Members Guitar Centaur Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 I'm in a 3 piece group, and the bass player was talking about possibly adding an octave pedal or other unit of some sort that he could stomp on during me solos, to make it sound like bass AND guitar, to sort of fill the space left by me not playing the rhythm anymore. How do you gigging 3 piece units handle this? Any and all ideas welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBJ Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 mids simple as that. I bought a catalin bread boost to beef up solos but like it so much it's a sleeper so going from rythmn to lead has no volume change or anything but I still cut through and sound great because I have my guitar EQ'd to sit in the mix right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Inazone Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 What style of music are you playing? The octave idea might work. If you guys are playing rock or metal and want a distorted guitar sound along with the bass, there are several octave pedals with fuzz or distortion modes. Otherwise, run an A/B box with an overdrive/distortion pedal on one side. If you EQ it right, it can sound good even without an octave effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Bought a killer subwoofer. The bass and the kick are much fuller. I also put a Joe Meek VC6Q on the bass, using an EQ and adding a bit of optical compression. Mic all the drums, and get a good sound from them. We're very happy with the overall sound, even when the guitar drops out 100% it sounds nice and adds dynamics. (And we're not too loud either.) Add some effects on the guitar as well, a nice echo & verb help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 60hurts Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Listen to some live Cream. How did they do it?They played their asses off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 I had to adapt my playing style a bit to playing in a 3 piece, although I have it somewhat easier than some because I play rhythm with a lot of passing notes and leads with a lot of double stops and such... so there's not such a huge jump between rhythm and lead. That helps. It's also good to have a delay unit to fill out the sound. I have an Echoplex that I use a lot, and there are a lot of digital delay units that allow long delays and you might even try looping with them, if you get one of the units that does that (and depending on your style of course). Having a great rhythm section helps too. Our drummer does a lot to fill in by doing things like beating the crap out of a washy ride cymbal during solos. Our bass player gets a lot of bottom end and really does a great job of providing a solid bedrock so I don't feel like I'm jumping off a cliff when I start a solo. I think it boils down to everyone being aware of what the situation is and adapting. I guess we've made it work because one of the more frequent comments we get is that it sounds like 5 people and not 3... LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meatball Fulton Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 As a bassist I don't understand this idea of adding effects at all. Listening to classic rock trios like Cream, Hendrix, Who, SRV, Trower, Mountain, etc. I don't hear the bassist doing anything special to support the solos other than just, um, SUPPORTING. Big fat notes, maybe some fills when there are spaces for them. If the issue is trying to recreate impossible arrangements with overdubbed guitars up the wazoo grinding out riffs behind the solos, then work up a different arrangement. In general, adding a stomp box is seldom the solution to ANY problem. Using your ears and playing something musically appropriate works way better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theAntihero Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 If you play in a 3 piece that plays heavier music i recommend these things: 1. When you solo make sure you really boost it 2. You must have really full lead sound, no 80s hairmetal screech here 3. Get your bass player to buy an eq with a boost and have him step on it when your soloing. 4. Tell your drummer to do more stuff to support you without stomping on your solo. The octave/fuzz thing is an interesting idea, but i dont think you need it. Im kinda lucky my bass player really likes Jack Bruce's playing and kinda falls into doing rhythm bass, and when i solo he starts rumbling and shaking the stage. My drummer has played many many styles of music(from orchestras, and big bands, to jazz) and knows how to support the solo i am doing. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members corngoodness Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 kazoos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZED Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 If everyone plays well there won't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rim Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Our bass player has tried doing the octave pedal thing, but it just never sounded right and didn't really fill the sound enough. Maybe his octave pedal isn't good, but if you think about it, it's like having a second bass player playing the exact same thing an octave higher than the first bass player. I don't see how that would fill up the sound enough to compensate for chords played by a rhythm guitarist. Having said that, I do play in a 3 piece band and a lot has to do with how you play solos (and boosting enough during the solo). My tips: There's only been a few songs we've learned that we don't do any more since the sound drops out too much during the solo. These were the slow songs with the clean guitar sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GWS5987 Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Here's what our bass player did a few years back.... He bought a keyboard and started learning his bass runs with his left had, especially the easier songs at first. He was also woodsheding with a few keyboardists for right hand work. Also, simple 1, 5 power cords were a snap. He doesn't pick up his bass much at all now. We are so freaking full for a 3 piece that it scares the hell out of me sometimes. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 A bassist I worked with back in my "rocker days" (early to mid-70s) ran his bass into a y-cord and then into two amps, one of them my spare Twin Reverb, the other a Kustom (tuck 'n' roll) monstrocity with (if I remember correctly) either 2 or 3 15's in the cab (it stood over 6" high w/o the head!)...the Twin's signal was "enhanced" by an octave doubler (raised the pitch one or two octaves or both, depending on how you had it set, which kept my JBLs from being destroyed!), a phaser, a really ratty fuzz of some sort and a wah-pedal...probably all ElectroHarmonix. The Kustom's signal was "enhanced" by a Electroharmonix "Hog Foot" which, in combination with that amp, mostly sounded like the bass pedals of a church organ...you could feel the "bottom" hit you in the gut! The advantage this bizarro set-up was that, by setting the bass amp beside the drummer, and the "spare" Twin far right, and my amp (usually my main Twin) far left, it really sounded like our trio was at least 4 pieces. The octave multiplier sounded like crap run into the 2nd channel of the Kustom...it just all became mud, so to get this sound, you had to use two amps! The disadvantage was the hernia trusses from hauling all this heavy-assed gear around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBJ Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 maybe it's because i've been up from the crack of dawn to score oasis tickets but i found that paragraph about all your bass dudes gear funny terry. got tickets btw :-) now the dilemma of wether to let my brother know i bought him a couple when he gets back from his holiday or sell them on ebay for daft money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duck King Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 How about wait for it wait some more not worrying about it and just playing. King's X doesn't seem to suffer from only having 3 members. Hell, almost all bands are really 3 piece anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members THX1138 Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by Meatball Fulton As a bassist I don't understand this idea of adding effects at all. Listening to classic rock trios like Cream, Hendrix, Who, SRV, Trower, Mountain, etc. I don't hear the bassist doing anything special to support the solos other than just, um, SUPPORTING. Big fat notes, maybe some fills when there are spaces for them. If the issue is trying to recreate impossible arrangements with overdubbed guitars up the wazoo grinding out riffs behind the solos, then work up a different arrangement. In general, adding a stomp box is seldom the solution to ANY problem. Using your ears and playing something musically appropriate works way better You sir, are my hero. I've never really understood the mindset either. If the guitarist is taking a lead, then the spotlight is kinda on the guitar during all that. Why introduce a buncha distracting noise that hasn't been neccessary previously in the tune? Just turn your efforts towards keeping the backbone and groove going. In fact, thats pretty good advice for the rest of the tune as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by Duck King King's X doesn't seem to suffer from only having 3 members. Hell, almost all bands are really 3 piece anyway. Yeah, this is true to a large extent... it's not like the Who, Led Zep, U2, REM, the Police and a whole host of other bands have had more than one guitar/bass/drums as instrumentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted September 3, 2005 Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2005 Like Lee says, you have to play a little different when you solo in a three piece. More double stops, chord fragments, etc., less single note sustained stuff. Meanwhile the drummer and bassist are overplaying underneath you to fill some of the space. Terry D. P.S. One thing I really hate in a band is when I'm keeping the beat on guitar. I should be able to stop playing at any time and there should be a solid, rhythmic foundation going on (if somewhat less interesting) without me. If that's not the case with your band, you're going to have trouble soloing three piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Body Bomb Posted September 4, 2005 Members Share Posted September 4, 2005 If your bassist has one of those hollow clicky tones, it just ain't gonna work. If your bassist has a fat tone that sounds big and huge no matter what register he/she is playing in, maybe try having her/him play the bassline an octave higher during the solo. If the bass player has a tube head like an Ampeg V4 that naturally overdrives a little, all the better, as when the bass player moves into a higher register, the amp will distort just a little bit more. Having the bassist move up an octave can provide a sense of urgency that can somewhat compensate for the missing rhythm guitar. Then like others have said, don't rely on sustained single notes, go crazy. Also, I don't know if you're doing originals or covers, but it's way easier to pull this off if the rhythm parts aren't exclusively on the low E and A strings. If the rhythm parts utilize the middle register a bit more, it won't be that big of a stretch when you start taking your leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted September 4, 2005 Members Share Posted September 4, 2005 What we do in my current trio, Too Hot For Snakes, is keep the accompaniment fairly simple during the vocal parts...I'm generally strumming, fingerpicking or playing very simple melodic lines between the words, Wendy is keeping the bass parts to a simple "root-5th" or simple pattern thing, and Katie is just doing basic rhythms on her percussion...when it comes time for a lead break, then if I'm doing the lead, Wendy will throw in runs connecting the chord "centers", double-time it and/or play a bass harmony to my lead...whatever it appropo to that particular tune...if Wendy's doing the lead on her bass, I'll sketch out the chords (and substitutions) in a simple, rhythmic way that supports whatever she's doing w/o actually getting in her way...in either case, Katie will accentuate whatever's happening with paradiddles and other percussive "cool rhythmic tricks". The key to pulling all this off is really pretty simple, though...listen and add ONLY what will enhance the song...and that just comes from playing together for a while. And Body Bomb is right about filling in the sonic space with a round, fat tone...thin, twangy, "clicky" bass really only works when there's more instruments adding to the overall tonal palette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Body Bomb Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 Nirvana gets trashed a lot on Harmony Central a lot, but I was listening to "Bleach" last night, and on that record they did a great job working around this same problem. If you listen closely, there are only guitar overdubs on a handful of songs, and unless you're listening for it, you hardly miss the rhythm guitar at all. Like I said before, it helped that Krist had the biggest, hugest bass sound of all time on that album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members colliewobble Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 My 3-piece band has a really strong rhythm section, including me when I'm not playing a lead. When I solo, the drummer will usually go to the ride cymbal to fatten things up a bit. And the bass player will play a bit busier, or a bit bigger, depending on the song. I tend to keep my leads short, rarely going "twice through," if you know what I mean. And I'll play two or three short leads in a song instead of one long one. I have indeed adapted my playing style somewhat. Double stops, combined rhythm/lead licks, chord fragments. I try not to "hold back" as much as I normally would. Sometimes my "lead" is really just a hot rhythm part. And dynamics are really key to what we do. We'll let the bottom drop out of a song, then kick it back in hard...drawing the listener in, then hitting them with a sonic sledgehammer. We've arranged several songs that incorporate dramatic elements of near silence...some while I play a lead. This works very well for us, and the listener's ear is hearing the dynamics of THE BAND, not just a lead player going on and on. In fact, yesterday I heard a 4-piece blues band with two guitars, both lead players. After 3 songs, it became pretty boring because whoever played a lead went on far too long...3 and sometimes 4 times through. Potentially a good band, but not much in the way of dynamics or interesting arrangements. I listened for about an hour and was not really impressed that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dughaze Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 Great thread. My band just shrunk down to just me on guitar and vocals and I think we can sound good by being more dynamic and getting tighter like you all are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Martin Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 I go along with the crowd who says to not worry about it. When I first saw ZZ Top (in 1971 or 72) Dusty Hill would play some double stops from time to time during the solos, but mostly he just hammered 1/8 notes. Didn't seem to hurt the groove... I'd suggest that you get over it and just play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duck King Posted September 5, 2005 Members Share Posted September 5, 2005 Originally posted by Lee Flier Yeah, this is true to a large extent... it's not like the Who, Led Zep, U2, REM, the Police and a whole host of other bands have had more than one guitar/bass/drums as instrumentation. God forbid someone leave some space and breath in a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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