What would you do

[Knottyhed]

I'm currently in a band started by a friend of mine - he started off as singer, but couldn't sing (tone-deaf). As we've done original material me and the bassist seem to have emerged as the song-writers in the band and we moved him to keyboards - although he's not too hot on those either. My problem is that I'm starting to find it frustrating as his keys are either neither "here nor there" or actively bringing the song down. It's also the case that he's not picking up new songs at anything like the rate myself and the other guys in the band are - and this is making it hard to get new material done for gigs. All in all; at best he adds nothing to the sound and at worst he detracts from the sound by playing out of time or inappropriate keyboard parts.

 

I'm now in the frustrating situation where I'm in a band with really good musicians that really gel with each other and the guy who started the band is a "spare wheel". I don't feel like we can fire him because he's a really good friend, he started the band and is probably more in to it than any of us (i.e. he'd take it badly).

 

I know that myself, the bassist and the other guitar player think we sound better without him, but the drummer (for some reason) disagrees... (I suspect mainly he just doesn't want to confront him and if i'm honest nor do i).

 

What would you do? I currently see my options as:

 

1. Put up with it and hope things iron themselves out

2. Start a new band

3. Fire him and not only upset him, but also possibily cause issues with the drummer.

[GCDEF]

If you're serious about getting out there and you don't see any hope for him, you'll have to let him go. If you think he has keys potential, you could spend extra time with him helping him with his parts and spending extra time at rehearsal. Sound like you think you'd be better without him, so you have to do what you have to do. It isn't easy, but everyone will get over it.

 

Perhaps you could schedule a practice without him and let the drummer hear the improvement for himself. Or perhaps you'll find that you really do need him after all.

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF Perhaps you could schedule a practice without him and let the drummer hear the improvement for himself. Or perhaps you'll find that you really do need him after all.

 

 

That's probably not a bad idea. Although we're actually in the process of recording some tracks at the moment - it'd be a simple matter to cut the keys from the mix to see. Although it wont be representative his tendency to hit bum notes and play off-beat in live situations it'll probably demonstrate a point one way or the other.

[zookie]

You could try moving him to triangle next.

 

If he isn't adding anything to the mix then that's a problem. I have seen instances where a band is breaking in a new guy, so during gigs, they mixed him way down so no one could really hear him and let him get used to performing the material under pressure.

 

That was a well-established band, though. For a new band you risk only being as strong as your weakest member.

[cozmicslop]

Ouch!

 

I remember being that guy! I was the noobie in a band with guys who had been playing forever. Not only was it a matter of bass players being rare, the guitarist was my friend and teacher. I frosted more notes than Duncan Hines.

 

He used to take me to jam nights and sometimes just he and I would go out and play. The difference was, I knew I sucked and didn't have to be told. I was willing to put in the extra work with whomever was willing to work with me. That band existed in one form or another for years. We didn't play out all that often so guys were free to do other projects without me holding them back. I'll never forget the loyalty they had for me. To stick with me for years while I got my {censored} together.

 

Loyalty is a huge deal to me. It's hard to just throw people over after having had people be so generous to me.

 

That being said, today I think I'd have only so much patience in that situation. Especially if I thought someone was holding us back, but there would be conditions.

 

Do you know you need work and are you willing to put it in? If so, It's as easy as burying you in the mix till you catch up. If you suck and don't know it, or won't put in the extra work, I'm in the more painful position of splitting the best players off and working with you as a side project, again hoping you'll catch up.

 

It's a matter of how patient you are versus him being honest with himself.

 

Have you considered putting him on acoustic and having him sing backup?

[Jimi Ray Halen]

I went through almost the exact same thing.

One of my best friends started things rolling. Got me back into playing, really.

 

I found the drummer, frontman, and bassist.

 

We started getting tight and it became very obvious that he wasn't keeping up. I was the go-between. I heard it from the other guys. They didn't want to say anything to him because we were old friends.

 

But he knew it. He could see me progressing and he was standing still. But I was home practicing while he was - well, doing other stuff.

 

I think that he subconciously starting pissing everybody off. Because he did. He tried to assert himself as the "leader" and impose his will. Then he started getting wasted at gigs and doing goofy stuff on stage. Then he started arguing about gig money. Like it was worth arguing about. Yelling at people at practice, not showing up, not calling, etc.

 

I even went way out on a limb for him at a band meeting one night and took up for him. Bought him some time to start practicing again. I had to. But it didn't do any good.

 

He finally quit, which was a mixed blessing. Yeah, he was out of the group and we sounded better as a result, but I had to stop for awhile too or else risk looking like a real a'hole to our mutual friends. "You kicked your friend out?" People don't know what really goes on at rehearsal. And I wasn't about to tell them the truth.

 

So I didn't book any gigs for awhile and went down hard for 2 months. He called me back and asked back in. That was a hard phone conversation. There was no way the other guys would have gone along with that.

 

I thought that since he had quit and knew the other guys didn't want him back, when he asked me if we needed someone to play "rhythm" guitar (we had divided lead and rhythm before) that he had someone else in mind. So I asked "Who?" DUH!!!!! Boy did that come out wrong.

 

Anyway, we didn't speak for almost a year. We still don't see each other that much. He hasn't hardly picked up a guitar for about the last year and a half.

I still feel bad about it but in the end you are only responsible for yourself.

[Mr. Botch]

This has happened to me too, and I was the guy that needed to be eliminated. What that band did was, the bass player and drummer "quit", saying they wanted to try another new direction. The guitarist and singer and I started scheduling auditions for a new bassist and new drummer, didn't find a good drummer and had NO bass player respond. We decided to part.

 

Six months later the four of them were back together, I happened to see their poster in a club. I realized what had actually gone down, yeah it hurt but I understood. We're now on OK terms.

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by cozmicslop Ouch! I remember being that guy! I was the noobie in a band with guys who had been playing forever. Not only was it a matter of bass players being rare, the guitarist was my friend and teacher. I frosted more notes than Duncan Hines. He used to take me to jam nights and sometimes just he and I would go out and play. The difference was, I knew I sucked and didn't have to be told. I was willing to put in the extra work with whomever was willing to work with me. That band existed in one form or another for years. We didn't play out all that often so guys were free to do other projects without me holding them back. I'll never forget the loyalty they had for me. To stick with me for years while I got my {censored} together. Loyalty is a huge deal to me. It's hard to just throw people over after having had people be so generous to me. That being said, today I think I'd have only so much patience in that situation. Especially if I thought someone was holding us back, but there would be conditions. Do you know you need work and are you willing to put it in? If so, It's as easy as burying you in the mix till you catch up. If you suck and don't know it, or won't put in the extra work, I'm in the more painful position of splitting the best players off and working with you as a side project, again hoping you'll catch up. It's a matter of how patient you are versus him being honest with himself. Have you considered putting him on acoustic and having him sing backup?

 

 

Thanks, that's a really good post. Thing is that we're aiming to be gigging regularly, but we're having problems getting gig ready cos of the keys. It's really starting to strip the fun out of being in the band and we can't afford to stick by him whilst he catches up (which will, as you say, take years).

 

The idea of having a word and 'officially' turning him down in the mix isn't a bad one, but I still feel that he'd be a spare wheel and how long do we wait before he's expected to make a useful contribution?

 

I know that for the good of the band he has to go, I've just no idea how to do it and still retain him as a friend and not hurt his feelings too badly.

[daddymack]

well...you will need a sound man, right?

 

 

Seriously, I would sit him down and talk to him, man to man.

He's your friend.

 

Honesty is the basis of true friendship.

 

The idea of mixing the keys out of a tune, and playing it back for him both ways is good too, if he can be objective.

 

He has to have clue as to how bad he is compared to the rest of you.

Let him play tambourine on some songs, if he really feels he needs to contribute, assuming he can keep a beat...but get him out of the tonal mix!!

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by Mr. Botch This has happened to me too, and I was the guy that needed to be eliminated. What that band did was, the bass player and drummer "quit", saying they wanted to try another new direction. The guitarist and singer and I started scheduling auditions for a new bassist and new drummer, didn't find a good drummer and had NO bass player respond. We decided to part. Six months later the four of them were back together, I happened to see their poster in a club. I realized what had actually gone down, yeah it hurt but I understood. We're now on OK terms.

 

 

Funny you should say that, me and the bassist considered "splitting up" in much the same way. Outta interest, would you have rather the other guys just confronted the issue and fired you? How should those guys have handled it.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by daddymack well...you will need a sound man, right? Seriously, I would sit him down and talk to him, man to man. He's your friend. Honesty is the basis of true friendship. The idea of mixing the keys out of a tune, and playing it back for him both ways is good too, if he can be objective. He has to have clue as to how bad he is compared to the rest of you. Let him play tambourine on some songs, if he really feels he needs to contribute, assuming he can keep a beat...but get him out of the tonal mix!!

 

Yeh - the most "manful" way of handling it is to just sit him down and have a word. Explain that he's gotta go... anything else is just a bit under-hand. No matter wha way I do it, it's not nice and it's a knife in the back to him

[Sleepin' Deeper]

 

Originally posted by zookie I have seen instances where a band is breaking in a new guy, so during gigs, they mixed him way down so no one could really hear him and let him get used to performing the material under pressure.

 

 

If you do that, WITHOUT telling the band member who's mix is cut down, it's real {censored}ty. It's an insult ferrchrissakes. Do it, but make sure the person is aware of this!

[dogtownmax]

i was once that guy too, well sorta.

 

one of my first bands, that i was a cofounder of, got tired of me clamming notes at our shows. they would practice each song until every note was perfect. perfect. i was well more of the attitude that the song would roll along, and hitting the wrong notes or chords occasionally was no big deal if one scooted back into the tune without too much disturbance. yo, it can be a little sloppy, but its rock. as someone who sees alot of bands, the energy and vibe matter way more than note for note perfection. not that the two cant coexist, but they did a remarkable job of sucking the life out of their songs.

 

they also had a pretty clear vision of what they wanted to sound like, which was a very mellow version of R.E.M. while the music i was writing was pretty rock based, with lyrics about getting drunk, showing up to work on drugs, and rigging the microwave to work with the door open so ones head could fit in. they had songs about girls and the associated difficulties...

 

more importantly, i really really thougt that we had a sort of lennon/mccartney dynamic, with my songs adding some edge and grit, and their songs widening the appeal and increasing the dynamic range by softening the sound a bit.

 

they thought i just didnt fit in properly, and all "quit" the band, but reformed a new band togther.

 

i was pretty bummed, took it rather personally, and was dissapointed that they didnt really see what i was bringing to the project, mistaking it for mere sloppyness.

 

a pretty serious difference of opinion, as it were.

 

they sucked without me and sounded about as exciting as cold oatmeal. they never made mistakes, but it was boring. they also never played another show despite being together as a band for another 2 years. they did one livingroom show where they bored a party into submission.

 

my next band, which shared a rehearsal space with them had energy, and despite the occasional mistake, was better musically for not focussing on perfection over vibe. we had a modicum of success locally, some radio airplay, and played all over town. we didnt even rock harder than they did (ok, we did), but we did have much better balance and dynamics, and we focussed on playing the music, not doing a perfect reproduction of our demo tape.

 

this may have nothing to do with your situation, it just reminded me of being the person who got tossed out of a band i helped create.

 

 

-dogtown max

[daddymack]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Yeh - the most "manful" way of handling it is to just sit him down and have a word. Explain that he's gotta go... anything else is just a bit under-hand. No matter wha way I do it, it's not nice and it's a knife in the back to him

 

And that is one of the bad parts of band life...I have had to be the 'bastard' enough times to know. But it is better to be upfront, even if it is immediately more painful.

 

Oddly enough, I have never been asked to leave a band, but I have left due to differences...artistic, personal and otherwise. It is never easy, from either side of the situation

 

Also, I would leave the door open, so that if he improves/takes lessons/practices his ass off, etc, you would be glad to work him back in. It's not like you don't like the guy, he just isn't on the same technical level with the rest of you at the moment.

[Knottyhed]

So - a question for the guys that have been dropped as well as guys who've had to do the dropping...

 

What's the best way to do it? Take him aside one to one, face up to him as a band and explain why we don't want him in the band anymore, tell him at rehearsal? at the pub? etc.

[FlogRock]

 

Originally posted by Knottyhed So - a question for the guys that have been dropped as well as guys who've had to do the dropping... What's the best way to do it? Take him aside one to one, face up to him as a band and explain why we don't want him in the band anymore, tell him at rehearsal? at the pub? etc.

When or how you should have this conversation depends a bit on the personalities involved: some people can't give criticism without being rude, some people get very defensive and stop listening when receiving criticism, especially when confronted by a large group etc. But my guess is, if he's a good friend of yours and not so much of the other guys, you should have this conversation one on one. Before that, talk to the rest of the band to make sure you all agree on what you will say.

 

And the only way to solve this problem without seeming like a 'backstabber', is if you first tell him exactly what your problems are with him, and give him an opportunity to improve on it. Listen to a recorded rehearsal or gig with him, and point out where he is hitting too many bum notes, where his parts are not tight and where he is using stupid sounds (or whatever your problems may be). Then make clear that if he's not going to improve in those areas within a given time (a month?), the rest of the band needs to go on without him. Make very clear what you expect him to change and in what time period. Maybe this will be an awkward month, maybe you know in advance he will not practice hard enough to improve, or maybe he will still take it personal, but I think this is the only way to do it in an honest way... Especially if he's your friend and founder of the band, he deserves to know what you all think of his playing before you decide to drop him (which may otherwise come completely unexpected).

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by FlogRock When or how you should have this conversation depends a bit on the personalities involved: some people can't give criticism without being rude, some people get very defensive and stop listening when receiving criticism, especially when confronted by a large group etc. But my guess is, if he's a good friend of yours and not so much of the other guys, you should have this conversation one on one. Before that, talk to the rest of the band to make sure you all agree on what you will say. And the only way to solve this problem without seeming like a 'backstabber', is if you first tell him exactly what your problems are with him, and give him an opportunity to improve on it. Listen to a recorded rehearsal or gig with him, and point out where he is hitting too many bum notes, where his parts are not tight and where he is using stupid sounds (or whatever your problems may be). Then make clear that if he's not going to improve in those areas within a given time (a month?), the rest of the band needs to go on without him. Make very clear what you expect him to change and in what time period. Maybe this will be an awkward month, maybe you know in advance he will not practice hard enough to improve, or maybe he will still take it personal, but I think this is the only way to do it in an honest way... Especially if he's your friend and founder of the band, he deserves to know what you all think of his playing before you decide to drop him (which may otherwise come completely unexpected).

 

 

Thanks; that's actually really sound advice.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

How do you sit down with a friend and tell him that basically his playing sucks and the rest of the band wants him out? And then tell him that if he practices more you'll let him stay in the band that he started?

It ain't easy. That's a cold {censored}in' shot. Honesty may be the best policy in theory but telling a friend that he isn't good enough could destroy his psyche.

 

Most likely he already knows anyway since he has ears. Good luck.

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen How do you sit down with a friend and tell him that basically his playing sucks and the rest of the band wants him out? And then tell him that if he practices more you'll let him stay in the band that he started? It ain't easy. That's a cold {censored}in' shot. Honesty may be the best policy in theory but telling a friend that he isn't good enough could destroy his psyche. Most likely he already knows anyway since he has ears. Good luck.

 

LOL - thanks for Jimi, that's really pscyched me up for it!!

 

Yeh you're right though - it's a "cold shot". The only other option is to just split and all go our separate ways, we can't just split up and reform without him a few weeks later (as that's both under-hand and a "cold shot" and will probably leave him feeling more bitter).

 

I don't think he knows he sucks, or if he does - he doesn't know how badly, or how much it's starting to bother us.

 

Basically it's at the point now where both me and the bassist have decided we'd rather leave the band than continue as is. I'm either going to find the balls to crap on one of my mates for the good of the band, or I'm going to leave the band - closely followed by the bassist. Either way my mate ends up without a band anymore.

[FlogRock]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen How do you sit down with a friend and tell him that basically his playing sucks and the rest of the band wants him out? And then tell him that if he practices more you'll let him stay in the band that he started? It ain't easy. That's a cold {censored}in' shot. Honesty may be the best policy in theory but telling a friend that he isn't good enough could destroy his psyche.

Well either you put up with the annoyance of having a bad musician in the band, or not. And then you have to tell him sooner or later.

 

That's going to be hard no matter what, but you can be open and honest about it or you can decide everything behind his back...

 

Or you can find some excuse to not hurt his feelings, like:

 

"We all want to play Polish Polkas from now on. What, you don't like that? Then we'll have to start a new band without you. That's too bad, because you're a great keyboard player."

 

But if you then continue to play the same music, it's very likely he will find out about it. I would hate it if I found out I was betrayed like this... I rather hear good constructive criticism about my playing.

 

Or if you don't want to go on like this, but also not hurt his feelings, you can quit the band yourself. But that's a shame if you work really well with the other musicians.

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Most likely he already knows anyway since he has ears. Good luck.

You'd be surprised how blind some people can be to their own faults.

 

And if he already knows, then telling him that he sucks won't be terrible news. Telling him you don't want to go on without him probably is...

 

One other thing: if he founded the band and you want to go on without him, it may be a good idea to choose another name and not play any songs he co-wrote...

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by FlogRock You'd be surprised how blind some people can be to their own faults. And if he already knows, then telling him that he sucks won't be terrible news. Telling him you don't want to go on without him probably is... One other thing: if he founded the band and you want to go on without him, it may be a good idea to choose another name and not play any songs he co-wrote...

 

Yeh - I think we'd choose another name, it wont really be the old band. Besides he named it. It'd be no great loss as it's not like we've gigged much or built a following (and probably wont with him on keys).

 

He didn't co-write any of the songs we're performing, the parts he did write are the keyboard riffs - which for the most part I'll either be glad they're gone, or indifferent about it. There's one or two decent parts he plays, but the bad out weighs the good by a long shot.

 

I know for a fact he'll be gutted about it, but if we don't do something the end result will be the same - i.e. he ends up with no band to play in.

 

Besides we all get on great, i met the drummer and other guitarist through the band and count them as good mates and I like playing with them. I count our keys player as a good mate, but don't like playing with him (at all) - I guess it's that simple.

 

It'd be far easier to cut my loses and leave the band and thereby avoiding offending anyone, but having been in bands before - I know it's rare to find 4 really good musicians that gel together.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Originally posted by Knottyhed LOL - thanks for Jimi, that's really pscyched me up for it!! Yeh you're right though - it's a "cold shot". The only other option is to just split and all go our separate ways, we can't just split up and reform without him a few weeks later (as that's both under-hand and a "cold shot" and will probably leave him feeling more bitter). I don't think he knows he sucks, or if he does - he doesn't know how badly, or how much it's starting to bother us. Basically it's at the point now where both me and the bassist have decided we'd rather leave the band than continue as is. I'm either going to find the balls to crap on one of my mates for the good of the band, or I'm going to leave the band - closely followed by the bassist. Either way my mate ends up without a band anymore.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

If the band is established and has a following then going down hard is bad.

Once you get rolling you want to keep rolling.

 

OTOH, if the guy is a really good friend that you want to keep than you have no choice.

 

If it's a matter of his just not practicing at home then he's doing it to himself.

 

If he is really trying to improve and just doesn't have it and isn't going to "get it" anytime soon, well that's a whole different thing.

 

I was in this situation and I let the other guys take the blame for not wanting my friend back. Of course, he quit so that gave me an out too.

 

But after that experience I will never get into a band situation with a good friend again. It's like buying or selling a car to a friend or family member. If it goes bad then it is always out there hanging over your head.

 

I try to keep band members at an arm's length - be friendly and personable but not get to be bestest friends or anything like that.