Singer issues

[Locke]

Okay, our previous singer had to quit the band a few months ago because she had to move away due to her studies. We started looking for a new singer and one really good one came to try (and a few not-so-good ones) but she had to travel two hours in one direction just to get to band practice and she had a small kid at home so we decided it best for all parties that she won't join the band (her decision mostly and I agree with her). So, the next singer isn't as good as this one but she sings pretty well (went a bit off-key here and there but nothing practice wouldn't fix) and is great on stage (most singers tend to be pretty static but running around and moving to the music seems to come naturally to her).

However, there are a couple of things that bug me somewhat: her sense of rythm isn't that good whereas I feel that in order for the music to happen the rythm must be good and steady (even in the odd time signatures). Another thing is that she seems to have a hard time singing parts. I do back up vox on a couple of tunes and sometimes she gets a bit lost with the melody during my parts (which are so simple that I'm certain it's not my mistake [besides the previous singers had no difficulties with the same parts with me singing back up]). Likewise she needs to stretch her vocal range a bit to reach the highest notes (which are not even that high; even I can reach them).

 

So, what I'm wondering here is this: should I keep looking or stick with her and see what happens? As a person she's nice and seems to fit the band really well. That being said, I'm a little at loss at what to do. I've had a couple of other singers ask if the spot is still vacant. What should I do? Wait a little more and see what happens or should I have others come in and try? Somehow the last option seems a little awkward at this point, I don't know why. The reason I'm not too keen to just wait, however, is that in a month or so we'll record a demo and by then I want to have a steady singer in the band with atleast a couple of gigs with us under her belt. So, any thoughts on this?

[NoSurrender]

For me (I'm lead vox and also guitarist) and my bassist who sang backup vox, we just had separate rehearsal - just him and me, both playing on acoustic 6-stings and singing our parts to get a feel of what works best.

 

It's much easier to adjust when the music is stripped down.

 

So, maybe spend some extra time with her like that working on details?

 

Kirill

[progguitar]

If she's able to hit the notes most of the time, then you probably need to start breaking songs down into parts and practicing them with her, over and over.

 

Do not underestimate the value of chemistry in a band, but don't overestimate it either.

 

Personally, I'll never play in a band with a girl singer again. Way too many problems. Jealous spouse/boyfriend, someone in the band wants to bang her, they generally don't help too much with setting up and tearing down. Gotta have their own hotel room.

 

On the flip side, a hot singer, and by hot I mean can sing and looks great, can help bring in the crowds to the bar.

[Scheming Demon]

Ask yourself what the ultimate goal of the band is.

 

If it's just to have fun and play local bars than you can accomplish that with an OK singer.

 

If your goals are higher than your standards have to be higher.

 

Either way, I would try some intense rehearsal focusing on the difficulties and hopefully she has the dedication to want to improve.

 

If she comes through great, if she's not able to then you have to consider replacement.

 

I understand the difficulty of auditioning people behind someone's back, it is an uncomfortable place. I would ask the potentials for a tape first or have them meet you alone for you to discover any potential of bringing them to the band.

[Locke]

Thanks for the suggestions. Our drummer is out of town for a couple of weeks so now I have the perfect opportunity to go through the songs with her without the whole band and see if the problems are "curable." If not, I'll have to look for a replacement.

 

Someties I wonder why I bother with a band since it's so much trouble but when I get onstage or the music starts working in the practice room then I remember. Still, takes a certain level of masochism to find joy in all this.

[SpacedCowboy]

Originally posted by Locke Someties I wonder why I bother with a band since it's so much trouble but when I get onstage or the music starts working in the practice room then I remember. Still, takes a certain level of masochism to find joy in all this.

 

 

Word.

[cherri]

 

Personally, I'll never play in a band with a girl singer again. Way too many problems. Jealous spouse/boyfriend, someone in the band wants to bang her, they generally don't help too much with setting up and tearing down. Gotta have their own hotel room.

 

 

Sounds like the woman wasn't causing problems, but that her SO and/or bandmates were causing problems.

 

Just for the record, I don't insist on my own hotel room, but then, my husband is the bass player. Sometimes all four of us share a room. I've slept in the truck, I've changed clothes in the back of the car, in our trailer, in a tent, whatever. I'm one of the guys.

 

And yes, I carry gear. We all have fairly clearly defined jobs, and we have load in, set up, and tear down to a quick efficient routine. I carry in the small stuff (mic stands, instruments), and then once the guys are into the big stuff, I meet with the venue staff, get the guys a soda, and go over the set list with the sound tech, hang the banner. While the guys are getting the PA up and running, I run the mics and mic cords, mic the amps, and set up my guitars and my husbands' bass.

 

So while I'm not allowed to lift anything heavy (it's a girl thing), I never play the diva and sit there looking at my fingernails while the guys are working.

 

Sorry this is so long, but I get darn tired of reading posts about how "bad" it is having a girl in the band. Gender is a non-issue, as far as I am concerned. Individual personality is the issue.

 

Locke - individual vocal rehearsel is a good idea. Sit down with a guitar or keyboard, or even acapella if she has the pitch ability, and go over the parts again and again. It sounds like she has the potential, but just needs coaching and practice. Has she taken vocal lessons?

[caveman]

Originally posted by Locke Thanks for the suggestions. Our drummer is out of town for a couple of weeks so now I have the perfect opportunity to go through the songs with her without the whole band and see if the problems are "curable." If not, I'll have to look for a replacement. Someties I wonder why I bother with a band since it's so much trouble but when I get onstage or the music starts working in the practice room then I remember. Still, takes a certain level of masochism to find joy in all this.

 

Anything worth doing is worth the extra effort. The rush you get when all comes together on the stage makes the crap you have to put up with worth it.

[Locke]

Caveman, very true.

 

Originally posted by cherri Locke - individual vocal rehearsel is a good idea. Sit down with a guitar or keyboard, or even acapella if she has the pitch ability, and go over the parts again and again. It sounds like she has the potential, but just needs coaching and practice. Has she taken vocal lessons?

 

Today I actually did that with her; just my guitar and vocals, no band. She had practiced her parts and I was actually positively impressed. Seems like things'll turn out very well after all.

As for lessons, yeah, she has taken some in the past but isn't taking any right now.

 

The reason I don't get a guy singer is because when I wrote the songs I wrote them for a female singer. Some of them just wouldn't work with some hairy dude. Besides, it's good to have atleast one pretty band member.

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by Locke Okay, our previous singer had to quit the band a few months ago because she had to move away due to her studies. We started looking for a new singer and one really good one came to try (and a few not-so-good ones) but she had to travel two hours in one direction just to get to band practice and she had a small kid at home so we decided it best for all parties that she won't join the band (her decision mostly and I agree with her). So, the next singer isn't as good as this one but she sings pretty well (went a bit off-key here and there but nothing practice wouldn't fix) and is great on stage (most singers tend to be pretty static but running around and moving to the music seems to come naturally to her). However, there are a couple of things that bug me somewhat: her sense of rythm isn't that good whereas I feel that in order for the music to happen the rythm must be good and steady (even in the odd time signatures). Another thing is that she seems to have a hard time singing parts. I do back up vox on a couple of tunes and sometimes she gets a bit lost with the melody during my parts (which are so simple that I'm certain it's not my mistake [besides the previous singers had no difficulties with the same parts with me singing back up]). Likewise she needs to stretch her vocal range a bit to reach the highest notes (which are not even that high; even I can reach them). So, what I'm wondering here is this: should I keep looking or stick with her and see what happens? As a person she's nice and seems to fit the band really well. That being said, I'm a little at loss at what to do. I've had a couple of other singers ask if the spot is still vacant. What should I do? Wait a little more and see what happens or should I have others come in and try? Somehow the last option seems a little awkward at this point, I don't know why. The reason I'm not too keen to just wait, however, is that in a month or so we'll record a demo and by then I want to have a steady singer in the band with atleast a couple of gigs with us under her belt. So, any thoughts on this?

 

 

Are the backing vocals harmonies or are you just singing the same thing? I know my singer finds it distracting if someone sings teh same thing as him in a backing vocal - it's hard enough to hear what the hell you're singing with a whole band going off behind you without someone singing the same words, with the same melody in the same key.

 

If she sounds good, fits with the band and has good stage presence I'd give her the chance to get to know the songs well before making any decisions.

[conquerorworm]

 

Originally posted by cherri Sorry this is so long, but I get darn tired of reading posts about how "bad" it is having a girl in the band. Gender is a non-issue, as far as I am concerned. Individual personality is the issue.

 

 

I respectfully disagree, somewhat. While it's true that individual personality is the issue when you break it down, "that" personality is much more prevalent with female band members than male. I think saying that it's completely a "non-issue" is breaking it down too much. Having said that, I've performed with ladies that help out carrying anything they can, and I've performed with men who sit around and wait for everyone else to finish loading in/out.

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by NoSurrender For me (I'm lead vox and also guitarist) and my bassist who sang backup vox, we just had separate rehearsal - just him and me, both playing on acoustic 6-stings and singing our parts to get a feel of what works best. It's much easier to adjust when the music is stripped down. So, maybe spend some extra time with her like that working on details? Kirill

 

 

Yeh - me and my bassist are currently covering all the singing duties in the absense of a 'real' singer (neither of us is a particularly brilliant singer or have any illusions about that). We have got to a stanard where we can perform harmonies and sing our songs well enough for the gigs we do though and sitting down *without* the band has helped a great deal - it can be damn hard to sing unfamiliar material when you can't hear yourself very well. Once you're familiar with the material it becomes alot easier.

[progguitar]

 

Originally posted by cherri Sounds like the woman wasn't causing problems, but that her SO and/or bandmates were causing problems. Just for the record, I don't insist on my own hotel room, but then, my husband is the bass player. Sometimes all four of us share a room. I've slept in the truck, I've changed clothes in the back of the car, in our trailer, in a tent, whatever. I'm one of the guys. And yes, I carry gear. We all have fairly clearly defined jobs, and we have load in, set up, and tear down to a quick efficient routine. I carry in the small stuff (mic stands, instruments), and then once the guys are into the big stuff, I meet with the venue staff, get the guys a soda, and go over the set list with the sound tech, hang the banner. While the guys are getting the PA up and running, I run the mics and mic cords, mic the amps, and set up my guitars and my husbands' bass. So while I'm not allowed to lift anything heavy (it's a girl thing), I never play the diva and sit there looking at my fingernails while the guys are working. Sorry this is so long, but I get darn tired of reading posts about how "bad" it is having a girl in the band. Gender is a non-issue, as far as I am concerned. Individual personality is the issue. Locke - individual vocal rehearsel is a good idea. Sit down with a guitar or keyboard, or even acapella if she has the pitch ability, and go over the parts again and again. It sounds like she has the potential, but just needs coaching and practice. Has she taken vocal lessons?

 

 

 

Sorry Cherrie, but you fit into two of my requirements, which by the way, have come from long experience. Written on a forum, it may sound biased or unfair, and maybe it is, but it is my bias and I choose to exercise it at my discretion, not yours.

 

The other, package deals in a band. No way. Ever again. There is too much influence on each other to work for me. It will be a cold day in hell before I'm in a husband/wife band situation again. Too much power resides in the pair, and that's what it is a pair. A single viewpoint with two votes. Again, it's from experience. Unfortuanately, at my age (45), I'm running into it more now than before. It seems everyone wants their family in the band , or running sound or booking shows.

 

And the fact remains, that the problem exists only because she is present. If she isn't there, there is no problem, so, fair or not, I won't have females in the band.

[Scheming Demon]

I too have had some past experience with females in the band. All of them without exception was a negative experience. Some friends of mine were also in similar band situations and their experience was the same as mine.

 

Very stereotypical as already described and none of them ever lifted a finger to do anything. I have also been in bands where guys never lift a finger (usually the singer).

 

While I would never say never, I don't expect that I would join a band with a female in it.

[cherri]

Proguitar:

 

Regarding your opinion on a husband/wife team in the band .... I actually agree with you. Paul and I own the PAs, I book the shows, he manages the stage and equipment. The other fellas in the band like it, because it lessens their load. All four of us have a voice in the band's direction and musical selection, but ultimately, I have the swing vote, and Paul almost always agrees with me. However, I listen to and respect all of my band mates, because they're my mates.

 

We lost a guitar player once because his wife couldn't handle him working with a female, even a married one. It wasn't so much because I'm female, but because he had a history of cheating on her.

 

In my own experience, when I first started this out and I was 'just the singer', I didn't know all the small jobs that have to be accomplished at load in and set up. I'd show up, the PA would already be up and running. It wasn't until Paul started learning how it all works that I started paying closer attention to all the tasks.

 

Those of you with singers who lark about during set up, grab them and put them to work. Teach them to run cords and put together the mics and stands, teach them about the sound system, teach them to listen for problems and how to fix them. It's not always arrogance, sometimes it's ignorance, and as often as not, a vocalist would probably rather be helping than sitting, but is unsure what to do. They don't have as much 'gear' experience as the instrumentalists do. If they refuse, then you've got a diva on your hands, and that's too bad. No one has a voice so fantastic that it excuses them from pitching in and helping out.

 

Boils down to you have to be comfortable with your band mates, and if girls make you uncomfortable, you can either change your attitude or not work with girls. Either solution is viable.

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by cherri It's not always arrogance, sometimes it's ignorance, and as often as not, a vocalist would probably rather be helping than sitting, but is unsure what to do.

 

 

I'm sure that's true - I'm a guitarist, I set up my own rig - but I'm pretty quick at it... I don't go over and try and help set up the PA or help setup anyone elses rig when I'm done because I haven't got a clue what needs doing and would no doubt get under people's feet.

[cherri]

A couple of singer jokes courtesy my drummer last night:

 

Q - How can you tell when you're dating a singer?

 

A - When you get back to her place, she can't find her key.

 

A - When you open the door for her, she asks, "Is this where I come in?"

[progguitar]

Cherrie,

 

Glad to hear back from you. That's your situation, and I agree with it, for the most part. If you're doing the majority of the work to make the enterprise viable, then you should have more say. It's only fair. And you should get paid more.

 

And that's why I almost always form bands instead of joining them. For better or worse, I alway aspire to the leadership position in the band. It's the only way to move the music down the path I want it to go. Democracies don't really work that well. Benevolent dictatorships seem to be the better path.

 

Many, not all, of the females, mainly singers, have latent aspirations of stardom and it reflects in their attitudes. Showing up right before a gig after the work is done, leaving right after the gig before load out. Actually had a female singer leave the band because I wouldn't pay her until the loadout was finished. If she wasn't going to help, she was damn well going to watch. The same really, goes for anyone in the band. Had a drummer who drank up on a tab, his share went to the bar. Lost him too.

[Locke]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Are the backing vocals harmonies or are you just singing the same thing? I know my singer finds it distracting if someone sings teh same thing as him in a backing vocal - it's hard enough to hear what the hell you're singing with a whole band going off behind you without someone singing the same words, with the same melody in the same key. If she sounds good, fits with the band and has good stage presence I'd give her the chance to get to know the songs well before making any decisions.

 

The backing vocals are the same parts in another key so that they form a melody of thirds. On two other songs it's likewise the same words but a different melody.

Anyway, there was no problem anymore the last time since she had practiced her parts.

[madjack]

Just my 2 cents on the female issue;

I've been gigging for 36+ years. I've worked in that time with 10 different females, some singers, some instrumentalists. Of the strictly singers, about half were troupers and pitched in doing what they could. The same half appeared fairly comfortable being "one of the guys". I never had any problems with inter-band jealousies. (Just lucky I guess; only one dated a band member, and they ended up married.) The other half of the singers were wanna-be divas and didn't last too long. Most of the women I've worked with were instrumentalists as well as singers, and in all cases they were troupers and no problems were experienced, except one; a keyboardist/singer who admittedly had pms difficulties which eventually led to her leaving the band. (Yes, I know pms is a catch-all for any gender problems, but in her case it was the actual problem.)

The last woman with which I worked was a keyboardist who was married to the drummer. While not the best musician I've worked with by any means, she was the most professional trouper and stage performer I've ever worked with. She always did her best to put on a great show, work the audience, help with set-up/tear-down any way she could, and she was so much one of the guys that she was my 'best man' at my wedding.

All of that professionalism with the fact that she had terrible back pain which had her on class 1 narcotics for pain control.

This is a long-winded way of saying that I have no problem working with women; I only have problems working with prima donnas, be they female or male.

 

Also, vocal only practices are an excellent idea whether there are harmony problems or not. All singers in the band should on a regular basis sit down together with just an acoustic and practice tightening up harmonies.