Do you foresee continuing downward band pay?

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by The*Ataris Who are we talking about here? Cover bands or original acts? People who regularly watch live music range in ages from about 15-30 and aren't interested in watching middle-aged dudes play "Born to be Wild". They're following original bands who play once or twice a month... People who go out to drink and dance don't watch cover bands either. Hip hop killed that for you... Were just at a weird crossroads because there are so many baby boomers still trying to make money playing music with more and more young people taking up instruments everyday. The underground music scene is doing very well right now. Hundreds of young people show up to watch good local acts around here whenever they play. They buy CD's. t-shirts, stickers, drinks, whatever. If you're not catering to this crowd, then you better be doing it for fun...

 

 

Yup, this is one consideration I had in hanging up the band except for special occaisions and going out as a single or duo. I notice the 'graying" of my audience. I'm almost 51, and I noticed my crowd was mostly 40-60. There were a few 30s, and even some 20s who followed us around, but not many. Peole my age have more disposable income to spend, but as a rule, end up going home about 11 pm to midnight, nurse a few drinks all night, and often don't go out on the weekends at all but rather go motorhoming or on motorcycle trips, or have the grandkids for the weekend.

 

it's kind or ironic, but just the way it works: by the time you get decently good as a player, you start losing your crowd due to age. I just figured it's time to step off and let the younger guys come up and develop. There are still lots of single and duo gigs around, I play a couple of high dollar winery/restaurant places, I start early and get done early, and make about 35 bucks an hour for playing plus free dinner, and all I need is an acoustic guitar and a mic and stand, they provide PA. I may go do some festival and outdoor work this summer, but then, maybe not.

[sventvkg]

I think the future for original musicians is going to be private concerts or house concerts that are BYOB..I'm looking to proliforate in that market significantly in the next few years...As far as Bar gigs go, if you want to make money consistanly become a VERY GOOD one man band..I foresee $$ never going up for bands..Only getting worse as the years go by.

[ibobunot]

Originally posted by rhat The one thing that i think has really cut into band gigs is DJ's. But then its understandable due to the fact that there is a real lack of decent affordable cover bands to play wedding receptions, etc.

 

 

 

I just went to a wedding where the Brides brother hooked up a MP3 player to the PA and controlled the music with a remote. He did the wedding march, the dance music and most of the photography and it all worked out great.

[Beachbum]

Quoted from bluestrat above: I play a couple of high dollar winery/restaurant places, I start early and get done early, and make about 35 bucks an hour for playing plus free dinner, and all I need is an acoustic guitar and a mic and stand, they provide PA. I may go do some festival and outdoor work this summer, but then, maybe not.

Quoted from sven above: I think the future for original musicians is going to be private concerts or house concerts that are BYOB..I'm looking to proliforate in that market significantly in the next few years...As far as Bar gigs go, if you want to make money consistanly become a VERY GOOD one man band..I foresee $$ never going up for bands..Only getting worse as the years go by.

Smart move guys. This appears to me to be a profitable music venture. I see others doing this, I'm doing it. Even if we have to take a small PA system the idea is still favorable.

I've been accepting of the fact that high dollar band gigs of yesteryear are not available right now, so I have to settle for less (not to say the high dollar gigs might not come back, we'll have to wait and see). $35.00 an hour and even $25.00 is not bad pay at all for something I'd probably be sitting at home doing anyhow.

[Matter-Eater Lad]

Originally posted by zookie he DWI aspect hints at how much we've moved away from being able to walk to your nearest watering hole. With McMansions being constructed well outside city limits, where it's all just a bedroom community with no local identity, you have entertainment facilities limited to strip malls. As the small places in towns buckle, the franchise takes over along the highways. More than a dip in entertainment trends, I think we're seeing a fundamental change away from being able to take a stroll downtown, grab supper and then take in a show. Now you load into the minivan and drive an hour to the nearest "thriving" live music venue. It's a shrinking market.

WTF? "Seeing" a change? It's here and been like this for a while. It's already happened.

[squealie]

Originally posted by ibobunot I just went to a wedding where the Brides brother hooked up a MP3 player to the PA and controlled the music with a remote. He did the wedding march, the dance music and most of the photography and it all worked out great.

 

 

 

One day soon, the DJ will be replaced by a 'jukebox' robot, that can sort and mix songs and beats, buy request popularity.

 

You'll put you're $5 in for the priveledge to dance to your song though.

[guitarmook]

Until something changes, and 'Live Music' is suddenly cool again with young people, I don't see anything that can stop the continued downward trend.

[jumpduck]

 

Originally posted by rhat The one thing that i think has really cut into band gigs is DJ's. But then its understandable due to the fact that there is a real lack of decent affordable cover bands to play wedding receptions, etc. Typically alot of bands dont have the ability to play to a group of people that range in age from 15 to 60. The lower priced bands are all doing nitch music poorly or awful original stuff .... that doesnt really sell to a mainstream event like a wedding reception ... at least with a DJ you get music that they can dance to. The bench of suitable bands in reality is pretty thin.... Who knows maybe things will change as we get re entry guys back into doing covers ..... in the meantime ,, the DJS are going to keep cleaning most bands clocks. I dont think its a money issue ,, its more of a talent and song list issue. rat

 

 

Lot of truth here. Back in the early eighties was when my ability to make decent coin by gigging started tapering off: same time as the DJ's started to become more numerous. About the same time, the DUI laws in my state changed, and we saw an immediate drop in crowd numbers.

In the late 70's, we were a five peice band getting $300 a night at the bars, $400 at the animal clubs, and $400-$1000 for weddings, reunions, proms, etc.

Lottsa good cover groups round here not making that now, 30 years later.

[BlueStrat]

Originally posted by jumpduck Lot of truth here. Back in the early eighties was when my ability to make decent coin by gigging started tapering off: same time as the DJ's started to become more numerous. About the same time, the DUI laws in my state changed, and we saw an immediate drop in crowd numbers. In the late 70's, we were a five peice band getting $300 a night at the bars, $400 at the animal clubs, and $400-$1000 for weddings, reunions, proms, etc. Lottsa good cover groups round here not making that now, 30 years later.

 

 

Exactly right. In the early 80s, when I was in my 20s, I did road work for almost 4 years. I did 6 nights a week and made about $75 a night plus rooms plus (usually) meals. That workes out to on average 450/week. Today, 24 years later, I could take that same 5 guys and make maybe 75-80 bucks apiece in a bar, more for events (but for the sake of discussion, let's confine it to bars).In addition, the 6 night gig is almost completely a thing of the past, you're lucky to get two nights now.

 

So, while pay hasn't gone up, the cost of everything else has. The price of a good used MIA strat was about 300 bucks, a LP Custom was 600. Gas was about 60 cents a gallon. Cigarettes were 40 cents a pack. You could get a full breakfast at just about any restaurant in town for $2.25. A 12 pack of beer was 3.75. I could go on, but you get the idea. The chance of playing music for a decent living was low then, it's almost impossible now.

[mrcpro]

Pay has been static, that's for sure. Downward if you factor in cost of living.

No one simple answer, just a lot of things in place that weren't when I started playing clubs over 30 years ago.

Laws: DUI, anti-smoking...
Competition: DJs, Karaoke, casinos...
Demographics: not as many in the prime club-going age group of 21-35 as in the baby-boom years...

And all the other stuff squeezing people's pocketbooks more each year... higher rents, gas prices, etc etc....

[rhat]

Originally posted by The*Ataris Who are we talking about here? Cover bands or original acts? People who regularly watch live music range in ages from about 15-30 and aren't interested in watching middle-aged dudes play "Born to be Wild". They're following original bands who play once or twice a month... People who go out to drink and dance don't watch cover bands either. Hip hop killed that for you... Were just at a weird crossroads because there are so many baby boomers still trying to make money playing music with more and more young people taking up instruments everyday. The underground music scene is doing very well right now. Hundreds of young people show up to watch good local acts around here whenever they play. They buy CD's. t-shirts, stickers, drinks, whatever. If you're not catering to this crowd, then you better be doing it for fun...

 

 

 

 

You have a point but you are ignoring the demographics ..... the bulk of the population is middle aged people. They are the onew writing the checks for the DJ at the kids wedding receptions .... they own the bars ... and they have the disposable income and free time. Its a huge segment of the market. They grew up on live bands..... Take a place like bike week .... a middle aged band with beer guts and bald heads that can do a good cover of born to be wild is going to pack a bar ,,,,, death metal and fruity and the blow your buddy need not apply. Music is nothing but marketing .....most bands in my opinion dont know how to market ,, they know how to whine.. and degrade the customer because they cant sell their music. There are all kinds of bands out there ,,,, one needs to look at who has the steady work..... While it may not be glamerous watching a 50 year old do born to be wild ,,, you can bet those guys are playing more and for more money than the kids with their hair died black with a wallet on a chain screaming into a mic with so much effects on their instruments they sound like devils are fuking inside the amp...... gosh i dound like my dad when he heard hendrix lol.....but then the bands that played that didnt make any money either lol. In 1970 there were three things that ususally defined a band that sucked ,,,, they did smoke on the water ,, sunshine of your love and purple haze ........rat

[Scafeets]

At the risk of sounding as old as I am, let me point out that I've been hearing the "death of live music" crap since the early 70s.

First it was disco, then videogames, the anti-smoking laws, the Internet, Radio, Record Companies --- wha! wah! waaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

And now DWI? Drunk drivers are a scourge on society and need to be incarcerated. When they do show up at gigs, they're the assholes in the back yelling for "Freebird." {censored} 'em.

Maybe I'm lucky that I live in an area with a strong live music scene. But I have lived in NYC, Boston and Nashville, and I do travel a lot --- so I know the gigs are out there.

Are there opportunities for every doofus with a Strat and 6 guitar lessons under his belt? No. And just because your boyfriend thinks your writing is Really Deep doesn't mean your songs are worth 100 people ponying up 5 clams each on a Saturday night.

Being good helps, and hustling has always been a requirement.
Sure, you're going to have to deal with bar owners, frat boys, politicians, agents and other assorted posers, wannabes and assholes. This is the Music Business -- what were you expecting?

Most of the musicians I know that are complaining about not gettting gigs are playing second rate "original" material that no one is willing to pay to hear. Good, original bands are getting work, building a following, and doing just fine. In fact, they're doing a lot better today than they were 25 years ago, when it cost a fortune to make a decent recording.

OK, I feel better now. Let the flaming begin..............

[elbow]

Originally posted by Scafeets At the risk of sounding as old as I am, let me point out that I've been hearing the "death of live music" crap since the early 70s. First it was disco, then videogames, the anti-smoking laws, the Internet, Radio, Record Companies --- wha! wah! waaaaaaaaaaahhhh! And now DWI? Drunk drivers are a scourge on society and need to be incarcerated. When they do show up at gigs, they're the assholes in the back yelling for "Freebird." {censored} 'em. Maybe I'm lucky that I live in an area with a strong live music scene. But I have lived in NYC, Boston and Nashville, and I do travel a lot --- so I know the gigs are out there. Are there opportunities for every doofus with a Strat and 6 guitar lessons under his belt? No. And just because your boyfriend thinks your writing is Really Deep doesn't mean your songs are worth 100 people ponying up 5 clams each on a Saturday night. Being good helps, and hustling has always been a requirement. Sure, you're going to have to deal with bar owners, frat boys, politicians, agents and other assorted posers, wannabes and assholes. This is the Music Business -- what were you expecting? Most of the musicians I know that are complaining about not gettting gigs are playing second rate "original" material that no one is willing to pay to hear. Good, original bands are getting work, building a following, and doing just fine. In fact, they're doing a lot better today than they were 25 years ago, when it cost a fortune to make a decent recording. OK, I feel better now. Let the flaming begin..............

No flames here.. for the most part I agree with you. There is a glut of bad {censored} out there.

Music has gone digital. It is portable, reproduceable, cheap, and everywhere.. top that off with everybody is a whiner.... and entitled to star status for playing Brown-Eyed Girl at Bob's Bar and BBQ down on the corner. "The club didn't have any lights pointed at me, it was small, there were drunks, it was smokey, the pay sucks" WTF? Nobody is owed {censored}.

It's easier and cheaper to hire the MP3 guy. No fuss, no muss.

/rant off

I loooooove live music. I love to hear it and I love to play it. I can sit and watch a brass band play march songs... if it's tight.

I do have a day job that I prolly will never be able to quit.
I play out some and I like it. When I have time and extra cash, I branch out a little, buy some shirts, record some stuff, work on press kits, whatever. I like it and couldn't quit if I tried... but I do the best that I can and it is not a half-assed thing that I do because nothing is good on TV tonight. I put some effort in it and roll with the {censored} when it comes. If somebody screws me, I don't do business with them again.... ever.

You gotta separate yourself from the pack. Maybe that's what the real deal is. Maybe we're gettin tired of the effort that it takes.

What was this thread about again?

[way2fat]

I forsee lower pay for everybody except CEO's.

[squealie]

This thread is starting to make sense now.

[Alan Dunn]

Originally posted by Scafeets At the risk of sounding as old as I am, let me point out that I've been hearing the "death of live music" crap since the early 70s. First it was disco, then videogames, the anti-smoking laws, the Internet, Radio, Record Companies --- wha! wah! waaaaaaaaaaahhhh! And now DWI? Drunk drivers are a scourge on society and need to be incarcerated. When they do show up at gigs, they're the assholes in the back yelling for "Freebird." {censored} 'em. Maybe I'm lucky that I live in an area with a strong live music scene. But I have lived in NYC, Boston and Nashville, and I do travel a lot --- so I know the gigs are out there. Are there opportunities for every doofus with a Strat and 6 guitar lessons under his belt? No. And just because your boyfriend thinks your writing is Really Deep doesn't mean your songs are worth 100 people ponying up 5 clams each on a Saturday night. Being good helps, and hustling has always been a requirement. Sure, you're going to have to deal with bar owners, frat boys, politicians, agents and other assorted posers, wannabes and assholes. This is the Music Business -- what were you expecting? Most of the musicians I know that are complaining about not gettting gigs are playing second rate "original" material that no one is willing to pay to hear. Good, original bands are getting work, building a following, and doing just fine. In fact, they're doing a lot better today than they were 25 years ago, when it cost a fortune to make a decent recording. OK, I feel better now. Let the flaming begin..............

I also have to agree here. When we were doing the cover band stuff I was knocking down around $250.00 a week - end. Then I decided I was going to go big time, moved to Nashville starved for about a year and then started doing the road with developing artists. In Nashville the going rate for a night was $50.00 per member and normally only 4 piece bands. When I went on the road I was started at $300.00 a week on average which was the same as doing 6 nights in town and being in my own bed every night. But the thing was once we got the better gigs we got better pay, better rooms, comp meals, etc.

I guess, after the above rambling, my point would be once I moved back home I was making more on week-end gigs than I was doing it full time. Go fiqure, I don't think that the money has gone down I just think it maintains for long period of times. Clubs paying $350.00 a night for a band will continue until they absolutely have to pay more. As long as there are bands that will take $350.00 a night why would a club/bar etc pay more.

One of the big discussions I remember in Nashville late nights in the studio was " as long as playersl cut each others bottom dollar it will always be dictated by that low ball"

[The*Ataris]

Originally posted by rhat You have a point but you are ignoring the demographics ..... the bulk of the population is middle aged people. They are the onew writing the checks for the DJ at the kids wedding receptions .... they own the bars ... and they have the disposable income and free time. Its a huge segment of the market. They grew up on live bands..... Take a place like bike week .... a middle aged band with beer guts and bald heads that can do a good cover of born to be wild is going to pack a bar ,,,,, death metal and fruity and the blow your buddy need not apply. Music is nothing but marketing .....most bands in my opinion dont know how to market ,, they know how to whine.. and degrade the customer because they cant sell their music. There are all kinds of bands out there ,,,, one needs to look at who has the steady work..... While it may not be glamerous watching a 50 year old do born to be wild ,,, you can bet those guys are playing more and for more money than the kids with their hair died black with a wallet on a chain screaming into a mic with so much effects on their instruments they sound like devils are fuking inside the amp...... gosh i dound like my dad when he heard hendrix lol.....but then the bands that played that didnt make any money either lol. In 1970 there were three things that ususally defined a band that sucked ,,,, they did smoke on the water ,, sunshine of your love and purple haze ........rat

Well obviously the middle-aged cover ban still has its niche. I'm not going to deny that these bands can still play and appeal to certain crowds. I'm trying to make the point that the crowds they appeal to aren't as dedicated at this point...

I kind of feel odd participating in this discussion because it seems everyone is about as old as my parents who probably enjoy watching live music more than anyone else I know that age. My mother will still shell out $100+ to see Fleetwood Mac when they come through no matter who's in the lineup. My father, while never being a musician, taught me everything I know about rock music and watching live bands. He took me to see bands like Van Halen, AC/DC, and Collective Soul before the age of 12 and I'll never forget that...

...but they don't go watch bands every weekend. They have some friends that have had a cover band for a couple years that probably play once month (maybe twice a month in the summer) and they'll probably go see them every other time. My parents don't really go to bars, they're not going to travel a long way to see anyone, and their lives wouldn't be altered if the band decided not to play anymore.

People around my age (21), consequently, live and die with a lot of local bands around here. I'll travel anywhere along the I-25 to watch Laymen Terms any time they play as if it's their last show, and I almost cried when The Gamits broke up. I've watched original club bands consistantly since I was probably 14. I've had the time, energy, and disposable income to do so. Every time I go to something, I notice the crowd getting younger too. The kids still LOVE live music; NOTHING can replace it!

Like Rhat said, the middle-aged band simply needs to find the right niche. I'm sure weddings, street fairs, private parties, and all that are a bunch of fun and pay better than an empty bar. No one wants to watch MY band play that {censored}; they'd rather watch you guys--you're better at it. Gloomy indie rock doesn't really do well at receptions

[way2fat]

A good niche for middle-aged bands is Bluegrass. Some of those festivals are a total blast and the picking is usually first rate.

[Beachbum]

Originally posted by Elbow: "You gotta separate yourself from the pack. Maybe that's what the real deal is. Maybe we're gettin tired of the effort that it takes..."

I think that's the real deal in most business, including the music performance business: separate yourself from the pack. Work your ass off, do whatever you have to do to survive. Some will say you're bringing down the entire industry but I call it competition in the free market, nothing new, just something usually hated. A fact of life.

The ones who get tired of it fade away...

[Scafeets]

Originally posted by ADunn As long as there are bands that will take $350.00 a night why would a club/bar etc pay more. One of the big discussions I remember in Nashville late nights in the studio was " as long as playersl cut each others bottom dollar it will always be dictated by that low ball"

 

 

That's true to a point; but supply and demand still rules. I play in a cover band that makes good money, and in a trio doing originals that's just STARTING to make decent dough after almost a year, and in a fusion jazz band that can't find more than a mediocre-paying gig every six weeks.

 

The cover band -- as described by others on this thread -- is a middle aged bunch of people playing classic rock crowd-pleasers. Club owners love us because we bring in the drinkers, the dance floor is always full and 100+ people always pay the cover charge to hear us. And while we're doing OK, there are other cover bands making $2,000 -3,000 a night. What have they got that we don't? A tolerance for playing either the worst 70s disco or the really lame hits of the 80s. Everyone has their price,

i suppose. While I wouldn't play that stuff, or be in a wedding band, I actually have fun playing "Sweet Home Alabama" and "American Girl."

 

And while I'm having fun, getting paid and drinking free beer, I won't whine about the fact that no one will pay me right for hearing me do originals, or my version of Miles, Chick or the Flecktones. We know if we pay dues long enough, and if the {censored}'s tight, the other bands will start to get more recognition and better gigs.

[gtrbass]

Mr. Bar owner has been crying poor since the dawn of time.

To my knowledge the local Beer distributors haven't slashed prices to give him a break, so why should we?

What draws people to want to go to a bar is a release from the daily grind. The best release bang for the buck is the one that's the most fun. If you figure out how to do that effectively and regularly, you can name your own price. Mr. Bar owner needs you because you are the real draw.

Stand apart by being an attraction. No one cares if you play great AND you're a shoegazer. If you want a room full of people to watch you, give 'em a reason. It don't matter if you're pretty. People sit home and see pretty on TV. They want engaging and entertaining. They want David Lee Roth... larger than life. They want fun and funny. They want to say "Hell Yeah!!!" all at once with a bunch of other people. Don't believe me? Why do you think a Sports Bar is a big business. It's the same damn thang...

As musicians you are engaged by things the average person could care less about. Most people listen with their eyes and partly with their ears. If you suck, no amount of smoke and mirrors will benefit you, but if you're good then make it fun and you will draw and make more money.

A bar ain't supposed to be pretty... Its an environment to be naughty and blow off steam, even if it's just a fantasy. Oooohhh, Milton's pretending to be a bad boy, but in the morning he'll be back to looking for his stapler. That's what sold a boat load of gangsta rap sh*t to white suburban kids trying to be "fly for a white guy".

America is a shadow of it's former self. It's all Politically Correct and Jenny Craig down at the Walmart ... sanitized for your protection. Live music is and should be the opposite of that. It's supposed to be a release from the daily grind.

Great Rock and Country is nearly outlaw... You should market it that way too. "We're not sanitized for your protection. We got Cowboys, strippers with big fake tits, and blow. Enter at your own risk." It's lifestyle marketing, even if the lifestyle is just a fantasy for the night.

Montgomery Gentry's "Hell Yeah" says it all.

Hell yeah! Turn it up! Right on!
Hell yeah! Sounds good! Sing that song!
Guitar man playin' all night long
Take me back to where the music hit me
Life was good and love was easy

[elbow]

Originally posted by gtrbass Mr. Bar owner has been crying poor since the dawn of time. To my knowledge the local Beer distributors haven't slashed prices to give him a break, so why should we? What draws people to want to go to a bar is a release from the daily grind. The best release bang for the buck is the one that's the most fun. If you figure out how to do that effectively and regularly, you can name your own price. Mr. Bar owner needs you because you are the real draw. Stand apart by being an attraction. No one cares if you play great AND you're a shoegazer. If you want a room full of people to watch you, give 'em a reason. It don't matter if you're pretty. People sit home and see pretty on TV. They want engaging and entertaining. They want David Lee Roth... larger than life. They want fun and funny. They want to say "Hell Yeah!!!" all at once with a bunch of other people. Don't believe me? Why do you think a Sports Bar is a big business. It's the same damn thang... As musicians you are engaged by things the average person could care less about. Most people listen with their eyes and partly with their ears. If you suck, no amount of smoke and mirrors will benefit you, but if you're good then make it fun and you will draw and make more money. A bar ain't supposed to be pretty... Its an environment to be naughty and blow off steam, even if it's just a fantasy. Oooohhh, Milton's pretending to be a bad boy, but in the morning he'll be back to looking for his stapler. That's what sold a boat load of gangsta rap sh*t to white suburban kids trying to be "fly for a white guy". America is a shadow of it's former self. It's all Politically Correct and Jenny Craig down at the Walmart ... sanitized for your protection. Live music is and should be the opposite of that. It's supposed to be a release from the daily grind. Great Rock and Country is nearly outlaw... You should market it that way too. "We're not sanitized for your protection. We got Cowboys, strippers with big fake tits, and blow. Enter at your own risk." It's lifestyle marketing, even if the lifestyle is just a fantasy for the night. Montgomery Gentry's "Hell Yeah" says it all. Hell yeah! Turn it up! Right on! Hell yeah! Sounds good! Sing that song! Guitar man playin' all night long Take me back to where the music hit me Life was good and love was easy

 

 

+1...... agreed....

[BlueStrat]

A good lot of this depends on where you live.

[SanDiego333]

Originally posted by Lee Knight Think how it must have been to be a Circus Entertainer 100 years ago. You were a star. You'd travel to cities and towns where people were excited to see what you do. Think of a Circus Entertainer now... Things change. The Circus remains but it's lights are pretty dim.

 

 

While I understand and agree with what you're saying, the truth remains that those who survive and prosper find ways to overcome. Case in point: http://www.cirquedusoleil.com/CirqueDuSoleil/en/default.htm

 

For us musicians though, does the cirque dus ole mean pay to play, DJ, or finding new or different ways to entertain. It's a maze, for sure. And times have definitely changed.

[Roy Brooks]

I have always been able to find somewhere to play music and get paid for it. And I plan on doing it for a long time to come. You just have to believe in what your thing is.