Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Not really looking for answers here, just need to bitch.... Maybe its because I'm ass deep in band taxes that I can't seem to figure out, maybe its because I'm fighting off a cold AGAIN, maybe its because my regular job annoys me and we're off this weekend... whatever the case, I'm in a frustrating mental place at the moment. Most of you have seen me and two of my other bandfolks yap on around these parts about our band, so I'll spare you all the details again. We're all very proud of what we do, and all indications seem to be that the view from the outside says we're quite good at it. So why is it that its like pulling {censored}in teeth to get somewhere sometimes? I don't mean getting gigs that keep the bank account happy, we have enough of those. I'm talkin about gigs/promoters/booking agencies/etc that can provide us with the "real" opportunities. I'm freakin convinced that if we're put in the right situations, we can win them over. I know every band feels like they're the greatest thing since downloadable porn, but I try to be honest with myself. Thing is, I knew we had something special here as soon as we wrote our first song, before anyone knew we existed. Now, I know the music business is all about money. Nobody in the biz aside from the artists themselves gives two {censored}s about the music, they care about $$$. Its all about marketability. And that there is another headache... cause I feel like we're a completely marketable bunch. Do we have it all figured out? Hell no, but the foundations are all in place. I dunno, just ranting really. Just had another "oportunity" turn back into a pumpkin. I always try to keep a level head, remain skeptical even. But it still sucks when it falls apart, even though you had a feeling it would in the first place. The highs n lows of band life are dicking with me today I guess.
Members fastplant Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Are you in an original band? And if so, how are your crowds?
Members bonscottvocals Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 I'm only guessing, but I think he's in the band TK421. I used my crystal ball, and I looked at his signature.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by fastplant Are you in an original band? And if so, how are your crowds? Yeah, but we do about 50/50 originals to covers. Crowds are usually pretty kickin. We've built a good loyal fanbase in an area where coverbands rule supreme. Kinda carved our own niche. Just seems like we can't break out of the circle of gigs that we already have. I'm very thankful for all that, but its getting us nowhere.
Members fastplant Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 Yeah, but we do about 50/50 originals to covers. Crowds are usually pretty kickin. We've built a good loyal fanbase in an area where coverbands rule supreme. Kinda carved our own niche.Just seems like we can't break out of the circle of gigs that we already have. I'm very thankful for all that, but its getting us nowhere. Is it possible you're being labeled as a cover band when you want to make it with originals? Maybe you should start shifting the focus to all originals. If you keep the fan baseit could work out for you. The way I see it, the only bands that are making it on their own are the ones who can pack very large venues consistantly while only playing originals.
Members bonscottvocals Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by fastplant The way I see it, the only bands that are making it on their own are the ones who can pack very large venues consistantly while only playing originals. Agreed, the only other types of 'touring' bands that are making money are tributes. You don't have to completely drop your covers, but you should be closer to all originals with maybe a sprinkling of fav covers you absolutely love.
Members FlogRock Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 It sucks that even when you've done everything you can do, and have your {censored} together, you still have to wait for the right opportunities... No matter how good you are and how hard you work, there are some things you can't control. But when you're doing everything you can do, there's no sense in getting frustrated, just enjoy where you are now... Being successful with an original band, having enough gigs, actually making money with it, no nut cases in the band (well I don't know about the drummer, he rarely checks in )... I wish I had a band like that...
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by fastplant Is it possible you're being labeled as a cover band when you want to make it with originals? Maybe you should start shifting the focus to all originals. If you keep the fan baseit could work out for you.The way I see it, the only bands that are making it on their own are the ones who can pack very large venues consistantly while only playing originals. I'd love to do that. In fact we have done several deals in which we did about 90% original and just did a few "special" covers. Problem is that it seems the clubs that are willing to do that want to stick you with four other bands and won't pay for {censored}. We're not tryin to get rich, but some of these deals are just plain insulting. Example: We headlined a gig in NC bout a year and a half ago at a club pretty reknowned for national rock acts. Had two local opening bands. They brought about 12 people total between them. We drew over 100... from out of state. The pay was split even three ways (club wouldn't do it any other way, and we saw the gig as an "opportunity" so we took it) and by the end of the night, the two opening bands had $150 each for a 45 minute set and no expenses. We played for an hour 45 and were ass deep in the red. I'm all about taking a hit to further the band, but we can only take so many of those before we're bankrupt.
Members fastplant Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 I'd love to do that. In fact we have done several deals in which we did about 90% original and just did a few "special" covers. Problem is that it seems the clubs that are willing to do that want to stick you with four other bands and won't pay for {censored}. We're not tryin to get rich, but some of these deals are just plain insulting.Example: We headlined a gig in NC bout a year and a half ago at a club pretty reknowned for national rock acts. Had two local opening bands. They brought about 12 people total between them. We drew over 100... from out of state. The pay was split even three ways (club wouldn't do it any other way, and we saw the gig as an "opportunity" so we took it) and by the end of the night, the two opening bands had $150 each for a 45 minute set and no expenses. We played for an hour 45 and were ass deep in the red.I'm all about taking a hit to further the band, but we can only take so many of those before we're bankrupt. Well, that's the thing, you need to sacrifice quite a bit if you want to make it. You have to take all those gigs that don't pay. Basically, you need to play as often as possible, take every gig offered and try to build a massive fan base, then things will start coming to you. Otherwise, you can't expect people to just offer you stuff because you're "good." No one in the position to offer you something cares how good you are.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by FlogRock It sucks that even when you've done everything you can do, and have your {censored} together, you still have to wait for the right opportunities... No matter how good you are and how hard you work, there are some things you can't control. But when you're doing everything you can do, there's no sense in getting frustrated, just enjoy where you are now... Being successful with an original band, having enough gigs, actually making money with it, no nut cases in the band (well I don't know about the drummer, he rarely checks in )... I wish I had a band like that... You make a very good point. I love the guys, and that does help me keep my sanity to a certain extent. On the flip side though, that great chemistry and friendship also helps fuel the frustrations some, cause I know I'll never have something like this again.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by fastplant Well, that's the thing, you need to sacrifice quite a bit if you want to make it. You have to take all those gigs that don't pay. Basically, you need to play as often as possible, take every gig offered and try to build a massive fan base, then things will start coming to you. Otherwise, you can't expect people to just offer you stuff because you're "good." No one in the position to offer you something cares how good you are. Yeah there's the catch. Its a long story involving age, family obligations, and long distance commutes. Suffice to say, the risks are far greater than they used to be. Not sayin we haven't considered that leap of faith, or wouldn't take it... but thats a tough jump to make.
Members fastplant Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 Yeah there's the catch. Its a long story involving age, family obligations, and long distance commutes. Suffice to say, the risks are far greater than they used to be. Not sayin we haven't considered that leap of faith, or wouldn't take it... but thats a tough jump to make. Yeah I hear you, it's just a shame, because I know so many talented musicians who probably could make it if they were able to play more than one show every four months. I firmly believe that most musicians can make at least nominal fame if they put every ounce of effort into doing so. I see alot of people complaining that they haven't made it yet, but they are also not doing nearly enough work. You really have to be working on making it every waking minute. That said, it sounds like you are doing a fair amount of work, but sadly the business doesn't allow for less than 100% commitment unless you know someone.
Members THBv2.0 Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 The highs n lows of band life are dicking with me today I guess. I'm tryin' to do my part. I'll buy another CD if it'll make you feel better. Amigo, I have the same frustrations. We get a booking once a month (usually) at a quality place, still have to play covers and make a little more than we do at the dives. We got a shot at one of the top music venues in town, they all loved us and now I can't get the booking agent to return an Email. It more often than not feels like a losing battle, but your band has all the pieces in place and just needs to be seen by a rep from a label that deals with your style of music. Hang in there.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THBv2.0 I'm tryin' to do my part. I'll buy another CD if it'll make you feel better. Amigo, I have the same frustrations. We get a booking once a month (usually) at a quality place, still have to play covers and make a little more than we do at the dives. We got a shot at one of the top music venues in town, they all loved us and now I can't get the booking agent to return an Email. It more often than not feels like a losing battle, but your band has all the pieces in place and just needs to be seen by a rep from a label that deals with your style of music. Hang in there. I know you are Homie, and I do appreciate that. Its funny you mention not gettin the time of day from a venue after everyone there has stopped just short of giving you a total suckoff. That boggles my mind.
Members Kevin T Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 I don't understand why they had no expenses and yours were bankrupting you! did you supply a rented PA/sound/lights. Origs never pay youre in it for R&R glory the golden carrot of getting signed, no? Now you see why orig band s hate cover band so much Kevin T Originally posted by THX1138 I'd love to do that. In fact we have done several deals in which we did about 90% original and just did a few "special" covers. Problem is that it seems the clubs that are willing to do that want to stick you with four other bands and won't pay for {censored}. We're not tryin to get rich, but some of these deals are just plain insulting.Example: We headlined a gig in NC bout a year and a half ago at a club pretty reknowned for national rock acts. Had two local opening bands. They brought about 12 people total between them. We drew over 100... from out of state. The pay was split even three ways (club wouldn't do it any other way, and we saw the gig as an "opportunity" so we took it) and by the end of the night, the two opening bands had $150 each for a 45 minute set and no expenses. We played for an hour 45 and were ass deep in the red.I'm all about taking a hit to further the band, but we can only take so many of those before we're bankrupt.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Kevin T I don't understand why they had no expenses and yours were bankrupting you! did you supply a rented PA/sound/lights. Origs never pay youre in it for R&R glory the golden carrot of getting signed, no? Now you see why orig band s hate cover band so muchKevin T They were local, we were out of state. Gas + 3 motel rooms for us, no overhead for them. Plus since we were the headliner, our soundman ran the show, all three bands - also out of our pocket. Sound system was provided by the club - although they took $300 off the top to pay for "rental of the system"... like we had a choice. Our normal pay is very good for being original around here. This is why I hate those multiband shows. And for the record, I don't hate cover bands at all.
Members squealie Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Just to air our dirty panties in public..... I got some old feelers working again. We might have to travel a little for no dough....but in a real 'foot in the door' kinda way. Go RAVENS.
Moderators BATCAT Posted February 10, 2006 Moderators Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 I'd love to do that. In fact we have done several deals in which we did about 90% original and just did a few "special" covers. Problem is that it seems the clubs that are willing to do that want to stick you with four other bands and won't pay for {censored}. We're not tryin to get rich, but some of these deals are just plain insulting.Example: We headlined a gig in NC bout a year and a half ago at a club pretty reknowned for national rock acts. Had two local opening bands. They brought about 12 people total between them. We drew over 100... from out of state. The pay was split even three ways (club wouldn't do it any other way, and we saw the gig as an "opportunity" so we took it) and by the end of the night, the two opening bands had $150 each for a 45 minute set and no expenses. We played for an hour 45 and were ass deep in the red.I'm all about taking a hit to further the band, but we can only take so many of those before we're bankrupt. If I'm understanding your posts right, then IMHO you are confused about what to expect as a original band without serious label support. In my city, my band is generally acknowledged to be fairly popular and respected within our genre/scene. People ask me, not infrequently, if we've quit our day jobs. Which is funny. (we all pretty much work 9-5) So, we're about to put our our third full-length album, we get some decent airplay when something new comes out, and our last CD release show sold out a fairly decent-sized venue. Yeah, I know, horray for us. The thing is this: We've been at this over six years, doing small tours whenever possible, with everyone making the band a priority. ALL the band profits go back into the band. A lot of traveling expenses, studio time etc isn't even paid for with band profits, it's paid by US, out of our paychecks. None of us have ever, ever seen a cent personally. The collective band fund has typically been from one to three thousand dollars debt. The few times we've been even have been consideded major sucesses. Get used to the kind of pay situation you mentioned. It happens a lot. As for "real" opportunities, more often than not, YOU have to make them. Once you've done this, people will approach you. Maybe.
Members wheresgrant3 Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 I can relate to everything you say because I've been there and maybe there right now. I guess playing in a 50/50 cover/original band, you have to decide what is more immediately important to you. Unfortunately geography plays a cruel role. If you were based in LA, arms reach of every A&R rep, maybe the monetary frustrations wouldn't hurt as bad... ( although given the cost of living in LA maybe it would hurt more!). I follow your posts on here and have been to your website enough to believe in most any market you probably class A material. I guess you need to really find some way to break out of the current list of clubs you are playing... the problem is really, are the clubs you are playing A list to begin with? To get better clubs means to get in a better market... and short of moving there that means travel or touring. Can I make a suggestion? Just a consideration. It's no fun playing in a band and managing it at the same time. You really should get someone to manage all that crap for you. Someone you can all trust... as a 5th (or 6th) members of the band who handles all of the business. Many people would balk at paying someone who doesn't play a single note, however I will attest it has been the best, most professional thing I have ever experienced in play in live bands. I'm not talking about a booking agent or a fan boy who runs a street team. I'm talking about someone who could literally be considered the silent member of the band. 3 years ago, when we first started we struggled along with the rest of the local bands scrounging for gigs. We made a decision early on to add a manager to help handle the business side of running the band. He's an ex drummer and someone fellow musician who has been sidelined with a permanent shoulder injury... so he knows what our band is about. He handles all the bookings, marketing and promotions. Of course we all help, however, he organizes and manages everything... and he does an excellent job at it. Since we've added him to the mix, we've more than doubled our local pay, attained a beverage and local radio sponsorship, increased our draw 10X fold and gotten the attention of clubs and promoters from out of the local area. He handled getting our press kit together, booking studio recording time, arranged a photo shoot. He works with the local radio station on promotional events and other types of press. And it only happened when we gave him the free reign to do it. His job is to book and promote the band. Our job is to show up and play. I've never been so pleased with the way things are handled in my current band and I connect it to the fact that there is someone involved who is not playing the music. He has the time, energy and motivation to keep this band moving forward. Not all of us can balance all of that and still have fun playing the music. It may feel uncomfortable to give up some of the reigns of running the band to someone who doesn't squeek out a single note, but I am telling you that just having an extra pair of hands at shows to load in, and voice on the phone talking to promoters will pay off in spades. In a band full of 5 different strong personalities, we needed a sixth to get the head screwed on straight so the body could move forward. We have 5 players and split our pay 6 ways. It's in his vested interest to get us better pay as his $$$ take improves. We love him because it's his job to interface with the club owners.... the club owners love him because he gets to interface with the band. Things a manager/promoter can help you do (that would take hours of playing time to accomplish: Working with current club owners on establishing a gaurantee (if you don't already have one).Negotiating with new club owners on terms of pay.Promoting shows to fans and clubs.Contacting record companies and booking showcasesCreating press opportunities and working with media outlets to create buzz.... You might say "Hey, but I do all that?" .... still wouldn't it be great to have someone doing that while you practice, write new material and play your hearts out on stage.
Members BlueStrat Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Not to rain on your parade, T, but there is a possibility that what you're doing is a good as it gets. I mean, think about it: You have a good band, you're drawing good crowds, you're making decent money. If all you're missing is wider recognition, well....there'as a huge price to pay for that, and you have to decide if it's worth it. One, you already mentioned-splitting bills for no money. You just can't keep a band on the road that way for very long. Two, it's not a family-friendly business, so if you have a wife and/or kids, statistics show that you won't for very long, because to be a working road band, you have to look at being on the road about 280-300 days a year. You know that old saying, "You can have it all!"? It's bull{censored}. Out of all the road musicians I know, only a couple are still married, and one is pretty shaky. Three, even if you do achieve some level of success in a wider area, there are many levels you have to go through. Sure, once in a blue moon, someone gets heard by so and so with Pie In The Sky Records, and they go straight from some {censored}ty dive bar to getting a 3 record deal and going on a world tour opening for U2. But that almost never happens. Instead, you move to the next level of bigger clubs and small festivals with {censored}ty time slots and openers for 2nd-tier concerts acts, only now they're 500 miles from home. And as soon as you start getting noticed at that level, the next one is waiting, and- you guessed it- you're at the bottom again, starting over, eating the same old {censored}, only even farther from home for longer periods of time. This is what I ran into. And all along the way there is no shortage of other bands willing to cut your throat to get ahead of you in line, and the further up the food chain you go, people who think if you have even the slightest potential to earn money come out of the woodwork to try to get some of it. And four, the business is so crowded with entertainment of all varieties that the shelf life of a band who makes it these days is pretty short. I mean, where are bands like Third Eye Blind and Bush and Puddle of Mudd, and any number of other bands who had hit records? they got their 15 minutes, and now they're pretty much done. I mentioned in another thread that the weird guy from Flock of Seagulls is programming computers now. Seems after being a world-touring best selling band in the 80s, they're all broke and have to go to work and make a living. I guess what I'm saying is that I learned that making good music with people I like and respect , and having people here who want to hear it, is enough for me. "Making it" as defined by the industry is beside the point of playing music. I don't need to be a household name, and frankly, I'm not willing to sacrifice what I have just to have something as empty as that.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 I can relate to everything you say because I've been there and maybe there right now. I guess playing in a 50/50 cover/original band, you have to decide what is more immediately important to you. Unfortunately geography plays a cruel role. If you were based in LA, arms reach of every A&R rep, maybe the monetary frustrations wouldn't be as great, however LA has a whole nuther bag of problems to think about. I follow your posts on here and have been to your website to know in most any market you probably class A material. I guess you need to really find some way to break out of the current list of clubs you are playing... the problem is probably the clubs you are playing are generally A list locally? Can I make a suggestion? It's no fun playing in a band and managing it at the same time. You really should get someone to manage all that crap for you. Someone you can all trust... as a 5th (or 6th) members of the band who handles all of the business. Many people would balk at paying someone who doesn't play a single note, however I will attest it has been the best, most professional thing I have ever experienced in play in live bands. I'm not talking about a booking agent or a fan boy who runs a street team. I'm talking about someone who could literally be considered the silent member of the band. 3 years ago, when we first started we struggled along with the rest of the local bands scrounging for gigs. We made a decision early on to add a manager to help handle the business side of running the band. He's an ex drummer and someone fellow musician who has been sidelined with a permanent shoulder injury... so he knows what our band is about. He handles all the bookings, marketing and promotions. Of course we all help, however, he organizes and manages everything... and he does an excellent job at it. Since we've added him to the mix, we've more than doubled our local pay, attained a beverage and local radio sponsorship, increased our draw 10X fold and gotten the attention of clubs and promoters from out of the local area. He handled getting our press kit together, booking studio recording time, arranged a photo shoot. He works with the local radio station on promotional events and other types of press. And it only happened when we gave him the free reign to do it. His job is to book and promote the band. Our job is to show up and play. I've never been so pleased with the way things are handled in my current band and I connect it to the fact that there is someone involved who is not playing the music. He has the time, energy and motivation to keep this band moving forward. Not all of us can balance all of that and still have fun playing the music.It may feel uncomfortable to give up some of the reigns of running the band to someone who doesn't squeek out a single note, but I am telling you that just having an extra pair of hands at shows to load in, and voice on the phone talking to promoters will pay off in spades. In a band full of 5 different strong personalities, we needed a sixth to get the head screwed on straight so the body could move forward. We have 5 players and split our pay 6 ways. It's in his vested interest to get us better pay as his $$$ take improves. It's in his vested interest to keep us happy with better rooms because the better the room, the better we play and it just makes his job easier selling us to the next club or promoter. Grant my friend, damn if you didn't nail it straight down the center. I would give my left nut, and free blowjobs for a year to be able to hand over the business side of things. I do it because I love what we are and I desperately want to see it succeed, but to be quite honest, its sucking the life out of me. I just want to be the bass player again. Problem A) is that I'm a bit of a control freak. I don't mean to be, but some things just HAVE to get done and if I do it, I know it gets done. (No slam meant to my TK brethren here btw, it ain't nuthin ya'll haven't already agreed with me on). Problem B) is that I can't seem to find that person. It takes a special soul to not only take all that on, but also have the business sense and connections to make it work. I'm just in a defeated kinda mood today. Everything is pissin me off. Don't mind me.
Members THX1138 Posted February 10, 2006 Author Members Posted February 10, 2006 Blue Strat - I hear what you're sayin and understand completely. What you described is the same reasons I got out of the touring coverband I was in 10 years ago. I found myself wanting to be home more than being away. It had become just another job. I knew then, it was time to get out. Never thought I'd play again after that. Then this pack of idiots comes along and changes my entire mindset. I don't neccesarily want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with this band as far as the exhaulted record deal goes. But if we could get to a self sufficient point whereby we are able to truck along and make a living out of it on our own terms... I know, tall order. But I'm convinced it could be done.
Members wheresgrant3 Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 Grant my friend, damn if you didn't nail it straight down the center. I would give my left nut, and free blowjobs for a year to be able to hand over the business side of things. I do it because I love what we are and I desperately want to see it succeed, but to be quite honest, its sucking the life out of me. I just want to be the bass player again. Problem A) is that I'm a bit of a control freak. I don't mean to be, but some things just HAVE to get done and if I do it, I know it gets done. (No slam meant to my TK brethren here btw, it ain't nuthin ya'll haven't already agreed with me on). Problem B) is that I can't seem to find that person. It takes a special soul to not only take all that on, but also have the business sense and connections to make it work. I'm just in a defeated kinda mood today. Everything is pissin me off. Don't mind me. No problem dude! I've been been. {censored} man... I ran a successful local cover band that was named after me ("Where's Grant?") that went from the basement to one of the most consistent draws around. It was tough for me and other members of this band who had their hands in the pie, to step back and let someone handle all of the business. My current band is all cover.... purely money making venture. Most musicans would balk at sharing pay with someone who doesn't even play a note. It really does take someone special. Our guy is a musician, and carpenter by trade however I could see him being a really effective business manager. He's a great communicator, organized, easy to deal with and takes initiative. We're great friends with him and I think we originally wanted to add him because he's so cool... but as a player we had no room for him. So we made him the manager!
Members BlueStrat Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by THX1138 Blue Strat - I hear what you're sayin and understand completely. What you described is the same reasons I got out of the touring coverband I was in 10 years ago. I found myself wanting to be home more than being away. It had become just another job. I knew then, it was time to get out.Never thought I'd play again after that. Then this pack of idiots comes along and changes my entire mindset.I don't neccesarily want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow with this band as far as the exhaulted record deal goes. But if we could get to a self sufficient point whereby we are able to truck along and make a living out of it on our own terms...I know, tall order. But I'm convinced it could be done. It could be done, but is it likely? And what will you retire on when you're old? I had to think about that, since I'm now a geezer. My wife has a good retirement program with her job, but even so, I'm thinking it's going to cost 100 k a year to live when we retire. Not trying to talk you out of the dream, just making sure you've thought of all the angles. I wish I would have worked my ass off and gotten my degree (Advertising design) and made lots of investments when i was young (like my dad tried to tell me to do) instead of living for today. I'd be pretty much set now and I could do whatever I wanted to. I'm trying to tellmy kids that. Think they'll listen? Not a chance. Well, one, maybe.
Members wheresgrant3 Posted February 10, 2006 Members Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat I wish I would have worked my ass off and gotten my degree (Advertising design) and made lots of investments when i was young (like my dad tried to tell me to do) instead of living for today. Yeah... I hear ya! But what about all those memories. There's nothing memorable about advertising design. (Hahaa! Just kidding! )
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.