Members Marlin in Minn Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 It seems like a lot of people treat music like they would sharing a simple virus scan for their computer or something. I've spread some good music around that I've lately purchased, and I've had several people say that they really like it. So, I tell them where it can be purchased....and they look at me like I just grew a third eye in the middle of my forehead! "Well, you can just make me a copy can't you?" I explain that these are not bands that are supported by big company labels, they are independant bands and yes, every Cd they sell helps them a little. "Well, I just don't see how one little copy will hurt them" Grrrr!!!! Does anyone else run into this mindset?
Members shredfit Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 I don't see it as necessarily a totally bad thing. I mean, I understand loss to the indy artist... but just how much is lost. In reality, a local non-signed indy artist will probably top out at selling 1,000 units of a particular release... say at a average of $10 per unit... so you have $10,000 and if you split that up between members of a 4 piece band.... that isn't a whole lot of change (sure better than nothing) but still not make a living $$$. So, they are not being hurt by the trading of their music a whole lot... in terms of cash. However, having 10 people trade their music to another 10 each... will lead to 100 people hearing it... then if those 100 do the same thing you have 1,000... if those 1,000 do the same thing you have 10,000 if those 10,000 people each trade with 10 then you have 100,000 people that have heard your music... and so on.... Having all these potential listeners will only help the band build a following and get industry interest... with the potential to make coin ever increasing. One MUST also remember that when Napster was at it's all time highest... so were album sales. People just were not buying flavor of the month pop albums... although they still had good sales. My take on it.
Members P.A.T. Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 basicly, I agree with shredfit. That's why our (original) music can be downloaded for free on our site. We also have the demo on CD, but that's intended as promotion material. Of course the CD is also for sale for those who wish to have a CD with artwork. Money comes in through gigging, although that's barely covering total costs. But then again, our intention is not to make music for a living... My guess is that a a lot of bands are allready doing this, and most others will follow in the near future. Then (live) performance will be more important than record sales...
Members THBv2.0 Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 I'm torn on this one. I love getting my music out to anyone who wants to listen, but at the same time I have costs to recover. What I hate is people who feel they are entitled to a free CD, and give me attitude when I don't agree. What I love is when other musicians are happy to trade me their work for mine. 90 of the last 100 CDs I've gotten have been by this method. What I love the most is when someone buys my CD and tells a friend and they buy one, too. The comment about "I don't see how one little copy could hurt" is self-absorbed and stupid and I would not support the attitude. For the record, when I listened to the CDs I traded with SpacedCowboy of TK-421 to get I was so turned on by their music that I burned a copy to listen to in my truck, then proceeded to CDBaby where I bought two more copies to give away.
Members Professor Tom Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 I've had this as well. Here are two examples, one good, one bad. Good.I burned off a copy of a Jeff Beck album for a friend. Three months later he has bought every album that Jeff has ever released. Bad.Another friend turned up with fifty (yes, fifty !) blank discs and wanted to raid my C.D. collection for free.I told him to {censored} off and buy the albums himself at full retail price. Amazing !
Members JBJ Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 shred fit if your boss said you know what I'm going to not bother giving you this 2 and a half grand that you're entitled to because in the grand scheme of things it's not a whole lot of money... can we assume you'd be like yeah sure take it i don't mind losing out on money i've earned?
Members Beachbum Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Those who are opposed to copying music never copied any computer software programs did they?
Members Preacher Will Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Theft is still theft regardless of your justifications.
Members JacieFB Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Two words: MIX TAPE!!! Make them a CD-R with a couple of tracks. If they like it, they should buy the record. Indie bands gotta eat.
Members shredfit Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by JBJ shred fit if your boss said you know what I'm going to not bother giving you this 2 and a half grand that you're entitled to because in the grand scheme of things it's not a whole lot of money... can we assume you'd be like yeah sure take it i don't mind losing out on money i've earned? This is NOT the point and realistically, your take should be MUCH less than $2,500 if your putting out a sellable product. Let use assume your first album will have 10-12 songs on it... Let's then assume that you band is super tight and all tracking/mixing can be done on $5,000-6,000 budget. Then, your group will need art work and photo's(your girlfriend with her new digital camera doesn't count) and you find someone to take photo's and design the CD art for a mere $800... Now you send your mix's to a mastering house for final touches(you want your selling product to be of high quality) and this is another $1,500. So now, it's time to get the product replicated, another $1,200(for 1000 copies). Let's see: 5,000 + 800 + 1,500 + 1,200 = $8,500 Now sell all 1,000 copies at $10 per copy... $10,000 - 8,500 = 1,500 then split 4 ways.... $375.00 profit per person... and that is ONLY if you sell ALL copies. So $375 per individual band member, MUST also be broken down to personal band memebers expenses. Strings, drum sticks, drum heads, gas to rehearsal and studio, phone calls, coffee, beer, Web sites, etc etc etc... totalling to a modest $374.00 per band member... Thus leaving $1.00 profit per band member IF all 1000 CD's are sold. Enough profit to purchase a daily news paper... Sheesh, reality sucks huh?
Members Lee Flier Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by Professor Tom I've had this as well. Here are two examples, one good, one bad.Good.I burned off a copy of a Jeff Beck album for a friend. Three months later he has bought every album that Jeff has ever released.Bad.Another friend turned up with fifty (yes, fifty !) blank discs and wanted to raid my C.D. collection for free.I told him to {censored} off and buy the albums himself at full retail price.Amazing ! Yeah I think this about sums it up. I don't think of people sharing my music with each other as theft. I think of it as an advertising expense. Record labels pay out the wazoo to get their artists heard by more people, and we can now get that service virtually for free via the Internet and cheap CDR's. If someone else hearing my music translates to them buying more of our catalog, or coming out to a gig and bringing friends (and maybe buying T shirts and other merch), or just telling more of their friends about us, then the "promotional machine" will have done its job. Now there's no doubt that some people abuse the privilege, never buy a CD and never have any intention of buying one. They believe they're entitled to free music, and that ain't cool. But of course there's always been a certain amount of that - people taping records off friends, the radio, etc. I don't like these people's attitude and I certainly don't condone their habit... but again, if they're playing our (illegally burned) CD at a party and a few people hear it and like it, we still gain something. It's a tough line to draw, but I do try to think of it in terms of how much we (or a label) would have to pay for that many people to hear our music if they weren't downloading and/or copying it.
Members JacieFB Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by shredfit This is NOT the point and realistically, your take should be MUCH less than $2,500 if your putting out a sellable product. Let use assume your first album will have 10-12 songs on it... Let's then assume that you band is super tight and all tracking/mixing can be done on $5,000-6,000 budget. Then, your group will need art work and photo's(your girlfriend with her new digital camera doesn't count) and you find someone to take photo's and design the CD art for a mere $800... Now you send your mix's to a mastering house for final touches(you want your selling product to be of high quality) and this is another $1,500. So now, it's time to get the product replicated, another $1,200(for 1000 copies). Let's see: 5,000 + 800 + 1,500 + 1,200 = $8,500 Now sell all 1,000 copies at $10 per copy... $10,000 - 8,500 = 1,500 then split 4 ways.... $375.00 profit per person... and that is ONLY if you sell ALL copies. So $375 per individual band member, MUST also be broken down to personal band memebers expenses. Strings, drum sticks, drum heads, gas to rehearsal and studio, phone calls, coffee, beer, Web sites, etc etc etc... totalling to a modest $374.00 per band member... Thus leaving $1.00 profit per band member IF all 1000 CD's are sold. Enough profit to purchase a daily news paper... Sheesh, reality sucks huh? This business model is flawed for the independent musician. CD sales and T-shirt sales are the bread and butter...the only way you eat on tour. If you can't get your CD tracked and mixed for less than 5~6 grand, then you've got trouble from the start. 1200 is reasonable for 1000 CD's reproduced, but you can do better. You can also do better than 1500 for mastering for something that is sold independently. Those numbers are perhaps more accurate if you have a small label footing the bill...and a bit of promo so that you can feasibly move more than 1000 CD's and thus, increase your sales.
Members BlueStrat Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 *pulls up chair, makes popcorn, waits for ensuing pointless and unwinnable bickering about thievery vs. obscene record industry profits*
Members shredfit Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by JacieFB This business model is flawed for the independent musician. CD sales and T-shirt sales are the bread and butter...the only way you eat on tour. If you can't get your CD tracked and mixed for less than 5~6 grand, then you've got trouble from the start. 1200 is reasonable for 1000 CD's reproduced, but you can do better. You can also do better than 1500 for mastering for something that is sold independently. Those numbers are perhaps more accurate if you have a small label footing the bill...and a bit of promo so that you can feasibly move more than 1000 CD's and thus, increase your sales. I'm sure you can just get the record done for less...(I've heard plenty of them) However, I was refering to something that could really hold up to major label release... in quality, look, and sound. (ie something that would make that band stand out from the crowd) I have no doubt that one could record it cheaper if you record in joe blows basement with a digi 002 rig. What I'm refring to is recording in a real reasonably well equipped "real" studio and mixed by a pro with a track record(ie probably has some label credits to his/her name) Not, little johnny "engineer" with a computer and a digi 002 rig... There is a difference(believe it or not).
Members light_without_heat Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by shredfit This is NOT the point and realistically, your take should be MUCH less than $2,500 if your putting out a sellable product. Let use assume your first album will have 10-12 songs on it... Let's then assume that you band is super tight and all tracking/mixing can be done on $5,000-6,000 budget. Then, your group will need art work and photo's(your girlfriend with her new digital camera doesn't count) and you find someone to take photo's and design the CD art for a mere $800... Now you send your mix's to a mastering house for final touches(you want your selling product to be of high quality) and this is another $1,500. So now, it's time to get the product replicated, another $1,200(for 1000 copies). Let's see: 5,000 + 800 + 1,500 + 1,200 = $8,500 Now sell all 1,000 copies at $10 per copy... $10,000 - 8,500 = 1,500 then split 4 ways.... $375.00 profit per person... and that is ONLY if you sell ALL copies. So $375 per individual band member, MUST also be broken down to personal band memebers expenses. Strings, drum sticks, drum heads, gas to rehearsal and studio, phone calls, coffee, beer, Web sites, etc etc etc... totalling to a modest $374.00 per band member... Thus leaving $1.00 profit per band member IF all 1000 CD's are sold. Enough profit to purchase a daily news paper... Sheesh, reality sucks huh? Kinda takes the fun out of the original rock band frontman job when ya put it that way!!! hahaha. Oh well there's still room for improvement in that model. It's not impossible to make money you just have to think outside the box, do what other bands refuse to do. Keep a sharpbusiness eye and pounce on anything you can.
Members BlueStrat Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by shredfit I'm sure you can just get the record done for less...(I've heard plenty of them) However, I was refering to something that could really hold up to major label release... in quality, look, and sound. (ie something that would make that band stand out from the crowd) I have no doubt that one could record it cheaper if you record in joe blows basement with a digi 002 rig. What I'm refring to is recording in a real reasonably well equipped "real" studio and mixed by a pro with a track record(ie probably has some label credits to his/her name) Not, little johnny "engineer" with a computer and a digi 002 rig... There is a difference(believe it or not). Yes, and what gets overlookd by the DIY musician is the enormous cost of promoting, distributing and advertising that a major label CD incurs. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars. Just a 1/8 panel in one national magazine can cost 1 grand per month.
Members Beachbum Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 I like the subject, and it appears to be a no-win situation for the record companies. In a way the little eveil meanie inside of me relishes that the record companies are taking it in the shorts after forcing me for YEARS to purchase an entire CD or album worth of songs to get the ONE song I wanted. But the rational part of me realizes that illegal downloading and trading poses a serious threat to the music business as a whole. Professional musicians and record companies are going to have to come up with some new business platforms (whatever they may be) because the illegal downloading & sharing faction is too big to stop. A friend of mine had 40GB of music on hard disk. He offered to copy it onto another hard disk and give it to me. Do you realize how much music that is? And how hard of an offer that is to refuse? How many years would a person spend trying to accumulate all of those songs? It's a crazy twisted convoluted subject.
Members Lee Flier Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Yes, and what gets overlookd by the DIY musician is the enormous cost of promoting, distributing and advertising that a major label CD incurs. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars. Just a 1/8 panel in one national magazine can cost 1 grand per month. Yep... that's why as I said above, I look at "theft" of our music as simply part of promotional costs. If people weren't "stealing" our music we'd have to pay lots of money for them to know it existed - much more than is actually coming out of our pockets when people download or copy our stuff.
Members Beachbum Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by light_without_heat Kinda takes the fun out of the original rock band frontman job when ya put it that way!!! hahaha. Oh well there's still room for improvement in that model. It's not impossible to make money you just have to think outside the box, do what other bands refuse to do. Keep a sharpbusiness eye and pounce on anything you can. WOW. That's sharp & creative thinking, Light! I've been promoting that type of attitude for a while now. We're going to get along REAL well. Seriously man, good post.
Members JacieFB Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by shredfit I'm sure you can just get the record done for less...(I've heard plenty for them) However, I was refering to something that could really hold up to major label release... in quality, look, and sound. (ie something that would make that band stand out from the crowd) I have no doubt that one could record it cheaper if you record in joe blows basement with a digi 002 rig. What I'm refring to is recording in a real reasonably well equipped "real" studio and mixed by a pro with a track record(ie probably has some label credits to his/her name) Not, little johnny "engineer" with a computer and a digi 002 rig... There is a difference(believe it or not). Ahhhh...I see your point. My point is that ~typically~ if you're going to sink that much into your product, you're going to have some kind of backing and promo budget.
Members shredfit Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by BlueStrat Yes, and what gets overlookd by the DIY musician is the enormous cost of promoting, distributing and advertising that a major label CD incurs. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars. Just a 1/8 panel in one national magazine can cost 1 grand per month. Man, I hear ya! Here is something even more interesting... A few years ago I was in an all original band, in which our singer worked as field marketing rep. for Univeral Music... He would bring new singles to the radio stations(before the record was released for airplay) and he took me with him a couple times. Here is how it went: He picked me up in a Univeral van which was freaken loaded to the top with X-box's and video games etc etc... We then would go to a radio station and talk with the program director and some of the DJ's... it would go something like this for POP radio. My singer: Hey, here is the new pop single by this hot new artist called Shakira... Dude, shes hot, and has this whole pop/latin thing happening... (hands him poster and label one sheet with a few CD's and some other stuff) Radio guy: Cool, thanks man. My singer: Hey you like video games? Radio guy: Sure, what do you got...( notice, he implied my buddy/singer had something...for him) My singer: I got some X-box's and some games would YOU, and you DJ's like one? Radio guy: Sure My singer: How many? Radio guy: Could you part with 8 of them, and some games? My singer: Not a problem, I'll be right back (we go down to the van and each carry 4 X-box's and about a dozen different games back to them) My singer: You gonna play the new Shakria single? Radio guy: Not a problem... it will be on rotation tomorrow. My singer: Cool, see ya in a couple weeks. Radio guy: Take it easy... Two weeks it is... ME: Payola plain and simple (actually, I cannot remember which pop artist my singer was pimpin' so I picked one for the story... that being Shakira... but I do recall it was a female artist)
Members worthyjoe Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 I have mixed emotions on this and here's how I break it down. As a band, I think you should be totally cool with people buying your CD, getting excited about your CD, and then burning copies for friends. I think in the big picture, obtaining a new "fan" is more valuable than the price of 1 CD. That fan would not have otherwise bought your CD or even known of you. Now they may buy them in the future and buy a ticket to your show - and bring friends. They may also burn it for friends of theirs.... and so on. I agree that people shouldn't be focused on getting music for free.. that's not cool. But I think it's a good thing for people to get excited about music and want to share it for free. So while you might not get every dime for your copyrighted material, when you gain fans, that always = $$ in the long run. Getting your music heard and accepted should be the only thing artists care about. They should lighten up and focus on making good music. The money will come.
Members JacieFB Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by shredfit Man, I hear ya! Here is something even more interesting... A few years ago I was in an all original band, in which our singer worked as field marketing rep. for Univeral Music... He would bring new singles to the radio stations(before the record was released for airplay) and he took me with him a couple times. Here is how it went: He picked me up in a Univeral van which was freaken loaded to the top with X-box's and video games etc etc... We then would go to a radio station and talk with the program director and some of the DJ's... it would go something like this for POP radio. My singer: Hey, here is the new pop single by this hot new artist called Shakira... Dude, shes hot, and has this whole pop/latin thing happening... (hands him poster and label one sheet with a few CD's and some other stuff) Radio guy: Cool, thanks man. My singer: Hey you like video games? Radio guy: Sure, what do you got...( notice, he implied my buddy/singer had something...for him) My singer: I got some X-box's and some games would YOU, and you DJ's like one? Radio guy: Sure My singer: How many? Radio guy: Could you part with 8 of them, and some games? My singer: Not a problem, I'll be right back (we go down to the van and each carry 4 X-box's and about a dozen different games back to them) My singer: You gonna play the new Shakria single? Radio guy: Not a problem... it will be on rotation tomorrow. My singer: Cool, see ya in a couple weeks. Radio guy: Take it easy... Two weeks it is... ME: Payola plain and simple (actually, I cannot remember which pop artist my singer was pimpin' so I picked one for the story... that being Shakira... but I do recall it was a female artist) Sad. So sad.
Members JacieFB Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by worthyjoe I have mixed emotions on this and here's how I break it down. As a band, I think you should be totally cool with people buying your CD, getting excited about your CD, and then burning copies for friends. I think in the big picture, obtaining a new "fan" is more valuable than the price of 1 CD. That fan would not have otherwise bought your CD or even known of you. Now they may buy them in the future and buy a ticket to your show - and bring friends. They may also burn it for friends of theirs.... and so on. I agree that people shouldn't be focused on getting music for free.. that's not cool. But I think it's a good thing for people to get excited about music and want to share it for free. So while you might not get every dime for your copyrighted material, when you gain fans, that always = $$ in the long run. Getting your music heard and accepted should be the only thing artists care about. They should lighten up and focus on making good music. The money will come. This is the way I look at promoting my own music. I'd rather someone have it as not have it. So, if you come to my merch table, come ready to bargain!
Members Lee Flier Posted March 17, 2006 Members Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by JacieFB Sad. So sad. Yeah, and actually a bunch of XBoxes are chump change compared to what the labels pay out to "independent promoters" who are basically go-betweens used to hide the massive amounts of dough flowing from labels to radio stations. Payola has never gone away at all, it's just funneled through a middleman.
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