Playing perfect, or visually performing?

[Prog]

Learn to play it.

 

Then, learn to perform it.

 

Why would anyone sacrifice either?

[axe2 2001]

Originally posted by paostby Learn to play it. Then, learn to perform it. Why would anyone sacrifice either?

 

Agreed. I strive for both. People may not care about technical playing but they'll hear a bad note, or a bad solo and timing problems. And it looks bad if a part is blown trying to show off. Sloppyness doesn't always fall into the mistake category. Some guys are sloppy on purpose.. Young, Richards. I think drummers have a higher standard to hold. Timing affects the entire band, not just if one guy blew a part. As for showmanship, I figure i'm gettin paid to entertain. People paid a cover to see a live band. My first job is to play music. Anything after that has to come from the heart as well as my playing. If I jump up on a table for a solo,it's because thats what I felt like doing and I better pull it off good. Not because thats what i'm supposed to do in that song. It can be different for different bands and players. At some point a band, and the individual needs to determine what kind of band or player they are. Showbands practice all the staged stuff. And people don't expect a blues guitarist to be hangin from the rafters playing with his teeth. And don't say hendrix was a blues guy, he was, and one of the BEST, IMHO, but when strats were a burnin, he was center ring right next to the lion taimer! Without that would we still be talking about him 40 years later? I ask that as an honest question.

[twostone]

This is a great thread, here's what we do we'll learn our songs, play the {censored} out of them.Then we have a mirror in a practice room and learn our stage move on the easy tunes we've learned to play, Because alot of the {censored} we play is hard as hell to bust out moves and nail the riffs down tight.So we decided that we'll go crazy on the easy songs that we can play with our eyes closed then on the hard song the singer is the one who's able to do the stage moves it works out pretty good so far. Also adding lighting effects fog machines really helps contribute to a band. I've had alot of people say they loved the lights and the fog. kind of set the mood of the song.

[Aunt Flo]

 

Originally posted by paostby Learn to play it. Then, learn to perform it. Why would anyone sacrifice either?

 

 

We don't on purpose. What I'm saying is you can stand in one place and not move all night and concentrate on making every note perfect, or you can move and run around and interact with the crowd. It depends on the crowd, the band, the venue and the music, but it's what we do. Everyone tries not to make any mistakes, but I'll take our singer who goes out into the crowd during songs and may miss a verse, etc, than a singer who stands motionless behind a mic stand all night. Who wants to see that?

[DanteRTS]

Great responses everyone!

I agree, in a perfect world, both would be perfect. However, I believe in reality, there is going to be a give and take. Where your personal (or band as a whole) is drawn.

 

We attempt to recreate a live situaion in our practice room. Full volume, miced everything through monitors, lights, "rocking out", live breaks, ect. However, I'm not sure you can ever prepare for the energy of a live audience, and how that makes you feel. For me, that's why I do it. To have fans sweating right up front with you. Giving back all the energy you're giving out. Nothing like it.

 

But something we do, that maybe others do, is have "sectionals". We'll break a song down to 1 insturment at a time. Guitar with Drums. Bass with Drums. Guitar 2 with Drums. We run vocals with the bass. That way you can catch any dirt otherwise covered up by the wash we call live sound. haha. It really keeps us tight. Oh yeah, to a click as well.

 

Thanks for the thoughts!

[RupertB]

The best rock bands provide a balance of these elements. The style and setting are going to have a lot to do with how much emphasis you put on either one.

 

It sounds like your bandmates are just trying to get things really tight. Nothing wrong with that. If you have to stand still for a few seconds to get a tricky part right, then IMO you should do so until you're practiced enough to do both. You've got the rest of the night for theatrics.

 

Giving the audience a show is an important element of your performance and shouldn't be ignored. I don't ask that anyone play perfectly but there is a "slop threshold" that, if you cross it, you will look like a real ass-clown jumping around on-stage. Strive to do BOTH well.

[GOSG]

 

Originally posted by Beachbum Visual when playing live. Playing perfect when in the studio.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I remember hearing people (including radio commentators) complain about how "bad" that "The Rolling Stones" sounded at the Super Bowl halftime this year. Meanwhile I was watching the show and thinking: "This is GREAT a real band playing live and a mix that was not supplemented with backing tracks...YEAH!"

 

Live music should always offer the possibility of random genius...or train wrecks. It is sad to see the public grow so accustomed to hearing lip-sync tracks that when they hear an unenhanced band they think that the band or the mix sucks!

[GOSG]

Originally posted by HuskerDude For 99% of the crowd, all they're listening for is the kick and snare, and maybe the vocals. That's all they care about. The other 1% are the opening bands.

 

LOL!

 

As the guys in "Spinal Tap" said: That's too much f-ing perspective." (Loosely quoted)

[cornfordsnob]

i totally agree with THIS post, to add to that, i'd suggest that the music industry has assumed what is "best" for people and pushed the public in the wrong direction...

 

that direction being, doctored up, synthetic, dishonest live "performances".

 

I want to hear the real thing, the great musicians to me are those that sound better live than on the CD.

 

 

Originally posted by GOSG Agreed. I remember hearing people (including radio commentators) complain about how "bad" that "The Rolling Stones" sounded at the Super Bowl halftime this year. Meanwhile I was watching the show and thinking: "This is GREAT a real band playing live and a mix that was not supplemented with backing tracks...YEAH!" Live music should always offer the possibility of random genius...or train wrecks. It is sad to see the public grow so accustomed to hearing lip-sync tracks that when they hear an unenhanced band they think that the band or the mix sucks!

 

[Roy Brooks]

Most clubs don't really pay enough to get a band that also dances around and stuff.

[gtrbass]

That would be a show plus music, and that's extra...

 

Ohh, you wanted us to bring amps? and a PA? that's extra too.

[cornfordsnob]

dude, you're too busy making money to be hanging out with all us losers here on HC...

 

go hob knob with the big dogs.. up on the mountain...

 

 

Originally posted by gtrbass That would be a show plus music, and that's extra... Ohh, you wanted us to bring amps? and a PA? that's extra too.

 

[gtrbass]

They won't have me anymore, so I'm slumming (Ha ha)

 

The point is not many of them are making money anymore either.

 

This topic is actually quite relevant to me. The drummer in one of the bands I play in is very keen on precision over performance. The rest of us disagree. We want to play as well as we can, but not at the expense of the entertainment value to the audience. I guess the challenge is to meet both criteria. If you ask me, the scales definitely tip in favor of performance.

 

I have a topic similar to this, but for another thread.

[The*Ataris]

Christ...

 

Let me bring something up; I'm SO confused...

 

As I've mentioned a few times on these boards, I just joined a band and they happen to be really big on the whole "visual performance" thing (ok, cool...). Well, we're prepping a set for an upcoming show (still writing songs for it) and the other guitar players stops us right in the middle of a song...

 

"Dudes, a rock jump would be totally cool right here!" Singer and bass player are all about it, and for the remainder of the song they do their precious rock jump after this pause/rest.

 

I was in a state of disbelief. Granted, I come from a music scene (much different than them) that laughs at overzealous stage antics, but these guys are practicing this {censored}!!! I have nothing against become overwhelmed with energy and emotion and having to release that somehow, but rehearsing it?!? How big of poseurs do you have to be?

 

Here's the pisser: guitar player calls me up on saturday (from a bar ) at 1:00 AM and tells me how the band was disappointed with my "confidence" at the last practice and begins talking about "professionalism". Professionalism?!? Whoa there!! Let's talk about your guitar tone, or how you tune about every seven songs, or how you turn up so loud during practice my ears ring even with plugs, or how you mother{censored}ers were ALL 45 minutes late to that practice and kept me waiting in one of the sketchiest parking lots in existance...

 

Again, I couldn't believe it. I told him I couldn't talk and I haven't spoken to any of them since.

 

I'm thinking about quitting over this and I'm not the type that's easily offended. I don't really "need" this band and there are a few other factors involved, but what the hell is up with this?

 

I make good eye contact, move around, swing my guitar, like a good stance, and am a habitual head bobber. I've never had anybody tell me I don't hold up the "visual" part of a performance...

 

I'm just Shocked...

[Prog]

Originally posted by The*Ataris I'm just Shocked...

They're more show oriented than music. Their balance is not what you're after. Personally, I don't think one can try hard enough to fulfill the music. I do think that bands can try too hard on the show.

 

Local bands acting like they are pro's looks ridiculous. These guys sound like a good laugh, to me.

[DanteRTS]

I hear ya brotha.

 

I think there is something to be said for the visual element. There are those that stay on one side of the spectrum saying anything practiced is fake. And there is of course validity in that. Personally, I don't mind it. Now, pulling it off...that's another story. Story of the Year...catch their live show. Too much stage antics? I guess that depends on your taste. I couldn't keep my eyes off of the show. And they have worked out jumps/spins/ect.

 

With that being said...showing up to practice 45 min late THEN calling you out on professionalism? Get a F-ing life!!! However, too many time things get boiled down to a cock showing contest. "You have no right to call me out if you've done this...blah blah". Think above that. Does he have any validity to his concern, regardless if he was late and all that? Look at it that way. He may not, but people tend to get Holier Than Thou is situations like that.

 

Anyway, like Papstby said, they're just not working with the same balance as you are. Discuss it, find where each is willing to bend, and see how that works with the band as a whole. Because that's where it matters. The BAND.

 

My .02

[Rich4Once]

I saw a band play last night...they were kind of pop/ska and if they had a chick singer would sound a lot like No Doubt. Anyway, there wasn't a lot of hopping around, but every once in a while, on cue, they would do some schtick together. I didn't like it only because it didn't look natural. They're standing still, then all of a sudden they're jumping and spinning, then back to standing still.

 

Musically though, they were very good. The bass player was doing a lot of moving bass parts and singing harmonies...he never dropped a note. I stopped him on a break and told him that I was impressed with him. Doing the type of thing he was doing for a little while is one thing, but he was consistent all night.

 

He didn't move much though, but no demerits since he was so busy at the mic.

[Roy Brooks]

Alot of the stuff I play onstage is improvised. I just play. I look like I am doing my job up there.

[Janx]

Here's an interesting take:

 

I got a friend that plays drums in a 2-in-1 band. They use one band name when they are a "tribute/cover" band (aka, plays one artist). They use a different name when they're doing they're originals-only band.

 

It's the same guys in both bands, except for swapping out a lead guitarist. Same singer, rythm, bass, and drummer.

 

Playing-wise, both versions of this band are good. Material-wise, they're very similar in style. Visually, the originals version is better. They're lead guitarist is more active on stage (he's also a bit younger than the rest). The crowd reaction was much greater with the originals band, partly because of the increased action of the lead guitarist.

 

Now the bassist and rythm (can't spell today...) guy don't just stand around, but they're really not as showy.

 

I did find this particular group of players to be a good example of how visual performace affects the crowd.

 

I think a number of bands could use some advisement in stage performance. I'm no expert, but a lot of bands need help in style and visuals. I've seen bands where 1 member just doesn't belong, due to clothes worn. I've seen bands where stage antics are overdone. Some where lack of stage activity is huring them. It seems like a book or video could be done on the subject...

 

Janx

[Roy Brooks]

I gig pretty regularly between three or four different bands and a couple duos. We get the work. And I assume that the bands I play with get the work because we play music well. The reason I say that is because in practically every situation I am currently working in we literally just get up there and play. In fact only one of the bands uses a set list. There is no dancing around onstage and not much in between tunes banter. That doesn't necessarily mean that we don't move around or that we ignore the audience. We just all seem to really enjoy playing music so that is what we do. And the movements that are done onstage are a result of us being lost in the music.

I don't really play in bands right now that play things the same way each time. Most of us are pretty skilled improvisors and prefer to play that way. I personally try to play well and find ways to make what I play more interesting to me, which I have said in other posts. But there is nothing anal retentive about my approach. Most of the time I am just reacting to the moment and listening to what the other folks I am playing with are playing.

Though I don't really see anything wrong with putting on a show if that is what you want to do with your time onstage. We actually put on a show by playing our instruments well and interacting with each other. That is a show to the folks who are really into music. None of us are avid dancers. So any choreography isn't going to work. However, I am not personally against showmanship and entertainment. I just happen to think of myself as a musician first are foremost. I am almost always hired by bands or asked to play because of my guitar and lap steel skills and the fact that I am very flexible, can get along with other band members, and have something to say musically.

None of the bands I play in normally do most requested crowd favorites. Not that we refuse to play them though. Sometimes I think it is cool to play "Sweet Home Alabama" because so many other folks won't play it. But every band I play with has a pretty extensive repertoire of a wide range of material. And it hardly ever comes up that we have to play the expected barroom standards. We just don't play in those kinds of rooms that much. We don't play in sports bars or clubs for dancing. There just isn't a whole lot of pressure to be any particular thing in the situations that the bands I olay in play at. We almost always tend to find ourselves playing in places where folks are there to listen to music. The audiences at the shows I play, however, do not really represent the "general public" in their musical tastes. Though at least in my observations it seems like the general public are merely consumers and not really the kinds of folks who are really into music unless it is something they have heard a bunch of times. Those folks aren't the people I feel like I have to please, especially if those folks don't go to the places I play.

I tend to get bored with listening to or watching a live band if the music isn't that interesting or if it is the same old stuff that you expect a band in a bar to play, regardless of whether the band has stage presence or not. What will keep me there is interesting music played well by musicians. Though I will still stay and watch a band that has alot of visuals if they are playing music that does it for me.

However, one of my most favorite bands to see live is NRBQ. Those cats can all play really well on more than one instrument and make some very interesting music that is different every time. But they also bounce around alot. Though it doesn't look at all like it is put on. They truly appear to be having a really good time up there.

[stephenslr]

 

Originally posted by DanteRTS We're not signed, but we consider ourselves setting ourselves up for a deal.

 

 

Make your recording as technically perfect as you can play.

 

When you play live make sure you put on a good show but I think if you are that good the general public won't know a few mistakes here and there as long as it is only a few.

 

s

[RockViolin]

 

Originally posted by DanteRTS Being in a band with 2 marching drum corp geeks, I sometimes find myself getting called out for dropping parts live. When I say dropping, I mean not playing perfect. "Dude, that's a dotted 1/8th!", or "you were behind the beat. You need to be on top of the beat". I used to say "Who cares?" I personally feel a better visual performance is more important than playing studio perfect live. I know you can take it too far, and doing both at a high level should be the goal. But seriously, how many shows do people leave unimpressed visually versus feeling let down because a band didn't pull off exact recorded parts to perfection? We even had the producer of our EP bring it up. Telling us that, in the mindset of a total visual rock show, we play our guitars too high (he called it, approaching the Nashville Necklace). When we expalined you just can't physically pull off some of the riffs we play when it's at our knees. He said, "do you think the audience cares more abou that than looking cool?" Of course we said "But that's an essential part of our sound", but he did have a point. Most people want to get rocked, not be impressed by the finger stretching riff you wrote. With most of us being musicians, we're a bit jaded. But coming from a general listener, I tend to believe they'd rather get their face rocked off than notice the guitar part in measure 3 of the bridge didn't line up with that 1 kick drum note. I understand the need to shoot for doing both great. But when push comes to shove, I'm going to slop a part a bit in light of giving the crowd something to visually remember. So...please debate away.

 

 

No debate needed.

 

Balance.

 

Be Both.

 

Great all the time!

 

Don't be late or early.

 

No excuses!!!!!!