Members exitoneman Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 In all my years of playing in a band, I've never seen anything like what happen to us last night. We had a two night gig booked at a bar we've played several times before. Played the first night no problem. Showed up last night (the second night) about an hour before show time. Thirty minutes before we're suppose to go on, three uniformed police show up. They take the bartender outside for a chat. Next thing we know, they send him in to get the band - "the entire band" was their supposed words. We all go outside immediately and we're asked if we have an "occupational license" to perform. We of course do not and stated so. He then informed us that if we played we would be cited. Just for background info - we are a cover band that has been playing for many years in our hometown area. We all have solid day jobs and do this mostly for fun. We've NEVER had any issues with the police or any other law enforcement agency. This blew us away and all we could do was assume that there was more to it than appeared. Maybe the bar owner was being pressured. Maybe there was some new crack down and we were one of the firsts to be "caught". Who knows. I will say that our guitar player stopped by a few other bars on the way home and two of them (in the same city) had bands on stage performing. He did not ask them if they had a occupational license however. Thoughts??? -Jeff
Members Beachbum Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 Something similar happened to me in Cleveland once. I went to the Justice Center (Police Station / City Hall) and politely explained the situation and inquired as to the rules & regulations. All you need do is ask the proper authorities what is required. (Sorry to hear of your situation.)
Members Scheming Demon Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 I have never heard of such a thing. I've been playing clubs and bars for over 20 years and this has never occurred to me or anyone I know. Sounds fishy but there probably is some "thing" on the books that is never enforced, that is unless they want to. I don't know if this would be a law everywhere or just in some isolated towns here and there. Sounds like someone has got it out for this bar and wants to make their life difficult, you just happened to be there. Maybe the bar is not paying their rent or whatever, who knows.
Members wikwox Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 Never heard of it either. Sounds like our beloved police/politicians spreading thier web of misery to a larger area of the helpless. Sorry 'bout your gig.
Members srsfallriver Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 I've never heard of this either. Where did this occur? Sounds like a local politician being a jerk.
Members Disco Cat Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 What is an "occupational license," what's the reason for it existing, and so on?
Members Lee Flier Posted March 19, 2006 Members Posted March 19, 2006 I've NEVER heard of such a thing. Ordinarily the venue is responsible for all licensing, not the band. The only possible legit explanation I can think of (besides some bizarro local law) is if the venue was getting busted for not having paid its licensing fees to ASCAP/BMI. If the venue hadn't paid that, they might be precluded from having live music there unless the band itself is paying royalties. Otherwise, I have no clue. Let us know if you find out anything more!
Members gtrbass Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 The only thing like this I have ever heard of is when you are working as a street performer. In LA County they issue a permit (and collect a $$$ fee) for that. You need an occupational license for certain trades like hair cutting, etc, usually through the State consumer affairs bureau, but for playing music? Like Lee said there are the license fees the club pays to ASCAP or BMI, but that's not the band's responsibility. You should have very politely asked the officers to inform you of the precise muncipal code which applied to the circumstances. Sounds to me like someone's throwing heat on the bar owner for whatever reason, and you were caught in the middle.
Members caveman Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by exitoneman In all my years of playing in a band, I've never seen anything like what happen to us last night.We had a two night gig booked at a bar we've played several times before. Played the first night no problem. Showed up last night (the second night) about an hour before show time. Thirty minutes before we're suppose to go on, three uniformed police show up. They take the bartender outside for a chat. Next thing we know, they send him in to get the band - "the entire band" was their supposed words. We all go outside immediately and we're asked if we have an "occupational license" to perform. We of course do not and stated so. He then informed us that if we played we would be cited.Just for background info - we are a cover band that has been playing for many years in our hometown area. We all have solid day jobs and do this mostly for fun. We've NEVER had any issues with the police or any other law enforcement agency. This blew us away and all we could do was assume that there was more to it than appeared. Maybe the bar owner was being pressured. Maybe there was some new crack down and we were one of the firsts to be "caught". Who knows. I will say that our guitar player stopped by a few other bars on the way home and two of them (in the same city) had bands on stage performing. He did not ask them if they had a occupational license however.Thoughts???-Jeff Doesn't that sound like a "bill of attainder"?
Members Scafeets Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 It happened in Gainesville, FL 5 years ago:http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_8_32/ai_68742807 A quick search found a law on the books in a few Florida counties for "bands, variety shows and DJs"
Members gtrbass Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 How f*cked up is that? Even the local city council wants you to Pay to play!!!
Members elbow Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Whoa.. never heard of this happening... ever. What country/area/region was this?
Members srsfallriver Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by gtrbass How f*cked up is that? Even the local city council wants you to Pay to play!!! They probably have connections in the union.
Members Brian Krashpad Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Scafeets It happened in Gainesville, FL 5 years ago:http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_8_32/ai_68742807 I believe you were trying to link to this article: http://reason.com/0101/ci.bd.artistic.shtml I am the "Brian Kruger" quoted in the article. In our case, the licensing scheme included "musician" under "professional." Thus giving us an argument that it only included people whose full time occupation was as a musician. The city backed off when we made a stink and threatened to challenge them on it. A better-written ordinance would have no problem passing legal muster, and applying to weekend warriors, depending on the laws of the individual jurisdiction. And to respond to Lee's comment that the venue would be responsible for obtaining licenses, that's simply NOT the case. It depends on how the ordinance is drafted and how the local officials chose to enforce it. Depending on how the ordinance was drafted, law enforcement could quite properly cite the band rather than the venue. This is not a copyright license, it's an occupational license, and the persons hiring themselves out as musicians would be liable for not having the proper license, same as a plumber, electrician, food vendor, etc. BK
Members exitoneman Posted March 20, 2006 Author Members Posted March 20, 2006 This happened in the city of Independence, MO. I did some research last night on their website. They have a link to their city code but, of course, it wasn't working properly last night. They do have information and online applications to obtain a "business license" which appears to be what we need. Looks like the cost will be $25. The kicker is that we also have to have $500,000 worth of liability insurance. I'm not sure what we are going to do but I will get ahold of the City Hall today to see if anyone can help. Sad part is, if this becomes too difficult, we'll just bail on the City of Independence. Too bad, there are some fun venues there. I'll post back when I know more. -Jeff
Members Brian Krashpad Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by caveman Doesn't that sound like a "bill of attainder"? In a word, no. It sounds like heavyhanded enforcement of a probably-legal occupational licensing scheme. BK
Members Scafeets Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Brian Krashpad I believe you were trying to link to this article:http://reason.com/0101/ci.bd.artistic.shtmlI am the "Brian Kruger" quoted in the article.In our case, the licensing scheme included "musician" under "professional." Thus giving us an argument that it only included people whose full time occupation was as a musician. The city backed off when we made a stink and threatened to challenge them on it.A better-written ordinance would have no problem passing legal muster, and applying to weekend warriors, depending on the laws of the individual jurisdiction.And to respond to Lee's comment that the venue would be responsible for obtaining licenses, that's simply NOT the case. It depends on how the ordinance is drafted and how the local officials chose to enforce it. Depending on how the ordinance was drafted, law enforcement could quite properly cite the band rather than the venue. This is not a copyright license, it's an occupational license, and the persons hiring themselves out as musicians would be liable for not having the proper license, same as a plumber, electrician, food vendor, etc.BK I suugest you get in touch with the local press and see if you can raise a stink. I bet the politicians will back off real quick as soon as they're profiled as greedy assholes.
Members fastplant Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Flier I've NEVER heard of such a thing. Ordinarily the venue is responsible for all licensing, not the band. The only possible legit explanation I can think of (besides some bizarro local law) is if the venue was getting busted for not having paid its licensing fees to ASCAP/BMI. If the venue hadn't paid that, they might be precluded from having live music there unless the band itself is paying royalties. Otherwise, I have no clue. Let us know if you find out anything more! Yeah, sounds more like the bar was supposed to have the license, and when it turned out they didn't, they questioned the band to see if maybe they had one.
Members Lee Flier Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Brian Krashpad And to respond to Lee's comment that the venue would be responsible for obtaining licenses, that's simply NOT the case. It depends on how the ordinance is drafted and how the local officials chose to enforce it. Depending on how the ordinance was drafted, law enforcement could quite properly cite the band rather than the venue. This is not a copyright license, it's an occupational license, and the persons hiring themselves out as musicians would be liable for not having the proper license, same as a plumber, electrician, food vendor, etc. Yeah that's a different kind of license. My comments only referred to the ASCAP/BMI blanket license, which the venue IS responsible for paying. I hadn't ever heard of bands having to get an occupational license, unless they incorporate, and that's a whole other thing. Thanks for all the info... sheesh there is no end to the ways people try to take what little musicians earn out of our pockets, is there?
Members Brian Krashpad Posted March 20, 2006 Members Posted March 20, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Flier Yeah that's a different kind of license. My comments only referred to the ASCAP/BMI blanket license, which the venue IS responsible for paying. I hadn't ever heard of bands having to get an occupational license, unless they incorporate, and that's a whole other thing. Thanks for all the info... sheesh there is no end to the ways people try to take what little musicians earn out of our pockets, is there? It's crazy. That insurance requiremnt mentioned later above is downright stupid. That's the kind of requirement that might need to be applied to a venue, not a band. Unfortunately stupid laws are not necessarily unconstitutional nor unenforceable. What the local rockers need to do is get in touch with the hoity-toity set that supports "the arts" locally and let them know that the next time the touring production of "Cats" comes to town they won't be able to see it unless the pit band gets a license. I bet the thing would get fixed in a flash. The answer to these stupid sorts of laws is more political than legal. BK
Members Alan Dunn Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 I guess it was touched on with the post concerning Cats but, what about touring bands? If you had to buy one for every town you played in it could get real expensive.
Members exitoneman Posted March 27, 2006 Author Members Posted March 27, 2006 Just a quick follow up... Looks like we're going to go ahead and get the license - $25 so it's not ridiculous or anything. We've got a few gigs lined up in this town so we may as well try to make it work. It also appears that the particular venue this happened at is most likely being singled out for some reason. They had trouble again this past weekend. The word was that the cops came in Friday night and wrote the bar owner a ticket (this is not what they told us would happen if we played???) but the show went on both Friday and Saturday night. There is also talk that the bar is taking legal action towards the city. Please keep in mind that although these pieces of information come from reliable sources, they are not yet proven. We've heard no stories of (recent) trouble like this at any of the other venues in this city and there's quite a few of them. We did hear from another local band via an ad our drummer place that "yep, you better get the license just to be safe if you play in that town." All this just to have fun and recoupe a small amount of what we spend during the year on gear and such. It's a damn good thing it's worth it .
Members Blackwatch Posted March 27, 2006 Members Posted March 27, 2006 To play the Pike Place Public Market Market here in Seattle, there is a $25 performer fee per year. This came about because the market, which behind the Space Needle, is one of Seattle most recognizable landmarks....was awash in street musicians trying to make a buck. It became a nuisance. So now they charge $25 per year and the performers have to move 'positions' ( You can only play in 20 designated areas) every hour. It's a reasonable regulation.
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