a real topic, musical goals, being honest with self

[cornfordsnob]

a real topic, my apologies for previous jackassery...

 

i have found many times that people will tell you what their musical goals are but everything they do seems to contradict that.

 

examples of personal goals:

 

"i'm happy just playing locally"

"i want to make it big"

"i want to play on the road in a cover band"

"i want to play locally in an all original band"

 

how does a person decide what their REALISTIC musical goals are and remain honest to one's self ??

 

there are so many "local rockstars" with huge ridiculous attitudes who are so bitter and hateful because they are living an illusion and are slowly beginning to realize that they aren't going to "make it big".

 

I also see extremely talented musicians that seem to be deeply satisfied playing at open mic night, with zero ego and attitude !!

 

there are of course some really horrible musicians playing clubs and open mic nights too.

[DanteRTS]

 

Originally posted by cornfordsnob how does a person decide what their REALISTIC musical goals are and remain honest to one's self ??

 

 

A perfect example of what my Band Names means to me!!

 

I agree that there are tons of people without defined goals. Which makes it even more impossible to reach, if you don't know what you're shooting for.

 

Excellent question.

 

I'd say it's as easy as a personal gutcheck. Weighing pros and cons. Figuring out your priorities. What sacrifices are you willing to make. How realistically you're going to be able to tap you energies to be most efficient.

[fastplant]

This thread seems a lot more mature, so I'll respond:

 

I think very few musicians are genuinely happy with where they are in their "career." There are far too many failed musicians that refuse to accept that they are destined to remain local.

 

Sure I'd like to become rich and famous off my music, but I'm actually happy to be doing what I'm doing. I have fun playing covers on the weekends and working a day job during the week. I think until you accept your fate you'll be miserable and that often leads to egos and attitudes.

[cornfordsnob]

 

Originally posted by fastplant This thread seems a lot more mature, so I'll respond: I think very few musicians are genuinely happy with where they are in their "career." There are far too many failed musicians that refuse to accept that they are destined to remain local. Sure I'd like to become rich and famous off my music, but I'm actually happy to be doing what I'm doing. I have fun playing covers on the weekends and working a day job during the week. I think until you accept your fate you'll be miserable and that often leads to egos and attitudes.

 

 

two comments,

 

one, unless i misunderstood, staying local doesn't equate to failure. i think even playing once is a success because it's a life experience that can't be described or read about. you have to do it to understand. the experience does "mutate" over time i imagine in different ways for each person.

 

for example, i bet a gig to Eric Clapton feels a bit different now than it did in 1969.

 

second comment/question, are you a lead singer/guitar player ? just wondering because i thought i might have seen you play live.

[2manband]

I think a lot of people try to make a career in music when they shouldn't. Having a day job allows you to pursue music on your own terms. I was a "career" musician in college - it was my only source of income - but I didn't let it hinder my studies. I stuck it out and graduated - got a good professional type job - now I can afford lots of cool new gear, and play as much or as little as I want. Don't mean to sound cliche, but I have a lot more artistic integrity now than I did when I was stuck playing Sweet Home Alabama and Brown Eyed Girl 3 nights a week. I can pick and choose projects based on how interesting they are, and not worry too much about how they pay. - It's worked out much better for me.

[fastplant]

 

Originally posted by cornfordsnob two comments, one, unless i misunderstood, staying local doesn't equate to failure. i think even playing once is a success because it's a life experience that can't be described or read about. you have to do it to understand. the experience does "mutate" over time i imagine in different ways for each person. for example, i bet a gig to Eric Clapton feels a bit different now than it did in 1969. second comment/question, are you a lead singer/guitar player ? just wondering because i thought i might have seen you play live.

 

 

One, I think you misunderstood me, I meant that to SOME playing locally equates to failure. It's not failure, and people need to realize that. Thinking that it is failure is what leads to the ego and attitude problems.

 

Two, nope, not a lead singer/guitarist.

[mrcpro]

You know, if you've been around for awhile, you try everything to make it big at first, and if it doesn't happen, you give up and try something else or accept the level you're at, and hopefully relax and have fun with it. There's a window of opportunity that closes in middle age. It's the same as any other profession... I don't think being a musician is any different. For some it just takes longer to face the facts, that's all. And there are a few that never get it.

[Roy Brooks]

When I started playing guitar, in 1975, my goal was to simply learn how to play guitar. Now, a little over thirty years later, my biggest goal is to keep finding new and different things to play on my instrument and finding more ways to make what I play more interesting to me. That means listening to alot of different kinds of music, taking lessons and classes, and learning things out of method books.

In the few times that I found myself bored with my own playing I simply found some other stuff to get into. For awhile I did nothing but study surf music and twangy guitar playing. I also did the same with rockabilly. A couple years ago I started teaching myself everything I could that I thought I needed to know in order to play jazz. I even took jazz theory and composition classes in college. About a year ago I bought a couple lap steels, one I keep in C6 tuning and one in E7 tuning. So I got some books and some records and started learning how to play lap steel. That whole world turned me on to Hawaiian music, Blind Willie Johnson, western swing, and old school Hank Williams-era country music. I also started rediscovering my love for the playing of cats like Merle Travis and Chet Atkins. I also got into chord melody playing. And each new thing I learn just gives me more options of what I can play when I pick up my instrument.

I have pretty much always been a working gigging musician who almost always gets paid for it. I have played in cover bands, "original" bands, eclectic bands that don't play popular music, and bands that do their own versions of covers. Some of those bands worked locally in the places I lived and some traveled. I still gig frequently.

Even when I have been busiest playing music in working bands I have always taken the time to work on whatever I felt like working on no matter what it was. I still do.

I am really not concerned with "making it big". My favorite music has rarely been what was most popular with the masses. Nor do I have any real desire to please the masses. I just do what I do and do it well. Though I do dig it when other folks like what I play. I do not ever rule out the possibility of achieving some kind of fame or respect for what I do. But ultimately what is most important to me is that I keep playing music and I find ways to enjoy it.

[cherri]

The motive behind the goal is as important as the goal itself.

[gtrbass]

You make an important point:

 

How does a person decide what their REALISTIC musical goals are and remain honest to one's self ??

 

On one level you have to see through the hype. I think many people are drawn to music early on because of the attention you get. Once they realize that attention comes and goes, the look at the second part of the picture which is "this is work so how do I get paid?" To some the only validation is money.

 

I came to LA 20 years ago this July to "make it". I had some successes and some failures. I had some great experiences and some truly heartbreaking ones too. I've gone through the self assesment you describe. I had to assess the realistic chances of making a sustainable living from this and supporting myself and someday a family. The person who tipped the scales for me is a guy named Andy West. He was the bassist for the Dixie Dregs (and many others). Andy went to work for IBM as a programmer and is in the IT business. He still makes music, but it's on his terms in that he makes music he likes and doesn't worry about whether it sells to feed his family. He is one of the best musicians in the world. Andy is very open about his desire to make a good living and be rather uncompromising about making what he thinks is great music. No record guy is gonna get him to do something (musically) he doesn't believe in to sell more records. That became my goal. I did exactly what he did and I haven't strayed from it.

 

My Goal: Make music you believe in, and don't let some joker in a suit chance how you do it. If he/she knew so much, they'd be a musician, not a suit.

 

Am I going to make it big at 40? Sorry, but the sun has set and the ship has sailed. To date no label I know of has signed an unknown or relatively unknown act or artist who is over the age of 34 and they've gone on to become the next big thing (Beatles, Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc.) The closest to that ever happening was Tina Turner, but that was a comeback not a new arrival.

 

My Goal: Go make records myself and release them. I have the resources and I don't need to wait for some mook to do it for me.

 

I play regionally in one band that releases CD's, plays shows at some great venues. We occasionally open for big acts like Foreigner. Is it ever gonna be a big payday, or go farther than that? I really doubt it. It's an awful lot of fun though. My goal there is to play with some great guys, be the best performers we can be and entertain people. My hope is that we can sustain it. At least one other guy in that same band still has it in his head that we're gonna make it big. Is that realistic? I don't think so.

 

My Goal: Entertain People.

 

I work on another project that is more about making great music. In that I get to play with some really monstrous musicians making what people call "musician's music". Is that gonna sell a boatload of CD's? No it isn't. I've been in that "band" for 10 years. This is our second CD. In 1998 we were signed to a small label that turned into a disaster with lawsuits and all kind of scum and villainery. It was enough to make any sane person realize this business sucks. I still do it for two reasons 1) Friendship 2) It's about the music.

 

My Goal: Make great music with great guys..

 

I'm working on a Prog concept project. It's sort of my personal labor of love. Is that gonna make me famous? Highly doubtful. Is it gonna make me a lot of money? I'll consider it a success if it breaks even. It's about the music. If 100 people get the CD and like it, I'll be happy. If 100,000 people get the CD and like it I'l have made some money, but I won't feel one bit more validated.

 

My Goal: Have an outlet for songs and ideas I have.

 

I have a mastering studio. I do mastering work. That is a business. It's about money. If nobody pays me to do mastering. I don't do it anymore. I love it, but it's a job.

 

If you're making music because you love to and you're good at it

then the goal should just be to keep doing it.

 

Good thread...

[Terry Allan Hall]

 

Originally posted by mrcpro You know, if you've been around for awhile, you try everything to make it big at first, and if it doesn't happen, you give up and try something else or accept the level you're at, and hopefully relax and have fun with it. There's a window of opportunity that closes in middle age. It's the same as any other profession... I don't think being a musician is any different. For some it just takes longer to face the facts, that's all. And there are a few that never get it.

 

 

Well, that's partially true...in some genres (particularily rock, "pop-county", punk and Top-40 pop) there's DEFINITELY a "shelf-life" aspect once you hit 30 or so, but others (folk, jazz, blues, bluegrass, acoustic) the age factor really isn't a problem, and, in fact, can be an asset!

[cornfordsnob]

cool reply, got any links to any of these projects ?

 

i'd love to check them out and i'm sure a lot of others would too !!

 

 

Originally posted by gtrbass You make an important point: How does a person decide what their REALISTIC musical goals are and remain honest to one's self ?? On one level you have to see through the hype. I think many people are drawn to music early on because of the attention you get. Once they realize that attention comes and goes, the look at the second part of the picture which is "this is work so how do I get paid?" To some the only validation is money. I came to LA 20 years ago this July to "make it". I had some successes and some failures. I had some great experiences and some truly heartbreaking ones too. I've gone through the self assesment you describe. I had to assess the realistic chances of making a sustainable living from this and supporting myself and someday a family. The person who tipped the scales for me is a guy named Andy West. He was the bassist for the Dixie Dregs (and many others). Andy went to work for IBM as a programmer and is in the IT business. He still makes music, but it's on his terms in that he makes music he likes and doesn't worry about whether it sells to feed his family. He is one of the best musicians in the world. Andy is very open about his desire to make a good living and be rather uncompromising about making what he thinks is great music. No record guy is gonna get him to do something (musically) he doesn't believe in to sell more records. That became my goal. I did exactly what he did and I haven't strayed from it. My Goal: Make music you believe in, and don't let some joker in a suit chance how you do it. If he/she knew so much, they'd be a musician, not a suit. Am I going to make it big at 40? Sorry, but the sun has set and the ship has sailed. To date no label I know of has signed an unknown or relatively unknown act or artist who is over the age of 34 and they've gone on to become the next big thing (Beatles, Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc.) The closest to that ever happening was Tina Turner, but that was a comeback not a new arrival. My Goal: Go make records myself and release them. I have the resources and I don't need to wait for some mook to do it for me. I play regionally in one band that releases CD's, plays shows at some great venues. We occasionally open for big acts like Foreigner. Is it ever gonna be a big payday, or go farther than that? I really doubt it. It's an awful lot of fun though. My goal there is to play with some great guys, be the best performers we can be and entertain people. My hope is that we can sustain it. At least one other guy in that same band still has it in his head that we're gonna make it big. Is that realistic? I don't think so. My Goal: Entertain People. I work on another project that is more about making great music. In that I get to play with some really monstrous musicians making what people call "musician's music". Is that gonna sell a boatload of CD's? No it isn't. I've been in that "band" for 10 years. This is our second CD. In 1998 we were signed to a small label that turned into a disaster with lawsuits and all kind of scum and villainery. It was enough to make any sane person realize this business sucks. I still do it for two reasons 1) Friendship 2) It's about the music. My Goal: Make great music with great guys.. I'm working on a Prog concept project. It's sort of my personal labor of love. Is that gonna make me famous? Highly doubtful. Is it gonna make me a lot of money? I'll consider it a success if it breaks even. It's about the music. If 100 people get the CD and like it, I'll be happy. If 100,000 people get the CD and like it I'l have made some money, but I won't feel one bit more validated. My Goal: Have an outlet for songs and ideas I have. I have a mastering studio. I do mastering work. That is a business. It's about money. If nobody pays me to do mastering. I don't do it anymore. I love it, but it's a job. If you're making music because you love to and you're good at it then the goal should just be to keep doing it. Good thread...

 

[Guitar Centaur]

My goal is simple: See lots of butts shakin' in front of me, and get paid for the privelege.

 

Since I'm not the most creative guy, I do this playing covers. There are so many great songs out there being made every day, I really see no reason to foist my particular brand of {censored}e on the listening public.

 

[Roy Brooks]

 

Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Well, that's partially true...in some genres (particularily rock, "pop-county", punk and Top-40 pop) there's DEFINITELY a "shelf-life" aspect once you hit 30 or so, but others (folk, jazz, blues, bluegrass, acoustic) the age factor really isn't a problem, and, in fact, can be an asset!

 

 

I concur.

[daveski]

The best post I've read in here. Many of the responses I've read reflect my personal feelings.

I'm 53, started playing at 12 with local kids. We played out alot for little money but it was fun. Continued improving my playing until 1st year of college and at 18, I joined a very successful (locally) country band. Made lots of money for 3 years still playing locally and improved my playing and opened my perspectives on the whole thing (there is something else other than rock and blues).

Graduated and got a real job. Had a serious chance to do music full-time due to contacts made during the country band gig but chose an easier path. I'd seen what the music business could do to people.

Never stopped playing and occasionally played for $$ with local people on short term basis'.

Recently got downsized and started working part time contract jobs, so I have lots of spare time on my hands. I am financially secure from my career so that isn't an issue and I believe significant.

I tried to join a local C & W band with a 'record contract' (yeah, yeah) and got bounced for various reasons, and I think this was the final motivating factor. I sat down, wrote a bunch of songs, recorded them at home with my barebones equipment and downloaded the stuff to the web.

I had recently been going to local open mike sessions, putting out ads looking for musicians, jamming with a couple of different groups, but couldn't find the people who had the same convictions and amount of commitment that I had. So, I just did it myself. I can't drum, so I used a drum machine. I played the guitar and bass, and wrote songs that could be talked rather than sung, because I can't sing well either. Some of the songs I did sing, but I think I scored 50/50 on that. I don't have a wide vocal range and my voice is not a pleasant voice as I have to deal with constantly plugged sinusses. I gave it a good shot though.

Summary..

I knew after my college band gig that I could have done the music thing full time, but financial success was more probable doing the 'normal' job.

I figured I could still do the music thing part time anyways as time allowed.

If you've got it, it ain't going away if you keep at it.

It can improve over time, as long as arthritus doesn't start to set in. If it does, you have to learn to adapt.

Sometimes you just have to do it all yourself. You can't rely on others to get where you want to go.

If you have time, check out my stuff at www.soundclick.com search 'daveski'.

Hard rocking country and blues.

Also at www.podsafeaudio.com artist names 'daveski' and 'hoserski' I've got different songs at each band site.

It ain't perfect, but I gave it a shot, and it's me.

If you lie to yourself, you will be living a very sad unfulfilling life.

[squealie]

 

Originally posted by gtrbass You make an important point: How does a person decide what their REALISTIC musical goals are and remain honest to one's self ??

 

 

You're post was excellent, and you seem very well grounded.

 

I am having a great time keeping at least 1 UNREALISTIC goal though.

[way2fat]

There isn't much that beats playing Bluegrass in the back pasture on a full moon with some friends and a few cold brews. Some times my hound dog sings the high harmony.

[cornfordsnob]

i'm very curious, what is that 1 unrealistic goal ?

 

by the way, i have lots of unrealistic goals, but most of them are SO unrealistic i'd have to call them fantasies !!

 

(not all of them involve music, some are U.G.'s related to Angelina Jolie or Scarlett Johansen... LOL )

 

 

Originally posted by squealie You're post was excellent, and you seem very well grounded. I am having a great time keeping at least 1 UNREALISTIC goal though.

 

[cornfordsnob]

THAT sounds like a blast !! the weather is warming up, it'll be time to break out the singing hound dog again !!

 

if you have a back pasture and cool neighbors you could even set up a full PA (really long extension cords.. OR.. an enclosed gas generator and voltage regulator ??) and jam some Zep or Sabbath or Van Halen or whatever your "flavor" happens to be !!

 

Get the hound dog a wireless headset mic and you're all set !!

 

 

Originally posted by way2fat There isn't much that beats playing Bluegrass in the back pasture on a full moon with some friends and a few cold brews. Some times my hound dog sings the high harmony.

 

[cornfordsnob]

 

It ain't perfect, but I gave it a shot, and it's me. If you lie to yourself, you will be living a very sad unfulfilling life.

 

 

it's interesting to hear about the path other musicians have taken..

 

some similarities, some differences, but the common thing seems to be a love for playing music.

 

some of the things that go with a musician's life are good, some not so good... but playing music and enjoying good music is one of the greatest joys in my life !!

 

your last couple of sentences hit me like a ton of bricks... i've done the "sad unfulfilling life" thing and still do sometimes because of my own choices/attitudes, but i feel like i'm making some breakthoughs in putting my music in perspective with my entire life. i think some of the best music in my life is still ahead of me and i think i'll be able to realize some of the potential i've never been able to in the past because i wasn't at peace with where music belongs in my life.

 

at times it's been a struggle and i've even tried to walk away from music because i "blamed" it for the turmoil in my life. pretty dumb, that's the "lying to yourself" part !!

 

but my "breakthrough" is, STARTING to feel comfortable with making music just big enough in my life without being too small. being realistic. I've still got a lot of work to do, the reward will be to enjoy playing music without all the struggling !!

 

thanks for your post !!