Members PeteZTrucker Posted January 16, 2006 Members Share Posted January 16, 2006 My solution is to play (for money) with a variety of other musicians; we play as a 6-piece rock/blues outfit in bars, as a 4-piece unplugged group in swanky hotels, as duos in small beach bars and for free anywhere there's free food and drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burgess Posted January 16, 2006 Members Share Posted January 16, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF Actually, there's a pretty good market for people using backing tracks. I made more money as part of a duo with backing tracks than I do in a full band. Smaller clubs with a smaller budget, less space or just don't want the volume that goes with a drum kit will use you when they won't use a full band.On the other hand, you won't get into the bigger clubs, but if you do it right, you can still get people on the dance floor and make money at it. Yeah, I'm sure there is. Personally though I've no interest in it whatsoever but that's just me. I do play to backing tracks all the time. I'll record my takes, post up for friends on the net. Even my originals I'll play all the tracks myself so it's not that I wouldn't play that way. On stage though I've always felt one of my strengths was the way I interact with other musicians so a backing track doesn't interest me. So it doesn't interest me to play to a backing track in public nor am I interested in seeing anyone else play to one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Originally posted by PeteZTrucker BlueStrat; you wrote "I just want guys to think about what it means to the business in general when money isn't a factor for them. I think most guys just don't think about it much."Very true, sadly, but I can't help feeling your reaction is a little over the top towards someone who's been out of the game and merely wants to get back out there playing again? Not every bar owner, or promoter, whoever, wants an on the road band from another town. They're quite happy if a local duo, albeit 'thoughtless' underpaid musicians, keep the punters drinking or eating or simply entertaining them, and it IS a marketplace of supply and demand, isn't it. Is your resentment fair? As long as anyone enters any marketplace and offers their services for a reduced rate simply because they don't need the money, then I have an issue with it. I especially have an issue with it if they think it isn't worth a decent price. If you know it isn't that good, why sell it in the marketplace? The principle applies regardless of the market. How would you like it if a bunch of retired guys or hobbyists came to where you worked and offered to do your job for less because they don't need the money and they're just looking for something to do for fun? FWIW, I don't really have an issue if guys go out and create their own market, like finding a gig where one didn't exist before. But I can't tell you the number of times I have been asked by established venue owners why my price (which is roughly what it was in 1983) is so high when ________ will do it for half that. One guy around here, who makes a ton of money on his day job, actually pays his guys out of his own pocket so he can lowball everyone to get gigs, just to get his mug on stage and feed his marginally talented ego. That lowers the bar for everyone. I guess I and everyone else are supposed to just buy new gear, maintain lights and a PA, run my band truck, buy gas, pay an accountant, and do rehearsals out of pocket. Anyway, this argument has become a dead horse, and I know nothing I say is going to stop musicians from blowing their own feet off. Hey, as long as it benefits them in the short run, screw everyone else long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SanDiego333 Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat One guy around here, who makes a ton of money on his day job, actually pays his guys out of his own pocket so he can lowball everyone to get gigs, just to get his mug on stage and feed his marginally talented ego. That lowers the bar for everyone. And there you have it sport fans. BINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeeU 22 Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 One thing to remember guys. Our biggest competition as bands/performers doesn't come from other musicians. It comes from DJ's. As a musician you have two choices. You can take the "artistic" road and play for free or the door. Or you can go head to head with the DJ's and find your niche in the cover world. Around here decent cover bands start at around a grand a night. Some of the established groups will pull as much as 3 to 4 grand a night. Most of the decent bands are busy as they wanna be. There is still a market for cover bands. Original acts have to be fairly established before they get any of the paying gigs around here. Most of the venue operators and booking agents know who they are booking and know how good they are and won't book anyone unless they are at a certain level. My point is this. If guys are doing gigs for free don't sweat it, you don't want to play those venues anyway. Everyone needs a place to start and hone their performance skills. If you are good and the package you are selling is saleable you will find good paying gigs. Neil ps. The guy paying players out of his pocket in order to lowball other players is poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SanDiego333 Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Originally posted by SeeU 22 Our biggest competition as bands/performers doesn't come from other musicians. It comes from DJ's. I'll agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SanDiego333 Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 And I'll add....that DJ's are NOT performers. If I play a CD of ANOTHER performer....how am I the artist? Cause I'm cool wit my intro and stuff? (ducking...getting ready for the flak...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeeU 22 Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Originally posted by SanDiego333 And I'll add....that DJ's are NOT performers. If I play a CD of ANOTHER performer....how am I the artist? Cause I'm cool wit my intro and stuff? (ducking...getting ready for the flak...) That is an interesting can of worms to open up. I'm not a DJ, but I recognize the fact that there are good DJ's and bad ones. This means that there must be some skill involved in being a DJ. The only way to improve you skills is through practice and experience especially live experience. That is something they have in common with musicians. How many times have had a set list written up and after the second song scrapped it and just called tunes to the band based on your interpretation of what the crowd wants to hear. That is the biggest skill of a DJ is knowing what to play and when. The cool intros, segues between songs, and remixs are techniques they use to keep the dance floor packed. That said I am not a fan of DJ's. I would much rather watch a live band. But as a band we can learn from DJ's. The biggest thing I have found is we can't be afraid of technology. A couple years back I went to a buddies venue to check out a cover band he had been bragging about. They were a 5 piece. Drummer, 2 guitars, bass, and female singer. Every one else in the band sang excellent as well. They ran a laptop with some backing tracks live as well. These guys could cover anything and do it justice. They did dabbled in everything from Nelly to classic rock to Bon Jovi to Pink. Just about anything you can imagine. This was the first time I had seen backing tracks integrated into a live band like this. As a musician sitting in the audience I was impressed at how they used technology to give themselves an edge over DJ's and other bands as well. Did I feel like they were cheating because they ran some loops and synth parts? Not at all. These guys were smoking musicians. Their vocal harmonies were awesome often having 4 seperate parts, not just 4 singers singing the same part. The real kicker was when the female singer tripped over her mic cord on Meatloaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights". By the time she picked her self up she came in a bar late. I thought this is going to be a trainwreck since the arrangement is set in stone because of the backing track. The piano part was sequenced. To my amazement the rhythm guitarist walked back to the keyboard, shut of the now out to lunch sequence and proceeded to play the piano part perfectly. My point is technolgy is our friend. Use it to create music, play music and entertain people. At one time electric guitars were shunned upon. Synths were shunned upon. Computers in music is in its infancy, but the creative possibilities are endless. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members b-lance Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 i'm hoping that its not taking you 30 minutes to load in with just an acoustic. Originally posted by emdub123 I agree with the larger point that Blue Strat is trying to make. Here's my spin on it: When I first started out, it was me and my acoustic guitar. I only knew enough songs to do two 50-minute sets, and I did (and still do) plenty of them off-key. I didn't have much confidence in my abilities and didn't ask to be paid. It's now six months later, and I've got some experience (4 gigs) under my belt and feel that I'm at a level where I should be paid.The consequence of working for free has been two-fold: First, working for free sets up a relationship where THEY'RE doing YOU a favor. If you start out getting paid, there's parity in the relationship -- even if you're only getting $20. There IS a difference!Second, I found that it takes 30 minutes to load my crap into the car, x minutes to drive there, 30 minutes to set up and sound check, then do it all again after the show. This is a huge time commitment that, when you're not getting paid, begins to diminish the joy of playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PeteZTrucker Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Bluestrat: "How would you like it if a bunch of retired guys or hobbyists came to where you worked and offered to do your job for less because they don't need the money and they're just looking for something to do for fun?" I am in exactly that position. I drive trucks, have done for 30 years, all round Europe. In Britain right now we're being swamped by Eastern European drivers who'll work for a third of our wages. OK they're not hobbyists but basically we've been undercut in the marketplace as you have been. But there's no point bitching about it. If your band is economically unattractive to a promoter or barowner, then you're screwed. I don't blame the Polish and Ukranian drivers, they're only doing what I would do if I was them. There's no point sitting on a barstool (or on here) moaning about talentless anti-social egocentric musically incompetent nitwits. They're the future!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 Originally posted by PeteZTrucker There's no point sitting on a barstool (or on here) moaning about talentless anti-social egocentric musically incompetent nitwits. They're the future!!! :eek: *puts gun to head* I'm afraid so:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerrye Posted January 17, 2006 Members Share Posted January 17, 2006 My boss often provides legal services for free, hoping that the client will use him for a real estate closing in the future. This may be because there is an over supply of attorneys. I'm sometimes put off by this, but my boss is very successful. We use technology to type contracts, when we use forms in MS Word. Sometimes we use the web as a resource. But we have to keep it human, by making changes in the contracts to fit the unique situation of the client. I think most musicians who play for free eventually charge market prices, when their investment of time, money, and energy, and when their level of performance so justifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VockViel Posted January 18, 2006 Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 You're all forgetting one simple, but important factor.. The venues that are looking to get a recognized talent & entertainment for their patrons will pay for that, and the cheap bars that are just looking to have someone play for background noise will pay very little or nothing. So in the end, those that work for very little or free are actually just filling a marketplace niche and really aren't "taking anything away" from the established pros. People recognize the difference between good quality (generally meaning appealing) from bad quality (generally meaning unappealing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.