If you want a song written right, you gotta write it yourself.

[Eye_Of_The_Liger]

Picture this, if you will...

 

You have a good song idea. I mean a really good one, and you have a clear vision about how the song is to be written/played. You have all the parts laid out just right, and you know EXACTLY how the drummer, bass player, guitarist, etc are each going to play it. And you're really excited about it.

 

And then you introduce it to your band, only to have the "too-many-cooks-spoil-the-broth" effect set in, thereby completely ruining your song and making it sound nothing like what you intended.

 

Yeah, I've had that happen before, and it sucks...

 

Anyone else?

 

Reminds me of the first Foo Fighters album. Dave Grohl played all the instruments and wrote all the songs. Complete, uninterrupted artistic input. Must be nice...

[axe2 2001]

Yep, it can be hard when you have other members giving thier input. I started a second band for that and other reasons. I just go ahead and write {censored} like I want it, record it with a drum machine and do everything myself, and present it to them to learn. The drums I leave open to my drummers interpretation, to a point. I want him to keep the basic beat the same. The bass lines I want done pretty close to how I wrote them. Some guitar parts are intertwined with the bass line. Fortunatly I work with some very cool, unselfish guys that like what i'm doing and don't question the arrangements. If they do have suggestions I listen and see if it fits with what I want in the song. They don't really have alot of writing ability so they are cool with everything. My other band did some originals where we all had input. We were also able evoke "supreme executive order" on some songs that we had a complete vision on. But the songs had to be within a certain framework of style that fit our band and accomodated all the players. If you want total control you have to write stuff everyone likes. But for what it's worth, I find recording stuff completely alone the best way to get a song idea out. Just a simple 4 or 8 track recorder and a drum machine is all you need. Well, and a bass and a bass rig and a good board with good rack units....... I guess it does get expensive but if you want total control, it's a small price to pay.

[bonscottvocals]

Not to be a smart-aleck, but when you have such complete control, you become an original musician, but don't your bandmates become cover guys? What's the diff? They're playing the parts you laid out the way you laid them out, right? No different than if Paul Simon had written them and called up some session folks. Just an observation.

[BlueStrat]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals Not to be a smart-aleck, but when you have such complete control, you become an original musician, but don't your bandmates become cover guys? What's the diff? They're playing the parts you laid out the way you laid them out, right? No different than if Paul Simon had written them and called up some session folks. Just an observation.

 

 

 

I tend to agree. Many times, what I heard in my head just didn't sound that good out in the air. The best songs I have are the ones where I just had a rough sketch, some lyrics, chords, and a key, and a basic feel in mind. But I had competent players and let them flesh out the parts themselves, bass player, drummer, and I even had horn players come up with their own parts. I didn't step in unless what they were doing got off the track, then I asked them if they had any other ideas for that part. It worked well. I'm not a drummer, or a bass player, or a horn player. Having guys who do those things come up with their own parts gives them a sense of contributing to the life of the song , and they will tend to play it as such.

[THBv2.0]

Originally posted by BlueStrat I tend to agree. Many times, what I heard in my head just didn't sound that good out in the air. The best songs I have are the ones where I just had a rough sketch, some lyrics, chords, and a key, and a basic feel in mind. But I had competent players and let them flesh out the parts themselves, bass player, drummer, and I even had horn players come up with their own parts. I didn't step in unless what they were doing got off the track, then I asked them if they had any other ideas for that part. It worked well. I'm not a drummer, or a bass player, or a horn player. Having guys who do those things come up with their own parts gives them a sense of contributing to the life of the song , and they will tend to play it as such.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

[Aerys]

I think it's good for all members to write their own parts to an extent, then the song gives you the personality of the band, not just one guy.

 

That said, when I have an idea that is just so, I write it all myself cause sometimes, I really dont want them changed from how they are in my head.

[flee]

In my band it tends to start with the guitar parts being written which is done by me and the other guitar player. Then we jam on it and the drummer and bass come up with what they're gonna play. Then we try and figure out how the songs gonna come together and flow. This way you still write what you wanna hear and then bring it to your band and get em to throw in some input.

 

Sometimes they'll wanna chage it a bit. sometimes not. Most of the time if they want a change I'll step back and think about it/play it and it usually will sound better.

[Super 8]

 

Originally posted by Eye_Of_The_Liger And then you introduce it to your band, only to have the "too-many-cooks-spoil-the-broth" effect set in, thereby completely ruining your song and making it sound nothing like what you intended.

 

 

I can relate to some degree.

I'm a drummer, so I've spent my whole career helping other musicians realize their ambitions. However, I have written a few tunes, and some of them had very definite ideas of what I wanted to hear. Occasionally a guitar player decides he wants to take it in another direction, or throw in a solo, and it is NOT what I wanted.

 

Sometimes this has lead to problems with people. I can hear the parts in my head, but because I played drums, and had very limited skills on guitar, I couldn't reproduce them for the other musicians very well. It requires guitarists who are patient, and interested in helping you realize your idea. And most guitarists are not very interested in those things. They like to call the shots.

 

On the other hand, I have worked with a bass player friend of mine who writes songs for many years. He knows what he wants, and he tells me if he likes what I'm playing, or if I should be doing something different. However, he's always interested in and often surprised by some of my ideas for his tunes. It feels very collaborative, and it's very satisfying for me. Our relationship works because we are both interested in listening to each other. There are no egos.

 

As an aside;

Since I have two kids now, I no longer have room to set up and play my drums in my house. The only time I get to play my kit is when I perform on stage, or at my friends basement studio. So I have taken this opportunity to develop my skills on the guitar. Part of the reason I've done this is because it really is the only instrument I can practice at home right now, but a big reason is because I'm tired of being dictated to by other musicians on what to play. If I have decent skills on a chordal instrument, I have a lot more freedom to play what I want.

[Eye_Of_The_Liger]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals Not to be a smart-aleck, but when you have such complete control, you become an original musician, but don't your bandmates become cover guys? What's the diff? They're playing the parts you laid out the way you laid them out, right? No different than if Paul Simon had written them and called up some session folks. Just an observation.

 

 

Yes, that's right. Theoretically they'd have no input whatsoever. The song will be mine and mine alone, basically. Bear in mind that there's nothing really wrong with that in and of itself though, and if the complete song doesn't sound good, to me or the rest of the band, then I won't mind if my bandmates decide to mess with it to try to make it better. I guess all I really want is to be able to at least get my idea, in its entirety, exactly as I have it in my head, off of my chest. Though most of the time, in my experience, that's wishful thinking.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not like that all the time for me or my bands. In fact it rarely is. Usually I'll have just a general idea for a tune, or I'll just have as little as one guitar part that I think sounds cool and hopefully the others will fill in the blanks with their own ideas. But even then I can still be pretty adamant about how whatever I come up with should be played.

 

I can go either way. It just depends...

[Eye_Of_The_Liger]

Originally posted by Super 8 Sometimes this has lead to problems with people. I can hear the parts in my head, but because I played drums, and had very limited skills on guitar, I couldn't reproduce them for the other musicians very well. It requires guitarists who are patient, and interested in helping you realize your idea. And most guitarists are not very interested in those things. They like to call the shots.

 

Oh, I know, I know. Stupid guitar players! And I say that as a guitar player, but also as someone has had to deal with the guitar player mentality on stage while playing another instrument (Saxophone, in case you're wondering). In fact, I came this close to an all out brawl one night because of it!. It's something that I both understand and take issue with.

[axe2 2001]

Just a followup, We worked on two songs I wrote and recorded yesterday. We did tweek them around some. But they are still what I heard in my head from the start. I just didn't want to give the appearance that I'm like an ego driven dictator not allowing the other guys any voice at all. The drummer really can't write stuff per say but he'll hum or word out a progression or timing thing and we'll work thru it. I wouldn't want to have them getting fed up with "my" stuff. I consider it the bands work. not just mine. Recording with a drum machine is fine for getting ideas out but I'd never consider it done until it was recorded with all of us. Those versions are alive while the machine can get steril sounding.

[THX1138]

My two cents for what its worth, if you have the right group of bandmates, its much more beneficial for everyone to get their input. Every once in awhile, somebody will bring a song in to our band done and it'll be ok as-is, or with some minor tweaking. But much more often than not, its the collective of ideas that really makes it a complete song. I have great respect for all the guys in our band, but even the most talented of writers can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. Just because the writer wants a song to go a certain way doesn't neccessarilly mean that that way best serves the tune.

[Eye_Of_The_Liger]

Man, I think I should've started the title of this thread with the word "Sometimes".

 

There is a fine line between getting what you want, and being a dick about getting what you want, when it comes to the songwriting process. I'm aware of that. But I've also seen many a good idea get butchered beyond recognition because the rest of the band either doesn't understand or doesn't care about what you're trying to convey to them. That can be really frustrating.

[kludge]

It all boils down to you being respectful of your bandmates, and them being respectful of you, and everyone taking responsibility for the sound. To some extent, they are obligated to play the parts as you imagine them, but by the same token, you're obligated to leave enough space in the parts for your bandmates to express themselves.

 

Now, if your bandmates are GOOD and you appreciate who they are as musicians, odds are they'll give you back a part that is actually cooler than what you came up with on your own. The band's version of your song should be more than the sum of its parts. If it isn't, you need to be in a better band.

 

In some cases, you may need other musical outlets (either solo, or a different band) to get out songs and sounds that may not work in your primary band. I'm in a two-songwriter band. I don't bring all my material to the band, and she doesn't bring all of hers. We play what WE can play together, that sounds like the band.

 

This is all stuff to keep in mind when working on a bandmate's material, too. You want to play a guitar solo? Great, IF it adds to the song, and not just your ego. Find the spot for it, play something that makes the song better. Hell, if you can't add to the song, don't play anything! Lots of great bands are willing to strip themselves down to duos or trios within to play minimal versions of songs. Would Fleetwood Mac's "Songbird" have been better with drums? Nope.

 

But ultimately, you need to respect and appreciate your bandmates, and work together to build something greater than anything you can play alone. It's not just about parts, it's about personalities. And if you can't appreciate who they are as musicians, or they don't appreciate you, don't play with them!