How many band members should be present at mixing?

[brassic]

Is it better to just have one or two representatives of the band present, or the whole band? I'm slightly nervous because we're mixing a couple of tracks today and I've opted not to sit in. Mainly this is because I've been devoting a huge amount of time to the band and I need some time to myself and just need a break.

 

I feel I'm shirking my responsibilty here a bit (plus I usually have to fight to make sure they don't put my guitars too low in the mix ), but on the other hand, whenever the entire band has sat in, it just seems to take forever but to no good end.

 

So with mixing, do you tend to look at it as a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth, or should it be a team effort?

[srsfallriver]

Originally posted by brassic Is it better to just have one or two representatives of the band present, or the whole band? I'm slightly nervous because we're mixing a couple of tracks today and I've opted not to sit in. Mainly this is because I've been devoting a huge amount of time to the band and I need some time to myself and just need a break. I feel I'm shirking my responsibilty here a bit (plus I usually have to fight to make sure they don't put my guitars too low in the mix ), but on the other hand, whenever the entire band has sat in, it just seems to take forever but to no good end. So with mixing, do you tend to look at it as a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth, or should it be a team effort?

 

That's a tough question. You don't want too many people at a mix because it can take focus off the work. The problem with that is that there will always be someone in the band unhappy with the final mix. As a bassist, I'm always fighting to hear more bass (for some reason many engineers hate bass ). If I'm not present for mix-down I make it clear to who will be what I want beforehand.

[brassic]

Originally posted by srsfallriver As a bassist, I'm always fighting to hear more bass (for some reason many engineers hate bass ).

 

I have the exact opposite problem - we have TWO bassists in the band (we're a bit "art rock") and a keyboard player who plays a novation bass station. So I'm always fighting for more guitar.

 

I phoned them earlier and just said "More guitar!" I don't even need to hear it to know that the guitars need to come up...

[tremolo531]

Usually someone is going to be upset with the mixing. Try to equalize everything out so it's balanced.

[Blackwatch]

I went through this with my bass player (on my songs) Good luck. (We're not friends any more)

 

This is the luxury of having a producer.

[Beachbum]

 

Originally posted by Blackwatch I went through this with my bass player (on my songs) Good luck. (We're not friends any more) This is the luxury of having a producer.

 

 

This is the luxury of having a producer, exactly.

 

Someone who will hear, and concentrate on, the whole picture instead of individual instruments.

[Marlin in Minn]

IMHO, none of the band members should be present..

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I'm with Marlin. Ordinarily none of the band members should be present, until the very end of the mix. As an engineer, I can say that having the band there is VERY distracting. There's a lot of stuff that goes on during mix that's either extremely tedious, or it will make the band nervous because they think some intermediate stage of things is how it's going to end up sounding. There are also some musicians who freak out if they hear their own tracks soloed... etc. It's just NOT a good idea for them to be there! In fact a good many "famous" mix engineers simply won't allow it.

 

Just let your mix engineer do his/her job and then give your input as to any changes you need, after the band's had a chance to live with it a bit.

 

If the band insists on having somebody there it should really only be one person, two at most. And if there are two, make sure they're two people who are relatively on the same page and won't fight about stuff - and make sure you don't talk to each other or do anything to distract the engineer when they're working.

[THBv2.0]

I like to be present during some of the mix down sessions, but not all of them, and I don't want my band mates to be there at all. Time is money, and every time someone says "can I hear that again" or "I'd like to hear more bass/drum/whatever" it costs me money. If you've got a producer, let 'em produce.

[patvalley]

None until right before the tracks are finalized, then maybe just the 'leader' of the group and another member.

 

Let a fresh set of trained ears handle your songs. Unless you have some perfect mecca vision of how your song should be, chances are your involvement will ultimately hurt the track. After all, your fans will not be familar with the song at first, and neither will the engineer. But let both of them grow with it and take it to their own hearts.

 

At some point you have to let go of your creative control a bit and let someone else translate it.

 

it's late, I'm rambling.

[Lee Flier]

Of course none of this applies to me personally since I AM our engineer, and quite often one or both of my bandmates are at the mix sessions, and we rarely have any issues with them distracting me or us disagreeing on what should happen. But we're weird. Don't try this at home.

[brassic]

Hmm. That's what I suggested - letting the engineer do his thing till the very end, then having one or two of us come down for the last hour or so. Yesterday three of them were there. I am afraid to hear the results.

[FlogRock]

Short answer: first none (provided you have a competent engineer), then one or two, the ones that have a good ear for the overall picture.

 

 

Long answer: the way we mixed our CD (a couple of bands ago) was really ideal, and led to great results. For every track, we picked a track from a CD with great production that we wanted our track to sound like. We gave these tracks to the engineer, and he used this to get a basic first mix. Setting levels, EQs, compression, reverbs, panning similar to these target tracks. If you have a competent engineer, at this point your mix will already sound a lot better than many amateur recordings (i.e. recordings mixed by the band members themselves). Then one guy from the band with a good ear for the overall picture came in (me ), and suggested some small changes, and added 'creativity' to the mix. Like adding some delays, filters etc.

 

Then the whole band gets this mix on a tape and judges it (listening to it in different environments, e.g. in the car). The bassist then says 'more bass', drummer days 'more drums', etc, but you ignore that. If there are some useful comments use this for the final mixing session, preferably at least a couple of days later.

 

We got great results this way.

 

Of course you need someone with an ear for the overall sound, and you don't know who that is in advance (though here's a hint: it's not the guy who always turns himself up too loud ). Also, if you envision a totally unique sound for your CD this won't work, but that's probably not the case.

[twostone]

Last arguement I had was over the mix with the guitarist I use to play with we both went our seperate ways. Since then I've learned let the pro's handle that end of it works out better for the bandmates also adding the producer will bring out alot better recordings.I haven't seen an estiblished band without a producer yet.

[Scheming Demon]

My original band works a little different. We're usually all present for the mix, however the engineer is left alone to mix while we watch television, eat or whatever.

 

If each musician has specific things in mind that is communicated to the engineer. Usually the engineer will call each musician in at a certain point to eq, answer questions or help as requested. We also bring in reference CD's for overall EQ and balance that we'd like for our material.

 

When the engineer is done with the mix, we all listen to it on various media, boom box, stereo, car, etc. Then we each make comments on what small changes to make (if any). Sometimes a small discussion will ensue but it is usually pretty quick.

 

We are fairly experienced and go into the studio knowing exactly what we want for the final result. Engineers have made suggestions and for the most part we accept them.

 

The biggest thing is finding an engineer who is into your style of music. Otherwise it will be a waste of time for all involved.

[headpiecepuzzle]

I think most things have already been covered in this thread, but I do have one thing to add (Scheming mentioned it):

 

Make sure your engineer is a fan of and understands your style of music. This is imperitive if you want your mix to come out sounding anything like you envision. Nothing is worse than taking your metal songs to some old dude who's spent the last ten years mixing self-produced pop records made by youth-group pastors. In that event they're going to have absolutely no clue what the status quo is for mixing your type of music and you're going to have tiny, brittle guitars, disembodied bass, quacky drums, WAY LOUD vocals and reverb and chorus on almost everything. I'm exaggerating but you see where I'm going with this.

 

If you can't find an engineer who gets what you do, you HAVE to have people present, and maybe even be a bit hands-on with him. That way even if the mix is less than great later, you only have yourselves to blame. It's your money and ultimately your call on how the final result is going to turn out.

 

Now if you're music is in the hands of a pro who gets what you do, lay off and let them do their job, just as everyone else in this thread has said. I'm not disagreeing with everyone here at all - just throwing out a small dislaimer!

[MrKnobs]

It would be insane to let any engineer do a final without either (a) the producer or (b) the musician in charge / bandleader there.

 

As a guy who does a lot of final mixes, I get it in the ballpark until I think it sounds great, then get the final word from the producer or whatever the person is called who's paying for the session.

 

Essential understanding: THE PERSON WHO PAYS FOR THE SESSION or his/her designate has the final say on the mix, and decides whether others will be present and may chime in. As the engineer, you might have your preference and even voice your opinion if asked, but the producer decides who is there during the mixdown. Not your call or your responsibility.

 

Opinions vary. Everyone will have a different take on the mix. Most musicians prefer to hear themselves at least slightly louder in the mix than an objective person would prefer. That's a problem when you have all of them there.

 

Worst possible situation (that I've experienced many times) is to have the whole band in the room talking with each other while I'm trying to hear well enough to mix. I hate that!

 

Terry D.

[DanteRTS]

Good stuff.

 

What we do is Decide on a mix situation. Either Drum dominant or Guitar dominant.

 

Being a guitar player, I shoot for that (i.e. Chevelle). But, we usually opt for drum heavy. Pick an album you want to mirror the mix of, turn it way down. I bet you hear kit and vocals.

 

Anyway, at that point we let the engineer do his job. Our other guitarist has some studio chops, so he'll sit in a night or two. More as an idea man, not to run the board.

 

I also agree with using references. We use that in reference to mastering as well.

 

Basically, I would think about it as individual people. Is you're drummer going to bitch about the kick sound when the engineer is blending the bass DI and mic? That's when he stays home. But if you think someone in the band may have legitimate ears and can help your overall project, I'd encourage it. Bottom line, it's YOUR music and project. But, hopefully you have the trust in your engineer and producer to do their job.

 

They didn't play your parts on the track did they? You do what you do, let them do what they do.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by DanteRTS Being a guitar player, I shoot for that (i.e. Chevelle). But, we usually opt for drum heavy. Pick an album you want to mirror the mix of, turn it way down. I bet you hear kit and vocals.

 

 

+1

 

I can't stress enough how important it is to listen to the mix at different volume levels - especially with setting the vocal levels.

 

Try this experiment at home: crank the mix volume up pretty loud and set the vocals where you think they should be. Now turn the level down very low. The vocals will seem really loud. Turn them down to where they blend with the backing tracks but can clearly be heard.

 

Now turn it up again. The vocals still seem at the right level just like they did before when the mix was really loud.

 

The lesson is, always check the vocal setting at a low volume.

 

Terry D.

[squealie]

We work pretty much the same way as Lee & co.

 

But I think that any 'player' who wants to be present for mixing, should be forced to watch the mixing of 10 other projects first. With both hands tied, and 4 pairs of gym socks stuffed in their mouths.

 

It's very frustrating, to bring up tracks for the first time, and before you even get to the level knob on the second track, the drummer is bitching for more volume/attack/low-end/punch/reverb/death/air/salsa on the kick drum.

[BandProfit]

I personally ban anyone from the room (except maybe a second engineer) when I am mixing. Then when I have my mixes withing what I call "the margin of error":cool: I bring in the decision makers. This would be the producer, band leader or in the case of a band that I have produced, the entire band.

 

Oh and I fully agree with MrKnobs' comments on listening at different volume. I will add, that I listen on the big speakers very little just to check the lowe end. I spend most of my time on the NS-10s and sony computer speakers, and then in my car. On my laptop anywhere I can get a fresh listen.

 

- Sean

[Lee Knight]

The way I do it...

 

Nobody present during a mix. However... prior to the mix I ask for detailed descriptions of how they'd like it to turn out, even providing some CD's of blueprint ideas.

 

Then I mix.

 

Then I present this "1st draft" to the boss/bosses for review with me NOT being there while they listen. Then they either tell me I'm way off or they provide me a detailed list of the changes needed. 9 times out of 10 these ideas they provide me with are great.

 

Rinse, repeat as needed.

[cozmicslop]

I'm with Lee.

 

In both groups I play with, when studio time comes, I end up being assigned as 'producer'. I'm usually the most objective and I have patience with the process that many musicians don't.

 

It's not productive having too many people in there arguing over how loud they want this or that. It's best to let the engineer do their thing. Take the mixes home and listen to them, take notes.

 

It's like having too many people in the kitchen. Too many people just get in the way.

[MrKnobs]

I once was engineering a session for a client who was a singer songwriter. The basic tracks went smooth as a baby's butt, but the song was a rock tune and after several tries the client didn't feel he could do the vocal justice. So he asked me if there was anyone in my Rolodex that could come sing the song.

 

It was short notice, and neither of the two guys I usually use were home. I had recently got a number for a new guy that a drummer I trusted said was "the sh*t" so I crossed my fingers and called that guy. He briefly negotiated price, then came right over.

 

He was cocky as all hell. Everyone in the client's band wanted to check him out. He stood and listened to the track with the client vocal on it, then said, "OK, I see what you're trying to do, no problem. Give me four tracks and get everyone out of the control room. I guess YOU have to stay (indicating me)."

 

I saw the client's face turn red, and he started to say something. I motioned for him to wait because I thought the ass chewing I was gonna give this pompous asshole would be all the better after he disgraced himself on the tracks. The client bit his tongue and went out to the break room to eat pizza with his band.

 

We closed the door to the control room and got to work. I ran tape and the cocky dude told me to mute all the tracks except drums, bass, and rhythm guitar. On the first track I rolled he sang strange little bits and pieces in a lower register. I thought, what the f*ck but he said, "OK, now mute that track and give me another." Same thing, but higher and a little more melodic. Each time he did a track, he had me mute it. Didn't even want to listen to it, didn't want a single punch to fix anything.

 

Finally, after singing three tracks of what must have been his idea of backing vocals, he sang the lead track without listening to any of the previous vocal tracks. It was nothing less than stunning. To show off a little (consider that it was the 80's), he actually screamed right before the solo IN HARMONY.

 

When the final chorus was done, he told me to just put it all up in the mix, it was done. Then he went to eat pizza with the band, leaving me with the comment "Never eat cheese BEFORE you sing."

 

I put all his tracks up and the fit together like a glove, a completely stunning performance. That was the first time I'd ever heard anyone do vocal tracks from the bottom up, especially startling since he had never heard the song before.

 

The client forgave him for his rudeness when he heard the tracks. Shortly they were all drinking beer and eating pizza together while I threw together some scratch mixes.

 

Terry D.

 

P.S. I still have that cut, though I probably shouldn't post it since the song doesn't belong to me. I do have some other cuts of the vocalist singing on my own material, if anyone wants to hear him. To me, he sounds like, or at least is in the style of Ronnie James Dio.

 

P.P.S Which is a somewhat long-winded way of saying, who should be in the control room (whether it's tracking or mixing) depends on the comfort level of the talent, and is ultimately up to the producer.

[lefchr]

 

Originally posted by Marlin in Minn IMHO, none of the band members should be present..

 

 

+1

 

Thats what I was thinking... Just have someone you know and trust do the mixing. The musicians should be present during setting the eq of their instrument, so it sounds the way they like though.