Members LiveMusic Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 I hope many of you will weigh in. I heard Louisiana has a bill being considered that would make DWI, second-offense something really, really bad. I forget what it was but it was far worse than it is now. DWI laws are knocking a huge dent in people going on. It might even be the #1 reason musician's pay sucks. Now, I'm gigging with two other guys but I badly want to add one and preferably two more to get the sound I want. But heck, that sure cuts the pay! Of course, then you have karaoke, huge sound sytems, people "cocooning" for reasons from everything to high gas prices to social factors. Do you foresee pay declining more? I can't imagine why it would go UP.
Members basschaplain Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by LiveMusic I hope many of you will weigh in. DWI laws are knocking a huge dent in people going on. It might even be the #1 reason musician's pay sucks.
Members cherri Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 There are so many bands out there that are willing to perform for free or even PAY to play, that they are undercutting the whole market. A venue owner doesn't care THAT much about the band itself, they want cheap entertainment. So if quality Band A insists on $100 bucks per member, and Band C comes along and offers to play for $20 bucks and a couple of beers, guess who's getting the gig?
Members Spynal Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by cherri There are so many bands out there that are willing to perform for free or even PAY to play, that they are undercutting the whole market. A venue owner doesn't care THAT much about the band itself, they want cheap entertainment. So if quality Band A insists on $100 bucks per member, and Band C comes along and offers to play for $20 bucks and a couple of beers, guess who's getting the gig? +1 That's really what it boils down to. Sure, other factors weigh in minutely, but as cherri stated, it's a flooded, talentless market.
Members THX1138 Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by cherri There are so many bands out there that are willing to perform for free or even PAY to play, that they are undercutting the whole market. A venue owner doesn't care THAT much about the band itself, they want cheap entertainment. So if quality Band A insists on $100 bucks per member, and Band C comes along and offers to play for $20 bucks and a couple of beers, guess who's getting the gig? Thats also the same reason so many venues shut down after awhile. You get what you pay for, and {censored} entertainment doesn't get people through the door.
Members zookie Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 It's a tangled web. The DWI aspect hints at how much we've moved away from being able to walk to your nearest watering hole. With McMansions being constructed well outside city limits, where it's all just a bedroom community with no local identity, you have entertainment facilities limited to strip malls. As the small places in towns buckle, the franchise takes over along the highways. More than a dip in entertainment trends, I think we're seeing a fundamental change away from being able to take a stroll downtown, grab supper and then take in a show. Now you load into the minivan and drive an hour to the nearest "thriving" live music venue. It's a shrinking market. And, yes, with people paying to play, how much lower can it get?
Members Beachbum Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by cherri There are so many bands out there that are willing to perform for free or even PAY to play, that they are undercutting the whole market. A venue owner doesn't care THAT much about the band itself, they want cheap entertainment. So if quality Band A insists on $100 bucks per member, and Band C comes along and offers to play for $20 bucks and a couple of beers, guess who's getting the gig? Competition in a free market economy. This happens in nearly every industry. Should ours be exempt? The demand for live entertainment, bands, solo artists, etc., is cyclical - it goes up and down. People like one form of entertainment for a while and then their tastes shift to some other form of entertainment. Right now at a venue I'm involved with the 'thrash metal' bands are all the rage with young people. Kids think nothing of shelling out $5.00 a head by the hundreds to watch & listen (listen?) to these bands go nuts on stage with instruments. Can't hear the vocals at all, the rest of it is noise, but it really brings in the bacon ($$) right now. To say the venue owner doesn't care about quality entertainment is misleading... the venue owner wants what the crowd wants, quality aside. Great topic.
Members LiveMusic Posted March 21, 2006 Author Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by basschaplain I'm not condoning drinking/driving but surely you do know that DWI laws have caused less going out on the town. And with less people going out, pay drops. Again, I'm just pointing out a truth. It's a big factor.
Members Kevin T Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Beachbum Competition in a free market economy.Unfortunately no other market has competition willing to give the product away week after week. This aint car sales aint like any other market so the rules of a free market dont exactly apply.This happens in nearly every industry. Should ours be exempt?Yes! I don't think this (local live music) is an industry at all. It's more like theatre it's art! No? The demand for live entertainment, bands, solo artists, etc., is cyclical - it goes up and down. People like one form of entertainment for a while and then their tastes shift to some other form of entertainment. Right now at a venue I'm involved with the 'thrash metal' bands are all the rage with young people. Kids think nothing of shelling out $5.00 a head by the hundreds to watch & listen (listen?) to these bands go nuts on stage with instruments. Can't hear the vocals at all, the rest of it is noise, but it really brings in the bacon ($$) right now. To say the venue owner doesn't care about quality entertainment is misleading... the venue owner wants what the crowd wants, quality aside.Great topic.
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 21, 2006 Moderators Posted March 21, 2006 As sad as it seems... I honestly think the days of a variety of live entertainment are over. I started out playing 5 nights a week right out of high school. That was the 80's. People went out... a lot of people went out. A Tuesday night you could see a light crowd of 100 people and the weekends were maxed with lines outside. I stopped depending on it for my living '93. Things had changed and it wasn't for the better. There are always the acts that are so unstoppable that will always work, but that is rarer each year. Think how it must have been to be a Circus Entertainer 100 years ago. You were a star. You'd travel to cities and towns where people were excited to see what you do. Think of a Circus Entertainer now... Things change. The Circus remains but it's lights are pretty dim.
Members FlogRock Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by zookie It's a tangled web. The DWI aspect hints at how much we've moved away from being able to walk to your nearest watering hole. With McMansions being constructed well outside city limits, where it's all just a bedroom community with no local identity, you have entertainment facilities limited to strip malls. As the small places in towns buckle, the franchise takes over along the highways. More than a dip in entertainment trends, I think we're seeing a fundamental change away from being able to take a stroll downtown, grab supper and then take in a show. Now you load into the minivan and drive an hour to the nearest "thriving" live music venue. True. In Europe, it seems to be much more normal to be able to use public transport, to use a bike, or simply to live close to the city center. Many people don't even have a car. This seems to be impossible in the US... I'm also surprised that only recently you have serious DUI laws. I think the new DUI laws are good, it's the dependency on cars that needs to be changed (for more reasons than just this one )...
Members FlogRock Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by cherri There are so many bands out there that are willing to perform for free or even PAY to play, that they are undercutting the whole market. A venue owner doesn't care THAT much about the band itself, they want cheap entertainment. So if quality Band A insists on $100 bucks per member, and Band C comes along and offers to play for $20 bucks and a couple of beers, guess who's getting the gig? I think these bands that are willing to play for free have always been there. But maybe they get gigs now because the audience doesn't care/doesn't recognize quality anymore? As long as there's some noise in the background...
Members squealie Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight Things change. The Circus remains but it's lights are pretty dim. Well said. People don't need bands and bars as a catalyst for hanging and drinking, and {censored}ing anymore. They have MMRPGs, and MySpace, and orgies in Mom's basement while she's on her cruise. Music is background noise while the REAL entertainment is going on, like video games, or snowboarding, or video-snowboarding. So what. It's only music. It sucks for us, performers, but does it really mean anything in the big scheme of society? I know, I know, society needs art, and live performers...blah blah.... They will always be around in some sense. But the day of hearing Whipping Post, being butchered in every bar, every Saturday night, is coming to an end.
Members rhat Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 The one thing that i think has really cut into band gigs is DJ's. But then its understandable due to the fact that there is a real lack of decent affordable cover bands to play wedding receptions, etc. Typically alot of bands dont have the ability to play to a group of people that range in age from 15 to 60. The lower priced bands are all doing nitch music poorly or awful original stuff .... that doesnt really sell to a mainstream event like a wedding reception ... at least with a DJ you get music that they can dance to. The bench of suitable bands in reality is pretty thin.... Who knows maybe things will change as we get re entry guys back into doing covers ..... in the meantime ,, the DJS are going to keep cleaning most bands clocks. I dont think its a money issue ,, its more of a talent and song list issue. rat
Members Beachbum Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 "Competition in a free market economy. Unfortunately no other market has competition willing to give the product away week after week. This aint car sales aint like any other market so the rules of a free market dont exactly apply." Kevin, The rules of free market don't exactly apply? Tell me... how do they apply then? If not exactly? (The rules of free market do exactly apply, although not every one wants them to apply. We 'play for pay' musicians are in the 'Entertainment Service' industry. Keep that in mind.)
Members DanteRTS Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 My first question is what kind of band? In an original band? Hell, has there ever been pay? haha. Seriously, there is some money to be made, but mainly covering expenses. Far from quitting your 8-5. In a cover band? In a good one, sure. Find a niche, hone your "entertainment value", and you will do just fine; there's always a campus nearby. I'm admittingly a rookie in the big picture, but have been involved in our local market for a little while. I see a lot of what works and what doesn't. However, I mostly see the original band's world. My bottom line thought, while there are many variables there is one absolute. People will always embrace good music. Many embrace crappy music along with it, granted. But truley good music will always have it's place.
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 21, 2006 Moderators Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by DanteRTS My bottom line thought, while there are many variables there is one absolute. People will always embrace good music. Many embrace crappy music along with it, granted. But truley good music will always have it's place. Well yes and no. You better be prepared to do it for the art alone. If there's an expectation that someone gives a crap, then there's a big disappointment ahead. Do it for the art, and all is it should be. Those who dig it, dig it. Do with any expectations at your own peril.
Members squealie Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by DanteRTS In an original band? Hell, has there ever been pay? haha. Seriously, there is some money to be made, but mainly covering expenses. Far from quitting your 8-5. I've known all-original acts making 4K-10K a night...unsigned.
Members DanteRTS Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Good point. But hell, there's always going to be a certain amount of pride involved in what we do. We want people to react to our art. Otherwise, we'd still be playing in our bedrooms. But, I agree with having a solid understanding of what your goals are, and the legitimacy of them actually being reached.
Members DanteRTS Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Ok, so I need to figure out how to use the "quoted by" tool. . . Squealie, sweet! Guess I was more thinking in a local market situation. Or maybe you were, and I need you as a booking agent!
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 21, 2006 Moderators Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by DanteRTS Ok, so I need to figure out how to use the "quoted by" tool. . . Just use the button at the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote and it will open up their quote and the window for your next post. You can edit the quote as well, as you can see I've done to your quote above.
Members DanteRTS Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight Just use the button at the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote and it will open up their quote and the window for your next post. You can edit the quote as well, as you can see I've done to your quote above. Nice! Thanks for helping the nubee.
Members The*Ataris Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Who are we talking about here? Cover bands or original acts? People who regularly watch live music range in ages from about 15-30 and aren't interested in watching middle-aged dudes play "Born to be Wild". They're following original bands who play once or twice a month... People who go out to drink and dance don't watch cover bands either. Hip hop killed that for you... Were just at a weird crossroads because there are so many baby boomers still trying to make money playing music with more and more young people taking up instruments everyday. The underground music scene is doing very well right now. Hundreds of young people show up to watch good local acts around here whenever they play. They buy CD's. t-shirts, stickers, drinks, whatever. If you're not catering to this crowd, then you better be doing it for fun...
Members BeauNasty Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Sheesh! I dunno man. Make sure you negotiate a bonus structure. If you do your street team work correctly, this bull{censored} you're worrying about won't have any significance.
Members squealie Posted March 21, 2006 Members Posted March 21, 2006 Originally posted by DanteRTS Squealie, sweet! Guess I was more thinking in a local market situation. Or maybe you were, and I need you as a booking agent! {censored} dude, we've been modelling our band after those bands for a long time. And it sure as hell aint easy. The key ingredient we are missing, is 100 strippers showing up at every gig. Once we get that....um....pegged.....it's smooth sailing from there.
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