Members Outkaster Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 I was in a band locally that did real well. We had a following, great music, and could regularly bring in over a hundred people on a Wednesday night. Our bass player had to leave the country in 2002 and the band split up because of it. Another guy and myself put together a project a year and a half later and are still having a bitch of a time gettings gigs. We littlerly go out every saturday night to get something going. We give a promo pack, website information, free t-stirts and everything else to give these club owners. It is like pulling teeth. Then with the following is non-existant. Some of our own crowd is gone, moved away, settled down with kids and so forth. I have read some of you guys talking about this but is it me or is this happening all over the country? Could things have changed this much in a few years? It is sad.
Members BlueStrat Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 Originally posted by Outkaster I was in a band locally that did real well. We had a following, great music, and could regularly bring in over a hundred people on a Wednesday night. Our bass player had to leave the country in 2002 and the band split up because of it. Another guy and myself put together a project a year and a half later and are still having a bitch of a time gettings gigs. We littlerly go out every saturday night to get something going. We give a promo pack, website information, free t-stirts and everything else to these club owners. It is like pulling teeth. Then with the following is non-existant. Some of our own crowd is gone, moved away, settled down with kids and so forth. I have read some of you guys talking about this but is it me or is this happening all over the country? Could things have changed this much in a few years? It is sad. Believe it. Part of it is age: I'm 50. Let's face it, I'm not going to draw a crowd of 22 year olds; it was always more like 40-60. And guys my age who I would draw are home watching their 50 inch TVs or motorcycling for the weekend or off on weekend getaways or have the grandkids for the weekend, and in any case are in bed by 11 or so. They don't drink as much as they used to, so even when they come out as a large group, they usually only have a couple of drinks and leave early. I can identify with losing your following. At one point here, I was covering a 1200 mile diameter, I opened for a lot of big concerts here, did a lot of high profile festivals, had 4 CDs, got national press, bla bla bla. I'm not saying this to blow my horn, I'm telling you to make a point: When I decided to lay it down due to burnout (it was only going to be for a few months initially), all the hundreds of fans I thought I had here were mostly in my imagination. Not one person, NOT ONE, ever called me to find out where I was playing, or why I wasn't. It's been over a year and a half now, and no one has called at all. Not even any musician friends, which is the hardest to take. But it also is a good reminder that it is easy to overestimate your own importance while people are slapping you on the back telling you how great you are and wanting you to autograph this or that or get their picture taken with you. But reality is another matter entirely. In truth, you really aren't that important to people. You're nothing more than a temporary diversion from their lives. That's why I am so amused here that guys take themselves so seriously about promoting their band and making banners and websites and bla bla bla. In the end, it's pretty much pointless, because it will never be enough. The fact is people may remember your name or they may not, but in either case, they don't care. You're just another commodity in the market place. Part of it is the number of bands: today, every swinging dick with a guitar and 6 months of lessons is making a cd. Because they have a CD, they feel the need to promote it, and to promote it in a cluttered market, they have to be willing to go play for free in order to get on stage, so they can promote a cd that is just one out of a million trying to be sold for little to no money. Because there are so many bands, they will put 4 or 5 on a bill, so each band only needs to know 12 songs or so. In some places they have to pay to play, in other words sell a minimum number of tickets that they have to buy in advance from the club and sell to get their money back, which they almost never do. Part of it is the competition for entertainment dollars-home theaters, cineplexes, instant music available form satellite and computers, 500 channels on tv, and so on. When I was a young man, I played 6 nights a week, and bands that couldn't play six nights a week four hours a night (5 in Oregon and 6 in Alaska) didn't get the good gigs and had to play in crappy little bars that couldn't draw a crowd. Because there was such a demand for bands who could travel, you could make a good living (500/week and rooms in 1980 dollars) And everyone went to the bar to see bands, since TV had like 13 channels, there were no personal computers, no DVD, no bigscreen TVs and a multiplex had 4 theaters. Part of it is the social stigma attached to drinking and driving (deservedly so), and the resultant crackdown by police and the implementation of lower blood alcohol levels to be considered legally impaired. And a lot of it is the bar business itself: looking at it from a barowner's standpoint (I'm not one, but I know several), what they see is the overhead continuing to rise: Employee costs, liability insurance, utilities like electic, water, gas and trash; proprerty taxes, sales tax, liquor tax, price increases from vendors, maintenance, and so on. Yet there is only so much they can charge for a drink to cover costs, which means they have to rely on volume rather than price to sell drinks, which means that if you can't draw a crowd that will spend money, you won't do them any good. Many is the time I've felt good about a night because the place is packed, but at the end of the night, it is the till, not the headcount, that tells the story. I've had other nights when the place was moderately full but the till was through the ceiling. Why? Answer: Too many bands rely on drawing a big crowd, and see it as the object. But in reality, the object is to make the cash register ring. If the crowd is too big, it actually hinders sales and hinders turnover, because newer people won't come in if there isn't anywhere to sit, and if people can't get to the bar and the waitress can't get through the crowd quickly, the bar loses sales. Instead of selling how many people you can bring in, try selling how much money you can bring in. THAT is what gets you gigs. Sorry for the bloviating but it's therapy for me!
Members tubedude Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 I am 48 and I remember playing 6 nights a week. Alot you said rings true. I did some gigs this Summer and Fall that had thousand in the audience signed autographs the whole bit. I left the band on Halloween. I don't miss that band at all, but I know I am only good as what I am doing now. I'll be back by next month with a new band that me and the keyboard player from the previous band put together from ground zero. It will be interesting
Members Outkaster Posted February 5, 2006 Author Members Posted February 5, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Believe it. Part of it is age: I'm 50. Let's face it, I'm not going to draw a crowd of 22 year olds; it was always more like 40-60. And guys my age who I would draw are home watching their 50 inch TVs or motorcycling for the weekend or off on weekend getaways or have the grandkids for the weekend, and in any case are in bed by 11 or so. They don't drink as much as they used to, so even when they come out as a large group, they usually only have a couple of drinks and leave early.I can identify with losing your following. At one point here, I was covering a 1200 mile diameter, I opened for a lot of big concerts here, did a lot of high profile festivals, had 4 CDs, got national press, bla bla bla. I'm not saying this to blow my horn, I'm telling you to make a point: When I decided to lay it down due to burnout (it was only going to be for a few months initially), all the hundreds of fans I thought I had here were mostly in my imagination. Not one person, NOT ONE, ever called me to find out where I was playing, or why I wasn't. It's been over a year and a half now, and no one has called at all. Not even any musician friends, which is the hardest to take. But it also is a good reminder that it is easy to overestimate your own importance while people are slapping you on the back telling you how great you are and wanting you to autograph this or that or get their picture taken with you. But reality is another matter entirely. In truth, you really aren't that important to people. You're nothing more than a temporary diversion from their lives. That's why I am so amused here that guys take themselves so seriously about promoting their band and making banners and websites and bla bla bla. In the end, it's pretty much pointless, because it will never be enough. The fact is people may remember your name or they may not, but in either case, they don't care. You're just another commodity in the market place. Part of it is the number of bands: today, every swinging dick with a guitar and 6 months of lessons is making a cd. Because they have a CD, they feel the need to promote it, and to promote it in a cluttered market, they have to be willing to go play for free in order to get on stage, so they can promote a cd that is just one out of a million trying to be sold for little to no money. Because there are so many bands, they will put 4 or 5 on a bill, so each band only needs to know 12 songs or so. In some places they have to pay to play, in other words sell a minimum number of tickets that they have to buy in advance from the club and sell to get their money back, which they almost never do. Part of it is the competition for entertainment dollars-home theaters, cineplexes, instant music available form satellite and computers, 500 channels on tv, and so on. When I was a young man, I played 6 nights a week, and bands that couldn't play six nights a week four hours a night (5 in Oregon and 6 in Alaska) didn't get the good gigs and had to play in crappy little bars that couldn't draw a crowd. Because there was such a demand for bands who could travel, you could make a good living (500/week and rooms in 1980 dollars) And everyone went to the bar to see bands, since TV had like 13 channels, there were no personal computers, no DVD, no bigscreen TVs and a multiplex had 4 theaters.Part of it is the social stigma attached to drinking and driving (deservedly so), and the resultant crackdown by police and the implementation of lower blood alcohol levels to be considered legally impaired.And a lot of it is the bar business itself: looking at it from a barowner's standpoint (I'm not one, but I know several), what they see is the overhead continuing to rise: Employee costs, liability insurance, utilities like electic, water, gas and trash; proprerty taxes, sales tax, liquor tax, price increases from vendors, maintenance, and so on. Yet there is only so much they can charge for a drink to cover costs, which means they have to rely on volume rather than price to sell drinks, which means that if you can't draw a crowd that will spend money, you won't do them any good. Many is the time I've felt good about a night because the place is packed, but at the end of the night, it is the till, not the headcount, that tells the story. I've had other nights when the place was moderately full but the till was through the ceiling. Why?Answer: Too many bands rely on drawing a big crowd, and see it as the object. But in reality, the object is to make the cash register ring. If the crowd is too big, it actually hinders sales and hinders turnover, because newer people won't come in if there isn't anywhere to sit, and if people can't get to the bar and the waitress can't get through the crowd quickly, the bar loses sales.Instead of selling how many people you can bring in, try selling how much money you can bring in. THAT is what gets you gigs.Sorry for the bloviating but it's therapy for me! Good points. I never really thought of us as people that had to be patted on the back but more that we are a way for people to forget about problems. Like you said a temporary diversion. We did a lot of moderate traveling all over NY State and some huge shows. It was good times and we were not that much younger but together since 1996 then. In other words it was not that long ago. Currently our girl singer is 25. The rest of us are are 38, 41 ,46, and 47. Now 4 years later it seems we were trying to get that crowd again with some of the same guy's that played with me before and it (crowd) is just not there. One of the clubs where we used to do great Wednesday nights is thinking of pulling the Thursday nights we have now. They have to pay employees and the gas and electric and I can understand it. We alternate with another band everyother Thursday and they are in the same boat. It is really so much legwork to go through. Website maintenance, radio spots, and interviews. It never seems like it is enough. It is unbelievable and it is not like we are not trying.
Members SanDiego333 Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Part of it is the number of bands: today, every swinging dick with a guitar and 6 months of lessons is making a cd. Because they have a CD, they feel the need to promote it, and to promote it in a cluttered market, they have to be willing to go play for free in order to get on stage, so they can promote a cd that is just one out of a million trying to be sold for little to no money. Because there are so many bands, they will put 4 or 5 on a bill, so each band only needs to know 12 songs or so. In some places they have to pay to play, in other words sell a minimum number of tickets that they have to buy in advance from the club and sell to get their money back, which they almost never do. And there it is in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen. Reality can suck, but ya gotta face it. 30,000 people run the NY marathon and ya get two winners - a guy and a girl. Now how many bands do you know of just in your town...county...state....region of the country...the USA...North America...Central America...Europe...and on and on and on. Yeah, I know...I'm a buzz kill this morning!
Members Outkaster Posted February 5, 2006 Author Members Posted February 5, 2006 Originally posted by SanDiego333 And there it is in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen. Reality can suck, but ya gotta face it. 30,000 people run the NY marathon and ya get two winners - a guy and a girl. Now how many bands do you know of just in your town...county...state....region of the country...the USA...North America...Central America...Europe...and on and on and on. Yeah, I know...I'm a buzz kill this morning! That is not really the point.
Members Kevin T Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 BlueStrat Kudos, This is the best most concise summary of what I've seen on the NW NJ cover scene for the last 15 years. BTW are you the same guy from NJ? I'm currently in 4 P/T bands and I play far less than I did 15 yrs ago in just one reasonbly popular weekend cover band Kevin T Originally posted by BlueStrat Believe it. Part of it is age: I'm 50. Let's face it, I'm not going to draw a crowd of 22 year olds; it was always more like 40-60. And guys my age who I would draw are home watching their 50 inch TVs or motorcycling for the weekend or off on weekend getaways or have the grandkids for the weekend, and in any case are in bed by 11 or so. They don't drink as much as they used to, so even when they come out as a large group, they usually only have a couple of drinks and leave early. snip
Members SanDiego333 Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 Originally posted by Outkaster That is not relaly the point. Well, it "really" was my point, though. A good attitude helps too.
Members Lee Flier Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 Too funny, my gigging experience pretty much line for line parallels BlueStrat's - and it sounds like we played some of the same places too. But yes, unfortunately it IS a nationwide phenomenon. Club attendance is down for various reasons, gigs are hard to come by and the pay sucks, and it's very discouraging trying to get and promote gigs compared with how it used to be. 9/11 seems to have been the turning point. Since then, if you weren't an established band who already had built a following before then, it's been a bitch.
Members worthyjoe Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 The smoking ban has had an impact in MA and CT. I never really thought it would deter people from going out but it does to an extent. On top of that, in the warmer months, it seems like 50% of the crowd is always outside smoking or with people who are smoking. I like the fact that my voice is no longer hoarse the next day but I think I'd rather have the crowd. It sucks.
Members Blackwatch Posted February 5, 2006 Members Posted February 5, 2006 Bluestrat is right on. But I do see a resurgence of acoustic style gigs. I think some are getting tired of really loud music, and I think club owners see that they can get music for less money by hiring a 3 peice band, and they fit on smaller stages. I have a two piece doing acoustic style blues, jazz, and sing/songwriter originals and I can work every weekend if I keep organized.(which I haven't been lately). As far as dealing with club owners...try doing your business during the week instead of Saturday night when they got a million things going on.
Members Cortfan Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 BlueStrat hit the nail on the head. May I add the K word, also? Karaoke. Our classic rock/country/blues cover band plays at one club where we turn the crowd on Wednesday night into a Friday night bar revenue, and on Fridays, we pack the place with 2 turnovers. Our demographic is baby boomers/bikers. We are booked there thru 2006. They sometimes pay us an extra $100 for an hour after closing time. They have to lock the door and call it a private party. I hope this bar can stay in business. Several others have gone out of business.
Members BlueStrat Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by Blackwatch Bluestrat is right on. But I do see a resurgence of acoustic style gigs. I think some are getting tired of really loud music, and I think club owners see that they can get music for less money by hiring a 3 peice band, and they fit on smaller stages. I have a two piece doing acoustic style blues, jazz, and sing/songwriter originals and I can work every weekend if I keep organized.(which I haven't been lately). As far as dealing with club owners...try doing your business during the week instead of Saturday night when they got a million things going on. Yup, acoustic solos and duos are becoming a more viable alternative for venues. And with "band in a can" type amps and rhythm boxes, a guy can actually play some electric once in awhile, too.
Members Outkaster Posted February 6, 2006 Author Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by SanDiego333 Well, it "really" was my point, though. A good attitude helps too. Yeah but what you wrote is obvious. It has nothing to do with good or bad attitude I was saying that gigs are hard to come by.
Members Psychotronic Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 I can't even get a band together anymore, because the decent players know that even if you get a good band together and take a few months to work out sets, there are no/few gigs to be had when you're ready to go out and play. Very frustrating... I may have to accept that my gigging days may be over.
Members Nazman06 Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by Psychotronic I can't even get a band together anymore, because the decent players know that even if you get a good band together and take a few months to work out sets, there are no/few gigs to be had when you're ready to go out and play. Very frustrating... I may have to accept that my gigging days may be over. I am almost there too..The clubs are putting pressure on to bring people..But {censored}, I cant force people to come to the shows. I have pretty much had enough..
Members rhat Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Yup, acoustic solos and duos are becoming a more viable alternative for venues. And with "band in a can" type amps and rhythm boxes, a guy can actually play some electric once in awhile, too. Face it ,, its all about costs ..... they have a band budget. two guys can spit the money or it can go five ways. a couple guys who can sing and play ,, can sound pretty good even without side men ..... I think what it comes down to is the singers are pretty well just teaming up wiht another singer and making more for less hassle. Keeping a full band together is alot tougher than doing a solo or duo act. DJs have taken the reception jobs,,, the bar patrons like keroke because they get to be the show , even if there is really only a few in the crowd that are actually good singers .....I think as the boombers retire you will se more bands ,,,, but i doubt you will see more money....... I think it takes an outstanding band to keep regular work these days .....you dont find too many ,, and when you do it always seems to be old guys playing in them .......rat
Members bonscottvocals Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 rhat, that's why we have a guy who plays through a guitar synth. We do horn-based tunes, and we don't even had a keyboardist, much less a horn player. All of our keys/horns sounds come from the Roland synth. All 4 of us are expected to be musicians so that we can keep our costs down and improve the effectiveness of the band. Bluestrat is dead on with his posts. There are so many people who think that a few power chords, a vocalist, a drummer, and a bassist who can play root notes is good enough for a gig. They're willing to take a couple hundred $'s less than you to get a gig and be heard by their girl-friends and moms. Many of these bands don't even play more than a few gigs before they pack it in. It's cheaper for a small club to hire a band like this, and they come a dime-a-dozen. I'm not in an originals band, so the whole 'sharing' thing doesn't happen often, so we're expected to have a different set list than last week's band. You've got to have a hook, and it's got to have a draw. I'm in Upstate NY as well, and yes, it's getting harder. You have the drinking laws, smoking bans, etc... It's getting tough these days, and it all goes back to the list that Bluestrat gave.
Members miles to go Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Does anyone think this is related to the aging of the population? 20-30 years ago, the Baby Boomers were likely hanging out in clubs and bars a lot more than today. The next generation isn't as concentrated (age-wise) and grew up with all of the other entertainment outlets. What about a little more historical perspective? What was the live music scene like in the 50's or before? Are we in a slump now, or are we comparing to a time when the market was at a peak?
Members bonscottvocals Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Good point, milestogo. In the 80's, we used to club-hop all the time, looking for cool dj's and bands. I don't know if that's what the 20-somethings are doing now. Shoot, it was nothing for me to go to 3 clubs and pay covers at every door and have all 3 stamps on my hands so I could go back and forth. There are so many things that have changed. The drinking/driving laws is not the least of it. Price of gas, cost of drinks, etc...
Members DonaldDemon Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Believe it... *siiiiiiiiighhhhhhhh* Sad but {censored}ing true. I have been thinking about this alot lately and have been getting discouraged. My original band takes so much effort and money with really nothing to show for it. On top of that it seems like the most contrived trendy bands get all the play and we eat {censored}. If I didn't love playing music so much I would have given up by now and I'm only 27.
Members miles to go Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Yup, acoustic solos and duos are becoming a more viable alternative for venues. And with "band in a can" type amps and rhythm boxes, a guy can actually play some electric once in awhile, too. As a rhythm section guy, this doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Funny, I always said it was great being a bass player because I was always in demand. But now I've started to re-evaluate my priorities. I've started taking voice lessons and I'm spending more time focusing on my guitar and piano chops. This is mostly out of frustration with my current band situation. But the changing market conditions have a lot to do with that.
Members LateGreats Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by miles to go As a rhythm section guy, this doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Funny, I always said it was great being a bass player because I was always in demand. But now I've started to re-evaluate my priorities. I've started taking voice lessons and I'm spending more time focusing on my guitar and piano chops. This is mostly out of frustration with my current band situation. But the changing market conditions have a lot to do with that. And here I took up the bass 'cause I couldn't get a singing gig! D'oh! I still hold out hope that I can put a decent original project together, but hope is fading fast. And if I got something together, where would we play? Plus the kind of music I'd like to do is nowhere to be found around here, mostly because no one is all that interested in it around here. This part of the world is such a narrow-minded little conclave that I've reached the breaking point music-wise. It's good, in a way, to know that I'm not the only one struggling.
Members rhat Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 Originally posted by bonscottvocals rhat, that's why we have a guy who plays through a guitar synth. We do horn-based tunes, and we don't even had a keyboardist, much less a horn player. All of our keys/horns sounds come from the Roland synth. All 4 of us are expected to be musicians so that we can keep our costs down and improve the effectiveness of the band.Bluestrat is dead on with his posts. There are so many people who think that a few power chords, a vocalist, a drummer, and a bassist who can play root notes is good enough for a gig. They're willing to take a couple hundred $'s less than you to get a gig and be heard by their girl-friends and moms. Many of these bands don't even play more than a few gigs before they pack it in. It's cheaper for a small club to hire a band like this, and they come a dime-a-dozen.I'm not in an originals band, so the whole 'sharing' thing doesn't happen often, so we're expected to have a different set list than last week's band. You've got to have a hook, and it's got to have a draw.I'm in Upstate NY as well, and yes, it's getting harder. You have the drinking laws, smoking bans, etc... It's getting tough these days, and it all goes back to the list that Bluestrat gave. Sorry as a keyboard player ,,, The think i was never thilled about modern keyboard ability to sound like other instruments, and now the problem has moved to guitars lol. Hell if you want horns ,,, get real horns. A talented band will aways find work ,,, your money may vary. I think what you are saying is that therea are a lot of crappy bands playing today ..... there have always been crappy bands .....the problem now is that DJs are taking their work. I think alot of used to be boomber rockers will start playing again ,,, even if its only on a socal for fun basis ..... If they are good ,, pick the right songs ,, there will be work. The key to working is following the demographics and the money ..... folks that means playing old songs and country. Your typical boomer doesnt know one metal band from another ....its basically just noise to their ears .... now that might not fit your style, which is cool ..... but dont complain when you starve. The place where i see the most live entertainment is the biker venues ...... the rubs like live music and they like music they recognize. We are just now comming into a period of time where the boomers will retire ,, they will have time and cash on hand ,,, thats a golden ring for live entertainment .....but you have to play what they want to listen to.......If its below your artistic principals ....you will have that. Nothing is worse than watching a really talented band just not connect with people because they dont realize that they are playing music that the peeps dont recognize or like. For me there is a giant black hole from the 80s to the invent of modern hot country ......I pretty well dropped out of even listening to music ..... i would guess i am not alone. rat
Members bonscottvocals Posted February 6, 2006 Members Posted February 6, 2006 rhat, the problems with having a horn section come with having to pay them and use them. I might do 10 songs or so that have a horn sound, yet I've got 47 songs on my set list. Do I pay 3 guys to stand around for 37 songs? I agree that the sound is not as true, but for small clubs where space, cash, and gigs are tight, the solution is to keep the band size as low as possible while keeping the sound good for the crowd. Also, you should see the looks on people's faces when they hear piano, organ, sax, or a horn section, then they finally figure out that it's a guitar player doing it. They freak, seriously. It's a gimmick, but every little bit helps.
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