Where did the gigs go?

[wheresgrant3]

Originally posted by bonscottvocals rhat, the problems with having a horn section come with having to pay them and use them. I might do 10 songs or so that have a horn sound, yet I've got 47 songs on my set list. Do I pay 3 guys to stand around for 37 songs? I agree that the sound is not as true, but for small clubs where space, cash, and gigs are tight, the solution is to keep the band size as low as possible while keeping the sound good for the crowd. Also, you should see the looks on people's faces when they hear piano, organ, sax, or a horn section, then they finally figure out that it's a guitar player doing it. They freak, seriously. It's a gimmick, but every little bit helps.

 

Agreed!!! I play guitar and picked up keys just so we would be able to handle horn arrangements, strings, synths, piano. We cover everything from Metallica to Dave Matthews to Prince to Adam Ant. For the type music, clubs and crowds we play there's no reason to hire and add horn players for dynamics. As long as parts are handled 'economically' they can sound great in a live rock mix.

 

Besides... with a great band, that has good stage prescence, most people in the audience are paying attention to the Front guy/girl anyway...

[worthyjoe]

I don't think it's so much about bar managers wanting to hire the cheapest band possible, although that might be true in a few cases. I think it's all about draw. If a band can draw people to the bar, the bar owner will not care if the band sucks or not. And on the opposite end, you could be a great band but they won't want you back if you can't bring people out.

 

It's all about draw and talent (or lack there of) is not always a factor.

[Blackwatch]

 

For the type music, clubs and crowds we play there's no reason to hire and add horn players for dynamics.

 

 

The reason would be that nothing beats the sound of real horns.

[BlueStrat]

I actually did quite well with a trio and two horns (sax and trumpet), sort of the Robert Cray setup. But even that got too hard to book after awhile.

[laidback]

It's all about draw and talent (or lack there of) is not always a factor.

 

 

How do consistently draw people to come out and hear you? For sure, if you always bring a crowd it'll be easier to get booked again at that bar. The question is how you get a regualr following to come out and hear you.

[BlueStrat]

 

Originally posted by laidback It's all about draw and talent (or lack there of) is not always a factor.

 

 

 

How do consistently draw people to come out and hear you? For sure, if you always bring a crowd it'll be easier to get booked again at that bar. The question is how you get a regualr following to come out and hear you.

 

That's the point of this thread. The consensus seems to be: increasingly, you dont, for all the aforementioned reasons.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals Also, you should see the looks on people's faces when they hear piano, organ, sax, or a horn section, then they finally figure out that it's a guitar player doing it. They freak, seriously. It's a gimmick, but every little bit helps.

 

 

 

The neutering of a guitar player isnt a fun thing to watch ....lol. rat

[bonscottvocals]

Originally posted by rhat The neutering of a guitar player isnt a fun thing to watch ....lol. rat

 

[Scafeets]

 

Originally posted by Blackwatch Bluestrat is right on. But I do see a resurgence of acoustic style gigs. I think some are getting tired of really loud music, and I think club owners see that they can get music for less money by hiring a 3 peice band, and they fit on smaller stages. I have a two piece doing acoustic style blues, jazz, and sing/songwriter originals and I can work every weekend if I keep organized.(which I haven't been lately). As far as dealing with club owners...try doing your business during the week instead of Saturday night when they got a million things going on.

 

 

+1

Trying to talk to a club owner on a Sat. night is pointless. Find out when he'll be available during the day.

[Outkaster]

 

Originally posted by BlueStrat How do consistently draw people to come out and hear you? For sure, if you always bring a crowd it'll be easier to get booked again at that bar. The question is how you get a regualr following to come out and hear you.

 

 

That's the point of this thread. The consensus seems to be: increasingly, you dont, for all the aforementioned reasons.

 

That is really what I meant when I came up with the idea for this thread. We have a gig this Thursday night and I am praying we are going to have a decent turn out. I was tellling the guy's at practice tonight that it is like pulling teeth to get a gig nowadays. It is so much leg work. People just do not go out anymore. I cannot believe the scene has changed in just a couple years. It is no one's fault but how it is I guess.......

[Outkaster]

Well we played last night to a mostly empty room again. It is too bad the band sounded great. One thing I do know is that you have to do a lot of promoting of yourself or else no one knows you are out there.

[pursuitboy]

I don't think it's so much about bar managers wanting to hire the cheapest band possible, although that might be true in a few cases. I think it's all about draw. If a band can draw people to the bar, the bar owner will not care if the band sucks or not. And on the opposite end, you could be a great band but they won't want you back if you can't bring people out.

 

It's all about draw and talent (or lack there of) is not always a factor.

 

 

You hit the nail on the head!!

[mangojeep66]

 

Originally posted by DonaldDemon *siiiiiiiiighhhhhhhh* Sad but {censored}ing true. I have been thinking about this alot lately and have been getting discouraged. My original band takes so much effort and money with really nothing to show for it. On top of that it seems like the most contrived trendy bands get all the play and we eat {censored}. If I didn't love playing music so much I would have given up by now and I'm only 27.

 

 

This post is so interesting and informative. It confirms many of my unspoken thoughts about my personal experiences. I'm not done reading it, but I thought I'd mention that I still do it because I like playing. That's about it. I just got back into the gigging thing recently and I agree it's tough. However, I know going into it that I might be playing to empty bars on jam nights for awhile and just playing for my wife and her buddies.

 

for now it gets me off. I don't worry about the money because I'm not making any, and yes it's all about how many drinks they sell.

 

So, I make sure to encourage drinking and thank the bartender and all that. and I play songs that people like to drink to.

 

It's fun so far, but the pickins' are slim and I hate playing the same place over and over again even though they ask us back. It's hard to keep coming up with new stuff, rehearse and put on a good show. alot of work.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by bonscottvocals rhat, that's why we have a guy who plays through a guitar synth. We do horn-based tunes, and we don't even had a keyboardist, much less a horn player. All of our keys/horns sounds come from the Roland synth. All 4 of us are expected to be musicians so that we can keep our costs down and improve the effectiveness of the band. Bluestrat is dead on with his posts. There are so many people who think that a few power chords, a vocalist, a drummer, and a bassist who can play root notes is good enough for a gig. They're willing to take a couple hundred $'s less than you to get a gig and be heard by their girl-friends and moms. Many of these bands don't even play more than a few gigs before they pack it in. It's cheaper for a small club to hire a band like this, and they come a dime-a-dozen. I'm not in an originals band, so the whole 'sharing' thing doesn't happen often, so we're expected to have a different set list than last week's band. You've got to have a hook, and it's got to have a draw. I'm in Upstate NY as well, and yes, it's getting harder. You have the drinking laws, smoking bans, etc... It's getting tough these days, and it all goes back to the list that Bluestrat gave.

 

 

 

well the good news is that what i think you are suffereing from could turn around ...... there are going to be a crapper load of boomers hitting retirement age .... with the time to listen to live music ,,,, this generation pretty well invented the sex , drugs and rock and roll... thing ..... hopfully they will insist on real live music ......not some DJ or a half assed power tio .....with a screamer pff key singer ...... There should be a way to get these boomers out to listen to live music ...... i think the key is to get them to be willing to pay for good entertainment ,, instead of expensive drinks .......maybe a musicians club ,,,, who knows. I have been brain stormin the problem here latley ,,,,,{censored} if you are going to end up playing for low pay you might as well run the venue .... who knows .....maybe its time for the band to own the bar lol ,,,. rat

[BlueStrat]

Rhat, I luv ya man, but I think it's wishful thinking to believe that people entering their 60s are going to go out and hear bands more than they do now. Most of my crowd are boomers, and they usually hit the door for home by 10:30 after nursing a couple of drinks, if they come out at all. increasingly, I'm hearing "We wanted to come and see you, but 9:00 is just too late to wait for a band to start!"

[rhat]

Originally posted by BlueStrat Rhat, I luv ya man, but I think it's wishful thinking to believe that people entering their 60s are going to go out and hear bands more than they do now. Most of my crowd are boomers, and they usually hit the door for home by 10:30 after nursing a couple of drinks, if they come out at all. increasingly, I'm hearing "We wanted to come and see you, but 9:00 is just too late to wait for a band to start!"

 

 

So play a dinner show ,,,,I spend alot of time down on south padre island texas ,,,, its an older crowd ,,, the band starts at 7

 

they do what you call sunset shows .... a couple drinks a bite to eat ... may slide down to another club catch a set ,, and home by 11 ..... These people aint dead guy ,,, they just operate on a different time sched ..... hell i am retired ,,, i am a 11 am to 3 am kinda guy ,,,, i will turn this evil computer off ,,, go play guitar for an hour then hit the sack ..... i got in an hour and a half earlier in the day .....todays boomers are alot more active then you give them credit for ,,, its just they dont haunt the bars till 2 am ..... hell alot of the ones i know do several thousand mile bike trips ..... our club had a dinner dance ..... we hire a live band , the whole thing is winding down by 11 pm ..... we pay some decent money for a seasoned band ......dinner a 3 hour gig ,,, and its on home to the tee pee ......I hear what you are saying..... but i know this demogrhapic pretty well ... i see the kind of money they spend ...... they are not cheap .....i think its a market ,, but it has to be tapped on terms that work for them. Just brain stormin the problem ,,,, food for thought ,,, gotta run ,,, the H140 is callin me .... take care ,, rat

[BlueStrat]

 

Originally posted by rhat So play a dinner show ,,,,I spend alot of time down on south padre island texas ,,,, its an older crowd ,,, the band starts at 7 they do what you call sunset shows .... a couple drinks a bite to eat ... may slide down to another club catch a set ,, and home by 11 ..... These people aint dead guy ,,, they just operate on a different time sched ..... hell i am retired ,,, i am a 11 am to 3 am kinda guy ,,,, i will turn this evil computer off ,,, go play guitar for an hour then hit the sack ..... i got in an hour and a half earlier in the day .....todays boomers are alot more active then you give them credit for ,,, its just they dont haunt the bars till 2 am ..... hell alot of the ones i know do several thousand mile bike trips ..... our club had a dinner dance ..... we hire a live band , the whole thing is winding down by 11 pm ..... we pay some decent money for a seasoned band ......dinner a 3 hour gig ,,, and its on home to the tee pee ......I hear what you are saying..... but i know this demogrhapic pretty well ... i see the kind of money they spend ...... they are not cheap .....i think its a market ,, but it has to be tapped on terms that work for them. Just brain stormin the problem ,,,, food for thought ,,, gotta run ,,, the H140 is callin me .... take care ,, rat

 

 

Those are the hours I like!

 

Well, you could be right, and I might be full o' crap. I do a restaurant gig regularly that is 7-10 on weeknights or 8-12 on weekends.

 

I'm seriously considering getting my band back together (been on break for over a year) and seeing if some of the venues will agree to 8-12 instead of 9-1. That way, we're not playing to a dead house at closing time.

 

By the way, what are you riding, bro?

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by BlueStrat Those are the hours I like! Well, you could be right, and I might be full o' crap. I do a restaurant gig regularly that is 7-10 on weeknights or 8-12 on weekends. I'm seriously considering getting my band back together (been on break for over a year) and seeing if some of the venues will agree to 8-12 instead of 9-1. That way, we're not playing to a dead house at closing time. By the way, what are you riding, bro?

 

 

 

Hmm what do i ride lol... now we are talking ,,, I have a 01 black Electra Glide classic , carb bike ,, with cruise and a set of lower fairing. Its got 54k on it..... My thing with the bike is long distance touring ..... we do a big fall run every year as kind of a last round up to the riding season ,,, michigan has winter. we alwasy end up down at south padre island texas ,, but alwasy take the long way ... last year we rode the smokies on the way down from kzoo to the island..... and rode deals gap ,, tail of the dragon ,,, 318 curves in 11 miles of mountain roads .... As for the band thing ,, I havent played in a band for years ,,, but do wanna fire up on the giggin again ,,,,,i am a keyboard guy and guitar player .... making the transisiton from flat top finger pickin to electric blues ...... i have a teacher now and reallly am getting serious on the project ... the keyboard background really helps, so things are moving along at a rate that i am pleased with ,, but then i practice alot ...... Its a matter of moving my solo skills from keys to strings .... so i am learing licks and scales.. the phrasing and bends come pretty easy to me from the keyboard background .... you know ,, i have the music in my head ,, but need to get it to the strings ..... what you riding / you do any touring .. where ya from ,,,,,, kalmazoo. here ,,, we like to refer to the zoo as the home of orville gibson's ghost ...... he lives on parson street and didnt move to nashville lol. Yea i think the dinner show thing has some merit .... generally older folks like to listen to good music ,,, the drinking and dancing and chasin women is secondary to the music .....I did alot of sales and marketing type stuff ..... so this where did the gigs go ,, is an interesting thread .......I think there is a market for live music,,, the key is finding how to tap into it .....i know the dinner show is the way to get the boomers.......face it ,,, we like to be home early ,, but we aint dead yet .....and we do like our live entertainment ..... DJs suck. rat

[AJ6stringsting]

Originally posted by BlueStrat Believe it. Part of it is age: I'm 50. Let's face it, I'm not going to draw a crowd of 22 year olds; it was always more like 40-60. And guys my age who I would draw are home watching their 50 inch TVs or motorcycling for the weekend or off on weekend getaways or have the grandkids for the weekend, and in any case are in bed by 11 or so. They don't drink as much as they used to, so even when they come out as a large group, they usually only have a couple of drinks and leave early. I can identify with losing your following. At one point here, I was covering a 1200 mile diameter, I opened for a lot of big concerts here, did a lot of high profile festivals, had 4 CDs, got national press, bla bla bla. I'm not saying this to blow my horn, I'm telling you to make a point: When I decided to lay it down due to burnout (it was only going to be for a few months initially), all the hundreds of fans I thought I had here were mostly in my imagination. Not one person, NOT ONE, ever called me to find out where I was playing, or why I wasn't. It's been over a year and a half now, and no one has called at all. Not even any musician friends, which is the hardest to take. But it also is a good reminder that it is easy to overestimate your own importance while people are slapping you on the back telling you how great you are and wanting you to autograph this or that or get their picture taken with you. But reality is another matter entirely. In truth, you really aren't that important to people. You're nothing more than a temporary diversion from their lives. That's why I am so amused here that guys take themselves so seriously about promoting their band and making banners and websites and bla bla bla. In the end, it's pretty much pointless, because it will never be enough. The fact is people may remember your name or they may not, but in either case, they don't care. You're just another commodity in the market place. Part of it is the number of bands: today, every swinging dick with a guitar and 6 months of lessons is making a cd. Because they have a CD, they feel the need to promote it, and to promote it in a cluttered market, they have to be willing to go play for free in order to get on stage, so they can promote a cd that is just one out of a million trying to be sold for little to no money. Because there are so many bands, they will put 4 or 5 on a bill, so each band only needs to know 12 songs or so. In some places they have to pay to play, in other words sell a minimum number of tickets that they have to buy in advance from the club and sell to get their money back, which they almost never do. Part of it is the competition for entertainment dollars-home theaters, cineplexes, instant music available form satellite and computers, 500 channels on tv, and so on. When I was a young man, I played 6 nights a week, and bands that couldn't play six nights a week four hours a night (5 in Oregon and 6 in Alaska) didn't get the good gigs and had to play in crappy little bars that couldn't draw a crowd. Because there was such a demand for bands who could travel, you could make a good living (500/week and rooms in 1980 dollars) And everyone went to the bar to see bands, since TV had like 13 channels, there were no personal computers, no DVD, no bigscreen TVs and a multiplex had 4 theaters. Part of it is the social stigma attached to drinking and driving (deservedly so), and the resultant crackdown by police and the implementation of lower blood alcohol levels to be considered legally impaired. And a lot of it is the bar business itself: looking at it from a barowner's standpoint (I'm not one, but I know several), what they see is the overhead continuing to rise: Employee costs, liability insurance, utilities like electic, water, gas and trash; proprerty taxes, sales tax, liquor tax, price increases from vendors, maintenance, and so on. Yet there is only so much they can charge for a drink to cover costs, which means they have to rely on volume rather than price to sell drinks, which means that if you can't draw a crowd that will spend money, you won't do them any good. Many is the time I've felt good about a night because the place is packed, but at the end of the night, it is the till, not the headcount, that tells the story. I've had other nights when the place was moderately full but the till was through the ceiling. Why? Answer: Too many bands rely on drawing a big crowd, and see it as the object. But in reality, the object is to make the cash register ring. If the crowd is too big, it actually hinders sales and hinders turnover, because newer people won't come in if there isn't anywhere to sit, and if people can't get to the bar and the waitress can't get through the crowd quickly, the bar loses sales. Instead of selling how many people you can bring in, try selling how much money you can bring in. THAT is what gets you gigs. Sorry for the bloviating but it's therapy for me!

Seems like blueStrat hit the nail on the head. I used to gig all over the U.S. and Canada, I stopped being a "Road Dog" in 1992, and live music seems to be on it's way out like live theaters or buggy whips. As pathetic as music has been getting since 1992, I think it's going to get to the point where no one is going to play a real instrument or write new music. It won't surprise me (as pathetic as music has gotten since 1992), if it would be in style to play air guitar or with brooms with pre-recorded music in the back ground and be on Mtv and get a fan base.

[rhat]

Originally posted by rhat I dont think so ,,, i think that the types of gigs will change ,,, you have to realize that we have a whole huge boomer generation that was raised on live music , top 40 , WLS radio DJ/s that dont really buy into the DJ thing. This age group is getting ready to retire ...... they will have alot of free time and are going to still be active enought that they will be seeking live entertainment. They wont want metal ,, they will want country music and good songs they recognize from their younger years ...... the key is come up with a veneu that starts early ,, doesnt charge an arm and a leg for a drink , and has reasonable food ....... face it ,, these people can go out 3 nights a week and listen to live music if you come up with the right product and the right venue to meet their goals....Being retired is pretty boring unless you have things to occupy that time ...... I dont have this whole concept worked out yet ,,, but i am workin on it ,,,,. I have spent enough time in a area that is loaded with these kind of people.... Go south young man lol...... thats where the geezers are going to live lol........I look at marketing as a demographic things when it comes to live music ,,,,, young people go to the bars to meet other young people for the purpose of hookin up ........old people go to listen to live music because they already played a game of golf ,, or went fishing ,,,,and they want to get out of the house or park model and socialize.. People who are young, but married , areraising kids,,, and just dont have the time or the money to spend out listeneing to the band ........you want gigs market to the demographics ,,,,,,,, look at the great markeging success stories .... HD , Golf, and property in warm climates .... people dem geezers are the pockets you want to be mining ...You can follow the boom and bust marketing cycles of the boomers ....Swhinn,,,,,guitars after the beatles ......housing and mini van and travel ...........now striker hip joints ,,, and park models and RVs ........ rat

 

[Kevin T]

I also think there is a business model in here somewhere. One that takes advantage of the aging audience with $ and the plentiful aging players with $. Something like a quality open mic / music camp that charges to back up players with good band /sound /lights in a clean smokefree club during human hours 7-12pm! I just cant figure how to make enuf $ off it.

 

Kevin T

[dk123123dk]

Do u guys ever thing about playing to a YOUNG crowd??? You would be surprised how many youger cats still like to listen to the older stlye rock n roll. Toss a few grunge era covers in there and u will have a college bar jumping. And who drinks more than college kids???

 

I have had a hard time getting gigs as well. But i think the hardest part about being in a band is dealing with the other members, not getting gigs! You just gotta remind the owner/promoter that u will make him rich!

 

if u have a good band, you will be hired. If u think u have a good band, but u have no energy, u might get a few gigs, but no call backs. Its all about rockin the place out, and getting the audience involved with the show. That way you will be remembered after the drinks have worn away.

 

dk123123dk

[Blackwatch]

I was talking to the bartender at my gig on Sat. night, and we were wondering if a "party buss" might work for increasing bodies in bars. Have a buss pick you up, drive you to different bars all night and take you home. The cool thing is you cold charge the riders and you could also get a stipend from the bars as you're bringing them bodies too.

But we wondered what the liability insurance would be.....

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by Kevin T I also think there is a business model in here somewhere. One that takes advantage of the aging audience with $ and the plentiful aging players with $. Something like a quality open mic / music camp that charges to back up players with good band /sound /lights in a clean smokefree club during human hours 7-12pm! I just cant figure how to make enuf $ off it. Kevin T

 

 

 

I agree kev ,, there is a business model that will work ....i just dont have a handle on it yet .....I think the key is figure out basically a way to run a venue and make a end run around the things that drive the costs up that bars have. maybe a private musicians club. BYOB ..... you have a yearly membership .. and for the night membership ,,,, kinda like the bars were in utah. It doesnt have to be in the high dollar tourist strip .....in fact you can play off the fact that its more of a locals place ,,,, Tourists love nothing better than thinking they are breaking into the locals scene ....... is this a goofy idea ... or could it work? rat

[BeauNasty]

 

Originally posted by dk123123dk And who drinks more than college kids???

 

 

Bikers and construction workers.