Equal Pay Equal Say but not Equal help and not Equal investment.

[rickkreuzer]

Hey guys. Been doing alot of thinking here lately about how we, as a band, do things.

 

We all split the money equally. We all have the ability to have input. BUT....

 

Only 2 of us have any money into the PA, Light show, trailer, etc, and only 2 of us (same 2) do 100% of the marketing/booking/sales.

 

We've been blessed to have been quite busy for the last 5 years playing between 100-130 shows/year while making damn decent money.

 

Here's my irk. Lately, we've had a couple of band members miss setups and/or teardowns, yet get the same pay. Next, somehow, our drummer seems to think that his sole responsiblity is to set up and tear down his kit and that's all. He minimally helps with the PA, lights, etc except when asked. Occasionally, he'll set up, then go sit at the bar til we're ready for soundcheck. Literally have to approach him and ask for help.

 

Perhaps I'm being a bit over-whatever here, but it's wearing on the 2 of us who have a significant amount of $$ invested in this deal.

 

Would it be appropriate to change the way we do business? Meaning-- taking more pay because of our investment as well as for the work we do? Shall we give those other members a "no setup/teardown option" with reduced pay? Why shall only 2 of us take the depreciation hit from having our own equipment used repeatedly and for wear and tear?

 

What do you guys think?

[rickkreuzer]

BTW, the 2 of us are meeting at the club in an hour to set up. One guy just bailed on setup, the other two will be 1 to 1.5 hours late. So, here we go again...

 

They all have decent excuses for being late and not showing. But not having the help is a serious inconvenience.

[THX1138]

I think if you stand to take the biggest hit, you also should be entitled to larger rewards.

 

And if I caught my drummer sittin at the bar while all his mic lines were sittin there waiting to be run...

 

I'd bitchslap the hair off him.

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm... seems we've already been down that road.

[squealie]

Yep, create options for all contingancies, and let them choose.

 

Load-In/Out pay bump = $

 

Then, to settle the PA investment, you'll have to announce that you're tired of 'loaning' the PA to the band, and begin negotiations on how to rent an outside system, and that the money will come off the top.

 

They will rethink paying you for your PA.

 

Or not.

[DanteRTS]

I assume you're in a cover band??

 

I ask, because in an original band, I think you'll find you take the good with the bad. It's more a marriage then a hired gun deal would be.

 

With that assumption, I believe you have every right to ask for those things. It's more of a business day-to-day then say an original band.

 

Spell out the repsonsibilites. PA and trailer? That ones a bit touchy, because I assume everyone understands you "own" them. If the band breaks up today, you walk away with the gear, right? Taking a cut of the pay for use of your PA could suddenly become the argument of "renting the guitarist's rig" or "the drummer's kit". Just be prepared for musicians who do not grasp business at all!

 

I totally feel you on the promotinal effort. Same thing in our band. 2 guys do ALL of the business, and our drummer misses all load in's and is late to EVERYTHING! (refer back to marriage concept..haha). I think you should bring that to light. Lay it out on paper. Show your list of 32 duties to the list of 5 the others do. Give them the option of picking up some of them to equal duties out to mirror the equal pay. If they don't want to, you have a Black and White explaination of why the pay structure needs to be revisited.

 

Bottom line, I'd suggest spend a whole night laying it out with everyone, and deciding up on it. Then be totally done with it. Don't leave little details and things to come up again on a day-to-day basis. Get the business over with, and go back to being musicians with each other. If they want to have a serious disussion about it again, schedule a separate time to do that. It's easier to change hats that way.

 

Our band has a detailed business meeting once a month, and send out "biz updates" once a week. It works for us anyway. . .

[gtrbass]

I think you are wholely justified in saying "either you participate in the costs of doing business or you need to accept a reduction in your profit share." There are operational costs for the acquisition, and maintenance of the production (PA, lighting, etc.). There are handling costs to store, transport, and set up/tear down the production. There are administrative costs for booking and marketing the act.

 

Figure out what it would cost you to lease the equipment, pay a crew to hump the gear, gas for the van, rental on the van/trailer, and what percentage would go to a booking agent (usually 10-15%). Take that total, divide it by the number of guys and deduct that amount from each member who isn't helping with things.

 

Whoever shoulders the responsibilities is a full partner, and the others are either limited partners or contractors.

[maxnew40]

I think at that point you guys charge a P.A. rental and setup fee for each show that comes off of the top of the pay.

 

Max

[vanlatte]

 

Originally posted by DanteRTS I assume you're in a cover band?? I ask, because in an original band, I think you'll find you take the good with the bad. It's more a marriage then a hired gun deal would be.

 

 

I don't think original vs. cover has much to do with this topic, I have seen this behaviour in plenty of each. Bands are made up of musicians, which happen to be some of the most eccentric people on the planet. My experience with original bands had plenty of "last minute show ups" (can't make it until 9, can you guys set up my stuff?).

 

I have arguably the least amount of gear; bass, amp and a bag of tricks. But I couldnt imagine watching everyone else haul stuff around and set up while I just sit at the bar...sheesh.

[DanteRTS]

 

Originally posted by vanlatte I don't think original vs. cover has much to do with this topic, I have seen this behaviour in plenty of each. Bands are made up of musicians, which happen to be some of the most eccentric people on the planet. My experience with original bands had plenty of "last minute show ups" (can't make it until 9, can you guys set up my stuff?).

 

 

Well, maybe you're right. But I have the perception that the 4 or 5 guys trying to make it as an original band are more about the music, the drive, and the "making it" goal than the are about business details. It's more of a brotherhood. You'd kill for the guy next to you. You sweat together, grow together, and have a bond.

 

In a cover band, it's more about making money or having fun. Therefore, I believe business is more aplicable in the day-to-day workings. You show up to the practices and gigs, work up the covers, jam them at rehearsal, get paid, and go home.

 

But, I agree with the fact that you're going to have slackers and those that pick up that slack in both situations. But I was trying to point out the their perceptions on business etiquite might be different.

 

Maybe look at it this way. In an original band, the "band" gets paid. In a cover band, each individual gets paid. That's a huge difference to me.

[Janx]

you may find that itemizing and listing what it cost to outsource various tasks and services may not equal what you guys actually make on a gig.

 

Basically, listing dollar values may be interesting to show what your extra efforts are worth, but your band may/may not be able to actually afford the real price. So asking for that amount may not be cool.

 

You might be able to allocate a percentage value of the take towards various tasks. Those who participate in particular tasks get a share of that bucket. Doing the math is harder, but it would always work out.

 

certainly making a list of all the tasks you do, and pointing out which ones other folks are shared and which aren't being helped with may show how a band's got chores, and everybody's gotta do their chores.

 

I think it's fair to say, that at a gig, everybody better be working, and nobody's done working until everybody's done.

 

as far as gear goes, that's tricky. Without the gear, there's no band. But once you start itemizing, everybody will try to itemize. The drummer will itemize his kit (which has got more bits than the bassist).

 

You probably need to look at setting up partnership business agreements of some sort. Basically, each member contributes differing amounts of labor and capital. As such, they are normally entitled to different returns of investment. Folks who put more in should get more out.

 

Janx

[shredfit]

I totally unterstand your position. A few years ago I was in the same place with the bass player.

 

Here is what happened and how we handled it... (I must confess it was the bass players idea)

 

We were gigging every weekend making pretty good coin ($1000-$1200 for 2 nights at the same club) We would do a little better if we did one nighters...

 

After 2 years of this heavy gigging things started to break down (we lost several channels on the sound board(bass player owned) My van motor went bye bye... lost a power amp(bass player owned) Lights/Dimmers started to show there wear and some needed major work(I owned them) other guitar player/lead singer used bass players guitar(it was getting beat up)... lost a few speakers that needed replacing/recone.... ect ect ect

 

We then, brought all of this up at a band meeting... and the attitude of the other members(drummer and singer/guitarist) was that we needed to get the stuff fixed so we can keep going full swing.... (in other words we owned it so we need to fix it)... I MUST also point out everyone was getting equal pay after expenses(gas, rooms only... but most rooms came with the gig)...

 

So, the bass player calls me up and wants to talk this over with just me present... and here was his idea...

 

Since we own all the stuff and are expected to fix and keep it up... he breaks the band down into a % basis for gig pay...

 

Here is how it went:

 

Bass player(owner) 33% after expenses

Me(owner) 33% after expenses

Singer(non-owner) 17% after expenses

Drummer(non-owner) 17% after expenses

 

a typical gig for $1200 would break down like this:

$1200-200(expenses)

=$1000

$330---Bass player

$330---Me

$167---Singer

$167---Drummer

 

We brought this model up at the next band meeting/practice and as you might expect it didn't go over very well at first... That is, until both the bass player and I told the other members that we would gladly sell them our gear/vans etc etc... and take the 17% because then we would not have to worry about up-keep and replacement etc etc etc... (in fact, the bass player even had drawn up fair prices for the stuff) Interestingly, after this was brought up in a professional business manner(using the % method) the other members could see the, pain in the ass, and extra time we spent on the stuff... they went for the 17%'s and we played for another 3 years using this model... actually the bass play and I would just keep investing in the bands gear(something I doubt the singer and drummer would have EVER done) so we all, in a sense, saw some benefit.

 

Good luck... hope this may be of help

[salislore]

There was a smilar thread to this one a couple of weeks ago. In that one a few people said that members of bands should bring whatever they can to the band and not expect more compensation if for instance they provide the PA.

 

I thought that was ridiculous. Usually the ones who say that are the ones who don't really bring anything extra. It's easy to say everyone should bring what they can when someone else is taking all the financial risks of providing the PA.

 

When I started my cover band two years ago, I had my own PA, but decided that we would buy a new system and split the cost of the PA equally among the 5 members. I certainly wasn't going to provide my PA for everyone else to use free of charge. We subsequently fired our bass player and decided to keep the costs of the PA spread among the remaining 4 original members.

 

We decided to fully depreciate the system over 5 years. Whoever leaves within the 5 years will get a prorated portion of their money back.

 

Our new bass player gets less than everyone else gets for a gig, because he hasn't paid anything into the PA.

 

I do virtually all the bookings for my band along with site visits, song directions, setting up our sponsorship, etc. My phone bill has been very high over the last year and a half making numerous toll calls to set up gigs. I have saved the band thousands of dollars in commission costs that would have been paid to an agent.

 

I finally got fed up and told the guys that they need to start covering my phone bill costs. They agreed with no problem.

 

Like the others have said, you need to put everything down on paper for your guys to see. They cannot honestly question you when it's in black and white.

 

I hate to see people get taken advantage of. They have done it to you for far too long!!!

[rickkreuzer]

 

Originally posted by DanteRTS Well, maybe you're right. But I have the perception that the 4 or 5 guys trying to make it as an original band are more about the music, the drive, and the "making it" goal than the are about business details. It's more of a brotherhood. You'd kill for the guy next to you. You sweat together, grow together, and have a bond. In a cover band, it's more about making money or having fun. Therefore, I believe business is more aplicable in the day-to-day workings. You show up to the practices and gigs, work up the covers, jam them at rehearsal, get paid, and go home. But, I agree with the fact that you're going to have slackers and those that pick up that slack in both situations. But I was trying to point out the their perceptions on business etiquite might be different. Maybe look at it this way. In an original band, the "band" gets paid. In a cover band, each individual gets paid. That's a huge difference to me.

 

 

It isn't about being a 'cover band' or not here. We have a brotherhood, having been together nearly 5 years as a core. The two that typically don't have anything or any time invested are the 2 newer fellas.

 

Honestly, being a cover band around these parts is exactly WHY we're playing as much as we do. Personally, there's a bond that has formed here as well. But, face it. We're a business. Your group is a business! We do this because we a) love it; and b) because we make dang good money doing what we love. We're all old, married, kids, etc and really aren't in this to 'make it'.

 

I guess the point is that I'm feeling a bit taken advantage of by some guys that I'm close to. I will continue to give freely, but don't leave all the work up to me, too!

[Narcosynthesis]

One thing I always wandered, what happenes with band members joining/leaving?

 

The band I had for a while, all the money we earned we put into the band fund, intended if we ever earned enough to go towards any recording or rehersal costs and the like.

When one member left he was given his share of the cash, fair enough.

But when we got a replacement, what happens? How does he fit in with what we have earned before?

 

As to your situation, if you do a significant amount of work over the others and/or own and maintain shared equipment (ie the pa and lightinh over individual instruments) then you definately deserve a bigger share. either something like them paying you a bigger share, or group funds going towards upkeep and your bills (again you basically gettign a bit bigger of a share)

Just sit everyone down and go over it calmly and logically, you feel you do an excessive share of work and would like to see the benefits - either more cash or everyone else helps out

 

David

[DanteRTS]

 

Originally posted by rickkreuzer It isn't about being a 'cover band' or not here. We have a brotherhood, having been together nearly 5 years as a core. The two that typically don't have anything or any time invested are the 2 newer fellas.

 

 

Fair enough. I guess it's just my altered perception, being that I've only been on one side of the fence.

 

Dang good topic though! Brings to light that business sincerely needs to be part of a bands plans/thoughts/energy. There are too many out there that don't want to mess with it.

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by DanteRTS Well, maybe you're right. But I have the perception that the 4 or 5 guys trying to make it as an original band are more about the music, the drive, and the "making it" goal than the are about business details. It's more of a brotherhood. You'd kill for the guy next to you. You sweat together, grow together, and have a bond.

 

Don't mean to keep arguing with you but this point is debatable as well...have you see the

band splits thread ?

 

EDIT: Sorry Dante, didnt see your last post. I am not picking on you, honest!

 

 

[DanteRTS]

Originally posted by vanlatte Don't mean to keep arguing with you but this point is debatable as well...have you see the band splits thread ? EDIT: Sorry Dante, didnt see your last post. I am not picking on you, honest!

 

It's all good. Nothing wrong with differring opinions. Hell, it's only healthy!

 

I'm going to check out that thread as well.

[Roy Brooks]

Sounds like those slacker band members need some motivation from Matt Foley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZBGT1auouE&search=chris%20farley

[wheresgrant3]

Interesting topic.... we were faced with the same issue. Our cover band has been together 4 years now and I'm the newest returning member. We are a five piece but split pay 6 ways to pay our manager/booking agent/soundguy. For the most part we've all gotten along and have been pretty forward thinking when it comes to business and making $$$. Our PA was a mix of everyone equipment: I owned an amp... so did the singer, bass player own the board and the subs... etc. In the past year we raised our pay significantly and decided we needed a dependable, professional sound system to help provide the show we were being paid to deliver. We priced out a new active PA (all Yorkville & A&H) with top of the line cabling etc. Total cost, nearly $6000. We decided as a group that no one person should shoulder the financial $ burden of owning and maintaining the PA (and suffering the depriciation that would follow) ... so we did something wholy unique and gentlemanly. We agreed to buy the PA together.... as a group. One band member had stepped forward and offered to charge the PA on his card (he got some nice airline miles off that one). We agreed to pay the PA out of future bookings... the entire balance, plus interest. That means that we all agreed to play aproximately 6 gigs without pay.... the pay would go directly to the balance of owed. We bought the PA in November and we have just one payment left.

 

So we all own the PA... what happens if one member decides to leave? We created a buyout plan.... After the PA is paid in full if any member decides to leave they will recieve half of their investment. That calculates a 50% depreciation on the equipment. Which is fair. So, the most any band member is out if they decide to leave the group is $500... that is certainly cheaper and more effective than hiring a sound guy for 45 gigs a year ... and our system sounds better than most house systems do.

[Raypd Ayp]

I didn't read every post, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything somebody else said.

 

I was in a band some years ago where we had the same issue, two of us setting everything up and tearing it down, everyone getting the same pay. After a big blowout over it, we came up with this, and it actually worked.

 

The PA became a separate entity from the band, and the band had to pay for the PA as if it were being rented/run by an outside person. It was a flat rate per show. After paying for the PA, each got equal band pay from what was left, those who worked on the PA split the PA money. That way, if someone wanted extra money, they'd have to help with the PA, or else they just got band pay. Usually the idea of having to do extra work was enough for the other 3 guys to forgo the extra money. We never had a problem after that, it relieved a lot of tension within the band.

[DanteRTS]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 Interesting topic.... we were faced with the same issue. Our cover band has been together 4 years now and I'm the newest returning member. We are a five piece but split pay 6 ways to pay our manager/booking agent/soundguy. For the most part we've all gotten along and have been pretty forward thinking when it comes to business and making $$$. Our PA was a mix of everyone equipment: I owned an amp... so did the singer, bass player own the board and the subs... etc. In the past year we raised our pay significantly and decided we needed a dependable, professional sound system to help provide the show we were being paid to deliver. We priced out a new active PA (all Yorkville & A&H) with top of the line cabling etc. Total cost, nearly $6000. We decided as a group that no one person should shoulder the financial $ burden of owning and maintaining the PA (and suffering the depriciation that would follow) ... so we did something wholy unique and gentlemanly. We agreed to buy the PA together.... as a group. One band member had stepped forward and offered to charge the PA on his card (he got some nice airline miles off that one). We agreed to pay the PA out of future bookings... the entire balance, plus interest. That means that we all agreed to play aproximately 6 gigs without pay.... the pay would go directly to the balance of owed. We bought the PA in November and we have just one payment left. So we all own the PA... what happens if one member decides to leave? We created a buyout plan.... After the PA is paid in full if any member decides to leave they will recieve half of their investment. That calculates a 50% depreciation on the equipment. Which is fair. So, the most any band member is out if they decide to leave the group is $500... that is certainly cheaper and more effective than hiring a sound guy for 45 gigs a year ... and our system sounds better than most house systems do.

 

Kudos! Got me thinking about our RV.......

[jumpduck]

Not sayin it would work for everybody, but in a situation where I (guitarist) and the bassplayer owned the PA(some cabs, amps, and effects mine, some cabs, effects and the board his), we cut the money equally, with the PA receiving a full cut. In return, he and I foot the bill for repairs and transportation expenses, ie, gas and oil in the van, etc.

And there's no excuse for anybody sittin on their ass during load in or out.

We all loaded in, then drummer handled drums, keyboard player his gear, I set up my guitar rig and the bass players rig, while the bassplayer handled hook-up and assembly of the PA. Simple lighting set that took only minutes to put together.

There were occasional times that this one or that didn't realyy do his fair share, and legit problems, such as working late at the old day job, were excused, but for the most part, it went pretty smoothly. Main thing is, ya gotta speak up when problems arise, before someone gets such a case of the ass that you end up in a screaming match or simple stuff.

[way2fat]

You giggin' around here soon, jump? Let me know if you are, I'd like to come see.

[flip333]

My bandmembers got bent noses when I suggested my PA was worth a share.

 

The guy who is supposed to book gigs suggested a 20% booking fee. 10% seems more realistic to me.

 

My nice PA will sit unused.

 

I want to be in a band because it is fun, so I have agreed to provide my little {censored} PA for now.

 

If I think too much about this, my blood boils and I completely lose the fun in it. It is more important to me to enjoy this band.

 

Its hard to get a group of musicians together who:

 

1) get along.

2) like the same music.

3) and have compatible talent.

 

I feel alive when I play in a band. Cost: Priceless... kind of....

[Outrider]

Our group hasn't had any problems dividing the labor, but all of the PA is owned by the bassist & myself. Not jointly...we each own different parts, bought separately. That way, if one of us goes away, there will be no argument or complicated issue of ownership/depreciation/etc. Luckily, we are the two driving forces behind the group and seem to be firmly planted.

 

PA repairs are a different story...if we blow a speaker or an amp, the band divides the repair costs evenly out of the take on the next show.

 

If labor ever becomes an issue, I like the previously stated idea of a "setup fee" to be divided among whoever shows up. I think that would work nicely.