, so should the bass player? Can the drummer still keep a beat, or should he go ahead and go crazy too? I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I just don't understand bass players who feel the need to overcompensate during a guitar lead.

 

 

I meant for the guitar player to go crazy, not the bass player. Should have clarified that, but I thought it came through.

 

And a bass player who can properly EQ an amp can make the 12th fret on the G string thump. Obviously, you missed the part where I said to have a thinck sound no matter what register you're playing in. Besides, don't you ever notice that that the E on the A string rattles the windows a lot more than an open low E?

[Body Bomb]

F'd up.

[Joey Joe Joe]

Originally posted by Crustycabs You sure are ASS uming an awful lot here. Egomaniac whacking off? FYI: I could go all night and not play a solo, and that would be just fine with me. IOW: Go {censored} yourself Oh yea, and thanks for the input.

Well, you're certainly Mr. Vein, aren't you?? What in the blue hell makes you think that I'm talking about you in this thread??? Right off the start I said I was in a 3-piece band, and throughout the whole post I was talking about my own experiences. Did I mention your name once in my post?? Of course not! I don't even know who you are, let alone give a flying {censored} if you can solo all night.

Go {censored} myself???? You have some serious issues here my friend if you can somehow turn my post around in such a way that you believe I'm directing any of it at you. I don't see how you can possibly take offence to what I wrote.

What the hell am I assuming? Sometimes my guitar player likes to solo (to keep my post interesting, I referred to it as 'jacking off', it's called creative writing), and when he solos, the drummer and I tighten up and keep the groove going. Was that not the basic point of my post?? Are there any ASSumptions (oops, looks like my shift key got stuck there too) going on there?? What in the green {censored} are you complaining about anyways??? WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION???

[THX1138]

Originally posted by Body Bomb I meant for the guitar player to go crazy, not the bass player. Should have clarified that. And a bass player who can properly EQ an amp can make the 12th fret on the G string thump. Obviously, you missed the part where I said to have a thinck sound no matter what register you're playing in.

 

 

Guitar player go nuts - makes much more sense.

 

And my reasoning against the octave idea is coming mostly from a live sound standpoint. In most live situations, the bass runs direct, making the amp kinda irrelevant to the FOH mix. (And I have one of those amps you spoke of that can loosen bowels) I use the octave idea myself on occasion, but usually just to punctuate a part here or there. Its my personal feeling that during a guitar lead in a 3-piece, its better to hold down the fort so to speak. I'll admit that there are situations where varying octaves with roots can work well (see Ozzy - Flyin High Again), but the octave alone idea makes me uneasy.

 

But then different styles of music call for different approaches. To each his own.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by THX1138 In most live situations, the bass runs direct, making the amp kinda irrelevant to the FOH mix.

 

 

Oh? Where are you playing? Sheds and arenas? I know that in theaters like the Ryman Auditorium (in Nashville), the stage level is a HUGE issue with the overall mix; I use an SWR Super Redhead with 2 10" speakers, and during a conversation with the FOH guy the last time I did a show there, I learned that even though he was happy at how quietly I played, most of the house sound came from the stage, not from the PA. And in the clubs around here, there's seldom a ton of bass at all in the house mix.

[THX1138]

Originally posted by Dave Martin Oh? Where are you playing? Sheds and arenas? I know that in theaters like the Ryman Auditorium (in Nashville), the stage level is a HUGE issue with the overall mix; I use an SWR Super Redhead with 2 10" speakers, and during a conversation with the FOH guy the last time I did a show there, I learned that even though he was happy at how quietly I played, most of the house sound came from the stage, not from the PA. And in the clubs around here, there's seldom a ton of bass at all in the house mix.

 

 

First of all, I'm in a modern rock band. Everything goes through FOH... Guitars, drums, bass, vocals... everything. Our sound guy runs a full range system including subs. Most of the places we play are 300-400 firecode, the biggest we play holds about 1500.

[Body Bomb]

 

Originally posted by THX1138 Guitar player go nuts - makes much more sense. And my reasoning against the octave idea is coming mostly from a live sound standpoint. In most live situations, the bass runs direct, making the amp kinda irrelevant to the FOH mix. (And I have one of those amps you spoke of that can loosen bowels) I use the octave idea myself on occasion, but usually just to punctuate a part here or there. Its my personal feeling that during a guitar lead in a 3-piece, its better to hold down the fort so to speak. I'll admit that there are situations where varying octaves with roots can work well (see Ozzy - Flyin High Again), but the octave alone idea makes me uneasy. But then different styles of music call for different approaches. To each his own.

 

 

In most of the bands I've been in, we usually have the bass amp miked in most situations. I don't really like the sound of DI'd bass, and neither do most of the bass players I play with! So, we usually request that the bass amp gets miked, which is usually the case anyway at the 200-capacity dives we end up playing at.

 

Of course I don't recommend shifting up an octave for every song, but it's a good trick to have in the bag. A bass player I used to play with did this on a couple songs, and it sounded pretty good. I think The Jesus Lizard did this on a couple songs too, and it sounded pretty good.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by THX1138 First of all, I'm in a modern rock band. Everything goes through FOH... Guitars, drums, bass, vocals... everything. Our sound guy runs a full range system including subs. Most of the places we play are 300-400 firecode, the biggest we play holds about 1500.

 

 

It's as simple as this; if your sound guy wants 105dB at FOH, and stage volume is at 95dB or 100dB, then the sound from the amps is a huge part of what the audience hears; all your sound guy can do is try to balance the mains against what's coming off the stage. And it's not just you - there were Who tours where Entwistle's bass wasn't in the PA at all - he filled the arenas with his stacks of Sunn Amps. And I remember reading that Angus Young's guitars are often not in the PA either, since his stage volume is so bloody loud. And these examples are arena rock bands.

[Guitar Centaur]

Originally posted by Joey Joe Joe Well, you're certainly Mr. Vein, aren't you?? What in the blue hell makes you think that I'm talking about you in this thread???

....and you're obviously a frustrated guitar player who's bitter over getting stuck playing bass because you couldn't handle those extra two strings. Maybe you should speak to your bandmates about a bass solo. It's evident you're upset that you don't get a chance to have all eyes on you...

Please don't bring your talent envy and latent homo-erotic masturbation fantasies into any more of my threads.

[Lee Flier]

I ordinarily delete posts containing personal attacks, but I have to admit you guys insulted each other very creatively. "What in the green {censored}?" was particularly enjoyable.

Probably oughta quit while you're ahead, though.

[MDLMUSIC]

Originally posted by Lee Flier I ordinarily delete posts containing personal attacks, but I have to admit you guys insulted each other very creatively. "What in the green {censored}?" was particularly enjoyable. Probably oughta quit while you're ahead, though.

So now WTF should be replaced by WITGF?

[Guitar Centaur]

Originally posted by Lee Flier Probably oughta quit while you're ahead, though.

k, Hon!



(that's Baltimorese for Yes ma'am....)

[Joey Joe Joe]

Originally posted by Crustycabs ....and you're obviously a frustrated guitar player who's bitter over getting stuck playing bass because you couldn't handle those extra two strings. Maybe you should speak to your bandmates about a bass solo. It's evident you're upset that you don't get a chance to have all eyes on you... Please don't bring your talent envy and latent homo-erotic masturbation fantasies into any more of my threads.

hehe touch

[squealie]

Originally posted by Dave Martin It's as simple as this; if your sound guy wants 105dB at FOH, and stage volume is at 95dB or 100dB, then the sound from the amps is a huge part of what the audience hears; all your sound guy can do is try to balance the mains against what's coming off the stage. And it's not just you - there were Who tours where Entwistle's bass wasn't in the PA at all - he filled the arenas with his stacks of Sunn Amps. And I remember reading that Angus Young's guitars are often not in the PA either, since his stage volume is so bloody loud. And these examples are arena rock bands.

 

 

It's really not that simple. Not in theory, or in practice.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by squealie It's really not that simple. Not in theory, or in practice.

 

 

Oh? Then please enlighten me, if you would. You apparently have deeper knowledge/more experience than I do in this area.

[squealie]

Originally posted by Dave Martin Oh? Then please enlighten me, if you would. You apparently have deeper knowledge/more experience than I do in this area.

I'm gonna assume you are being genuine with this statement.

It's as simple as this; if your sound guy wants 105dB at FOH, and stage volume is at 95dB or 100dB

First, ignoring the compexities of accoustics in an undefined enclosed space.... If you measure 95dB 1 meter from the bass rig, and pretend that FOH position is 16 meters away, then you've lost 24dB, = 71dB. This is less than conversational speech.

Someone else can present the math and physics better than I, but the point is, that relying on stage volume, especially for instruments that contain lots of low-frequency information, you loose most of the (appearant) transient once you get a few meters away. The percieved level is knocked down by orders of magnitude. The PA not only re-inforces the signal, but distributes it.

In personal experience, (THX and I have performed nearly 1000 shows together) we like lots of stage volume. And THX's SVT is thunderous. But in all but the smallest of rooms, there's no way I would not put bass in the PA.

Now if he had 8 8x10s stretched across the entire backline (ie, Entwistle), that would be different. He could then generate enough power and diffusion to not need a PA. Unfortunately, now every open mic in the room is awash with bass.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by squealie


First, ignoring the compexities of accoustics in an undefined enclosed space.... If you measure 95dB 1 meter from the bass rig, and pretend that FOH position is 16 meters away, then you've lost 24dB, = 71dB. This is less than conversational speech.


Sorry - I meant (and should have stated) that "...stage sound measures 95dB at FOH...". And while the inverse square law does have some effect outdoors (though not actually inverse, since the cabinets are directional), in pretty much ANY indoor space - and certainly in a space that holds 300 people, the actual drop-off in level is much less than that predicted by the inverse square law - simply because so much of the energy going in other directions is reflected back into the measurement field. And remember that, for a number of reasons, high frequencies tend to be attenuated first, leaving (you guessed it) low frequencies to make up the preponderance of the energy that would be measure at FOH. And while I'm thinking about it, I also should have stated that the 95dB would be overall stage volume, not just bass. But be that as it may...

The PA not only re-inforces the signal, but distributes it.


Yes and no - low frequencies are much less directional than highs ( know that the theory states that lows are non-directional, but my experience in setting up 5.1 environments has shown me otherwise).



In personal experience, (THX and I have performed nearly 1000 shows together) we like lots of stage volume. And THX's SVT is thunderous. But in all but the smallest of rooms, there's no way I would not put bass in the PA.


I will readily admit that I have not done nearly 1000 shows with one band (and one sound system), but I have been playing professionally for about 35 years now. The largest audience I've ever worked in front of was about 26,000 (outdoor, a festival show somewhere near Detroit), and 15,000 (indoors, in Stuttgart, Germany). The last theater date I did was somewhere in Pennsylvania a few weeks back (can't remember the town, but we flew into Baltimore), for about 1000 people; it was a pop vocal kinda gig without a drummer, and the sound company didn't put ANY bass into FOH or monitors. And I wasn't playing that loud. But it was certainly audible at the back of the theater.

But I digress - I started this line of questioning because you stated "the bass runs direct, making the amp kinda irrelevant to the FOH mix. (And I have one of those amps you spoke of that can loosen bowels) ". But I'm straying from the subject, which was what the bass player in a trio should play when the guitarist takes a solo. I think the original poster should isten to Billy Cox with Hendrix, Michael Anthony with Van Halen, or Dusty Hill on the early ZZ Top records. Or Deep Purple's records, or Eric Johnson's records. He'll find out that it's OK to just play bass.

[GOSG]

Originally posted by Dave Martin Originally posted by squealie But I digress - I started this line of questioning because you stated "the bass runs direct, making the amp kinda irrelevant to the FOH mix. (And I have one of those amps you spoke of that can loosen bowels) ". But I'm straying from the subject, which was what the bass player in a trio should play when the guitarist takes a solo. I think the original poster should isten to Billy Cox with Hendrix, Michael Anthony with Van Halen, or Dusty Hill on the early ZZ Top records. Or Deep Purple's records, or Eric Johnson's records. He'll find out that it's OK to just play bass. +1 Bravo Dave...thanks for getting the thread back on track and GREAT taste in bassists. Based on those suggestions IMO you would enjoy THX1138's playing. (He plays bass in band w/Squealie). I always manage to shift my schedule so that I can work their shows...they make my job a pleasure...they listen to my suggestions and have even allowed me to even stick my nose into their recording process...not to forget mentioning the fact that they do their best compensate my efforts with both "sweat" and cash! I understand both yours and Squealie's points...IMO the bass amp does add to the room sound...(i.e. If you can hear it on stage, you will be able to hear it in the room...therefore you cannot "subtract" the amp's sound from the final FOH sound.) IMO be it a small venue or a outdoor festival I would prefer to let the Sound system do the "heavy lifting" of distributing the sound evenly throughout the venue....Even with a "uber-big scarry rig" IMO I doubt that the bass guitar tone will be consistant in all areas of the venue. That is where a good quality sound system is important...if it is of sufficent size and has been set-up to provide smooth coverage of the venue, then anything that is going through the system will be distributed evenly throughout the venue. (Provided that the sound person has a clue! LOL!) To be able to accomplish this goal I prefer to have Everything patched into the system...does that mean that everything is always at the same level...No. It is my job as the sound person to constantly evaluate the mix of sound coming from the stage and adjust accordingly. The overall SPL will be based on the loudest instrument on stage and that gives the sound person two choices: 1. All other componants of the mix rise in SPL. 2. Loudest instrument goes down. I don't think I have to explain all the factors that go into deciding which choice is correct... I agree with the basic idea that lower freq. the less directional the "sound" is percieved. But a bass guitar is not producing a single "pure sine-wave", each note is going to be comprised of many harmonic overtones and this is what gives each instrument/amp combo it's own unique sound. Which is why most engineers prefer both a DI and microphone. Each has it's own limitations and perks. DI-Pure tone of the instrument without a min. of coloration or microphone leakage becoming a factor. (Provided it is a good quality DI!) Good "signal to noise ratio" factor...(unless the bassist is a frustrated tap-dancer with a pedal-board fetish!) Gack! Microphone-Adds Harmonic of amp/speaker relationship, however you face the limitations of microphone quality and placement. (So many musicians don't understand the difference between what they "hear" when they stand in front of their amp vs. what the microphone "hears" when a speaker or other sound source is "close mic'ed".) i.e wavelength...etc... IMO choosing between either or both is subjective to each situation, as is most everthing in "Live Sound". Well I'll stop my ramble...so much for being back on-topic. LOL!

[squealie]

Originally posted by Dave Martin Yes and no - low frequencies are much less directional than highs ( know that the theory states that lows are non-directional, but my experience in setting up 5.1 environments has shown me otherwise).

 

 

Well, I'm still refering to the transient 'peak'. The attack. Which has more of the characteristics of higher frequencies. Much more directional, and very easy to lose at distance, or smear through reflections or multi-path.

 

I understand your point though. Of course the stage volume dictates what can/can't happen out front, and all situations are different.

[Jamieh]

OK, this thread has gone a bit off topic now and I haven't read right through so apologies if I double up what other guys have said... but, back to the 3 piece soloing thing

1: Your drummer, MUST go on to the ride cymbal instead of hi-hat

2: Play double stops and partial chords rather than single note solos... except for fast runs, which fill sound OK

3: Your bass player should play power chords rather than single notes... and SIMPLE lines, none of this complicated over technical fancy bass {censored}, there is not space for it in a 3 piece!

4: Don't let solos go on too long

5: Think about using a delay for solos... ie The Edge