Members Lee Flier Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Short answer: yes, that's cheating. It's not quite as bad as actually having sex, of course, but a lot of people have these types of "affairs" and pat themselves on the back thinking everything's fine because they're not having sex. The simple fact is, they're not honoring their relationship and that's a problem. In fact, it would be more devastating to me and a lot of people to find out my SO was having a long term "emotional affair" with no actual sex, than to find out they had a meaningless one night sexual encounter. If you're the SO, I wouldn't necessarily kick the person to the curb right away. Certainly, I'd confront the partner and say he/she needs to circle back and work on the relationship. Stop the pseudo-affairs, go to counseling, try to figure out what needs aren't being met in the relationship and how to address that. And if the cheater isn't willing to do that, and isn't genuinely remorseful, and/or tries to justify what they're doing, THEN I'd kick them to the curb. If you're the person being flirted with, how you respond would probably depend on a lot of things. When that's happened to me, IF I'm actually interested in the guy, my usual response is "Yeah I'd like to be with you, but show me the divorce papers first." And guess what, nobody ever has. The way I figure it, if somebody's that in love with me that he wants to leave his wife or girlfriend, then it's serious. And I do understand that sometimes a person feels like they have to have someone else or the potential for it at least, before they can get up the courage to leave an unhappy situation. So I wouldn't be totally unresponsive (unless of course I'm just not interested - or unless the couple has kids, in which case I think that's just wrong to tempt somebody to leave a relationship when they're vulnerable). But if he doesn't want to make a clean break, there's no point muddying the waters, and most likely getting hurt as well as hurting someone else. All he's doing in that case is using me to avoid the issues he's having in his other relationship, which keeps anything from happening in either direction. That's my .02 anyway. Oh, and P.S. The naked pictures thing is WAY out of line. Sheesh.
Members zookie Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 What makes "cheating" cheating is the emotional estrangement. It's not purely the physical stuff. If the relationship is a team, then trust and emotional fidelity are key to making that team work. Putting all your emotional baggage on the line with another person is tough work, but it can lead to tons of personal growth and adds to that team spirit. You risk undermining that team work if one starts hiding little details from the other person. Flirting with other person is neither good nor bad, until you start hiding these flirtations from one's partner.
Members BlueStrat Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Yup. The physical stuff doesn't happen until after the emotional separation has already occured and one has given themselves permission. If one has to ask one's self how much they can get away with with someone else without "actually" cheating, I would suggest that the relationship is already doomed. The human psyche is capable of the most bizarre rationalizations. (Blowjob? Hey, that's not really 'sex'!" ) If one were really committted in love to another, such rationalizations wouldn't even enter one's mind. Here's my rule of thumb, which has helped me stay happily married for 23 years: If it's not something I'd tell my wife, it's not a place I need to go in the first place.
Members Lee Flier Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Yeah, what they said. Except that a relationship isn't necessarily doomed if this kind of thing happens. I've seen couples recover from it and be a lot stronger - usually once the errant partner realizes they weren't admitting to themselves or their partner that the relationship needed work. Continuing to make excuses - "Oh, it's just a little flirting, what does it hurt?" or "Everything's fine with my relationship, I just need a little extra excitement" means there's still a lot of denial going on. Once the person gets past the denial (and only then) they can take an honest look at the relationship and either fix it or leave it.
Members zookie Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Flier Except that a relationship isn't necessarily doomed if this kind of thing happens. Right. In the words of our national philosopher, Yogi Berra, it ain't over til it's over. Such a series of events as Brassic described would be an opportunity to have a long talk about how things are going overall, spoken plainly and honestly, without accusation. If that can't happen, then there's a more serious problem.
Members BlueStrat Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Flier Yeah, what they said. Except that a relationship isn't necessarily doomed if this kind of thing happens. I've seen couples recover from it and be a lot stronger - usually once the errant partner realizes they weren't admitting to themselves or their partner that the relationship needed work. Continuing to make excuses - "Oh, it's just a little flirting, what does it hurt?" or "Everything's fine with my relationship, I just need a little extra excitement" means there's still a lot of denial going on. Once the person gets past the denial (and only then) they can take an honest look at the relationship and either fix it or leave it. Well, yes. when I said "doomed" I meant headed for disater if nothing changed. Physical cheating in a relationship is much like a "slip" had by alcoholics and addicts: the actual act is the result of something that broke long before the event itself, not the cause of it. I have seen relationships recover from serial adultery, thought they are damn few.
Members vanlatte Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Here's my rule of thumb, which has helped me stay happily married for 23 years: If it's not something I'd tell my wife, it's not a place I need to go in the first place. That's some sage advice, right there! Along the same lines are things one might feel the need to "hide" from the SO; messages, voicemails, emails., etc. If they contain subject matter that one doesnt want the SO to know about, that should be raising some red flags. "When in doubt, leave it out!"
Members Blackwatch Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Very good post and some really good answers. What makes "cheating" cheating is the emotional estrangement.. But that really sums it up
Members brassic Posted March 12, 2006 Author Members Posted March 12, 2006 Thanks. You've given me something much more positive to go on than my own thoughts. Though it's hard to be rational when you haven't slept or eaten in 36 hours. I am loyal to a fault and the first questions I ask myself when approaching dodgy ground are: 1) Would I want Dearest to see/hear this? 2) How would I feel if it were the other way around? If my answers are anything other than "Absolutely" and "Just dandy", then I don't go there. I'm not very religious, but I am a firm believer in "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" (and to a lesser extent, "Everything I ever needed to know, I learned in Kindergarten." ) I do my best not to waver from this, and I think I'm a pretty good person for it. I may not have a lot of close friends, but the ones I have, I've had for a very long time. That says something, I think.
Members Rand-O-Monium Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 I'm going with the Bill Clinton answer.
Members JBJ Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 this is still a sore point on some level to me but stuff like meeting up, flirting n all that is usually only a step or two derived from going the full way and out n out cheating. EDIT: i mean only a step away from physical cheating btw, i think all that emotional stuff is still cheating by proxxy
Members zookie Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by brassic I'm not very religious, but I am a firm believer in "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" (and to a lesser extent, "Everything I ever needed to know, I learned in Kindergarten." ) I do my best not to waver from this, and I think I'm a pretty good person for it. I may not have a lot of close friends, but the ones I have, I've had for a very long time. That says something, I think. I'm more of the "mess with me and I will hunt you down to the ends of the earth" kind of person, but to each his/her own. If you haven't noticed, life, in David Hume's words, life is brutal, nasty and too short. It's a really messed up place and a vow you make one day may not survive on its own volition for very long. Love and other committments are renewed daily. It's a choice that's made and you work on that choice all the time. It's easy to slip into complacency and start assuming that once you've made a vow, that's that. Time for a beer. I hope whatever is going on only is a wakeup call to get back to working on things.
Members Lee Flier Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Wow, what a lot of great responses including the last one from brassic herself. Y'all rule!
Members Preacher Will Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by brassic If you are the instigator: Based on my experience of twenty-seven years of marriage and over twenty years of professional counseling in this area, I would suggest thtat it takes two people to make a relationship work and only one to kill it. Where you want the relationship to go requires a mutual choice but, one of you is going to have to demonstrate that choice through some seriously altered behavior. Forgive me from turning religious on you, (it is, after all, what I do) but, whether your forgivess of this person will bring healing to the relationship depends on the kind of remorse the other person is willing to display. Someone else, who is a lot smarter than me (but not quite as smart as the last guy) once pointed out that there are two kinds of remorse: one kind is basically just feeling bad about what you've done, but doesn't lead to a change in behavior. The second, is of such a character that one realizes that what they have done is wrong and they repent from what has happened, that is they turn around and travel in the opposite direction. What do you see going on in the other person? Are they changing direction? Are they hiding from just getting caught? Sometimes only time will tell. I've seen relationships recover from a lot worse. I've also seen them fall from a lot less when the two parties chose not to make it work.
Members lastcall Posted March 12, 2006 Members Posted March 12, 2006 OK, looks to me like the Instigator was looking for a {censored} buddy, you know something on the side, have his cake and eat it to. He is sorry because he got cought. It's just a matter of time untill he is on the hunt again.
Members Roy Brooks Posted March 13, 2006 Members Posted March 13, 2006 It is cheating when you are worried about it enough to post a thread about it.
Members RupertB Posted March 13, 2006 Members Posted March 13, 2006 I thought we agreed not to post about this in public. J/k Seriously, I would take one of two tacks with this situation: 1) If it were my wife, with whom I am in love and have a 15 year relationship, I'd make it clear to her that her behavior is unacceptable and that any more contact with this person would get her kicked to the curb immediately. 2) If it were anything other than a spouse & loved deeply, Gone. As in "your {censored} is in the road in 15 minutes" gone. Actions speak louder than words & there are MUCH worse things than being alone.
Members brassic Posted March 14, 2006 Author Members Posted March 14, 2006 Thanks for the responses. I really do appreciate it and it means a lot to me, I won't go into detail, but I think everything will be ok.
Members Rich4Once Posted March 15, 2006 Members Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by brassic Thanks for the responses. I really do appreciate it and it means a lot to me, I won't go into detail, but I think everything will be ok. Good for you. Character is defined by your behavior when nobody's looking. BTW love the avatar!
Members Tedster Posted March 15, 2006 Members Posted March 15, 2006 I've gotta stop cheating. I'm supposed to be on a diet, and then some nimrod brings in brownies or donuts. I'm never gonna lose any weight like that.
Moderators MrKnobs Posted March 15, 2006 Moderators Posted March 15, 2006 Good thread. I think everyone really knows deep down what's cheating and what's not, we just don't want to face it sometimes. Two rules: (1) If it's something you hide from your partner, you probably shouldn't be doing it, and (2) What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Meaning, if you wouldn't want your partner to be doing it, you shouldn't be either. Note that two people can agree to any rules they want in a relationship (e.g. swingers), but nobody can agree to feel a certain way. Everybody needs the three "A's" each and every day: attention, affirmation, and affection. Each of us has a preference of these three and needs differing amounts. I say "need" rather than want because if you decide you'll do without the three "A's" your subconscious will go behind your back and get what you need anyway, somehow; it's that important. Having said all that, a little flirting is harmless. It can make you feel good about yourself, and the other person good about himself or herself. No harm done. Get your appetite where you want, but always come home for dinner. And stay away from slippery places if you don't want to fall. This means whatever it means to you, but an example might be "don't meet opposite sex people from work one on one outside of work hours." Something I had to learn the hard way is that perception matters too. A marriage counselor once told me, "Well, that's fine that God and you know that you're behaving yourself but it sure as hell looks bad to the rest of us." So it's not enough just to be loyal, you must be careful to not give the perception of any impropriety. If that seems extreme, consider how you'd feel if the situation were reversed, say if everyone in town was talking about how your wife was running around on you. Even if you knew in your heart it wasn't true, you couldn't be sure and you'd definitely be embarrassed and humiliated. Bottom line, if you have to ask yourself if something you're doing is wrong, you probably already know it's wrong and you're just trying to rationalize it so you can keep on doing it. Be kind and friendly to everyone, but be physically and emotionally intimate with one special person, it just works better that way. If you aren't getting your needs met by that person, tell them about it, they may have no idea things aren't working out on your end. Maybe it won't help, but at least you'll know you tried. Terry D.
Members brassic Posted March 15, 2006 Author Members Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by MrKnobs Everybody needs the three "A's" each and every day: attention, affirmation, and affection. Each of us has a preference of these three and needs differing amounts. I say "need" rather than want because if you decide you'll do without the three "A's" your subconscious will go behind your back and get what you need anyway, somehow; it's that important. And this is the wake-up call that I needed. Oh yeah, for those of you who hadn't already guessed, I'm the "significant other" who found out about my boyfriend and (ex)friend's exchange. Boyfriend is incredibly remorseful - I'm satisfied of that. (I still might insist he move out for a week or so though, I'm not sure yet - things seem to have taken a turn for the better so we'll see). I'm not a suspicious person (I only checked his email to get the phone number of the mates he was with because he was several hours late coming home and wasn't answering his cell - VERY unlike him), but I'm not stupid either. I don't think he'd ever do anything physical. He is very flirty with my friends and a self-confessed attention-whore and I've always accepted that, but a big line has obviously been crossed and he knows it. However, I know that I was falling down on the three A's bigstyle (working 60-70 hours a week and being in a band doesn't have a great affect on stuff like quality time and stress levels) and that played a big part in this scenario. I still think his reaction to that was akin to using a sledgehammer to crack open a peanut and I am not accepting any responsibility for his choices, however I realise that to move forward I have to make changes too. As for the "friend"...she's claiming innocence and saying it was all harmless and nothing would ever happen. She admits lying to cover up their whereabouts was wrong (I called her when it was three hours after he'd said he'd be home and she denied even having seen him that evening, when in fact he'd only left her house 10 minutes earlier), but seems to think that "I didn't want to get in the middle of anything" is an acceptable excuse. A true friend doesn't let someone go crazy with worry for hours, wondering whether her partner is either lying dead in a ditch or in flagrante with someone else. Once again, thanks for all of the responses (well, not the the flippant ones from joestanman and rand-o-monium, whatever guys).
Members Blackwatch Posted March 15, 2006 Members Posted March 15, 2006 I'm sorry you're having to go through this. It's very hard because your trust has been violated. But it can come back if you find it in your heart to forgive. I don't know how deep this relationship is but it can come back, it takes a while and some pain and work, but it can be repaired. (Experience talking) Or not...and that's OK too. Just take care of yourself.....
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