Etiquette question

[SteinbergerHack]

 

I've been following this thread without comment and was curious if the monitors were going to end up being the issue. Providing you have a decent amp/monitor setup... Learn to ring out the monitors. Get them sounding hi-fi, loud enough, and without ring. Just Google "how to ring out monitors". It's easy if you take a little time getting good at it and well worth the effort. Floor wedges are notoriously ugly sounding but not to hard too pretty up and rid of ring all at once. Get good at it yourself. Don't trust the sound man unless he's good .

 

 

This was an issue of mix levels (he wanted to hear more of himself and less of everyone else), not sound quality or monitor setup. We didn't have any issues with feedback, squeals, muddy- or tinny-sounding wedges, or any of the other typical club crap.

 

I always EQ the monitors myself, and I've consistently had good results - and happy lead singers (up until this one)! My baseline curves comes from a RTA runs that I do on each cabinet at home, then I tweak as necessary to account for room issues.

 

Frankly, part of the reason that I'm picky about sound guys is exactly this issue. I learned years ago that if I wanted to have properly set up monitors, I would have to do it. I run the EQs for the monitors on stage (not at the board) so that I/we have control. The guy running FOH has no way of knowing what we are hearing, so he simply can't make any sort of adjustments accurately.

 

Now, a lot of techs will take this as a personal affront - they seem to think I'm suggesting that they don't know how to do their job. In truth, though, it's not about their personal ability - it's about the fact that they are physically in the FOH, not on stage. Truth be told, most of the techs who are REALLY good immediately understand what I'm doing and are happy to split the responsibility; they get FOH and I get monitors.

 

[FWIW, we have individual monitor mixes, each running Yamaha club series wedges with dbx 31-band EQs. I'd like to have better cabinets, but the sound quality we get is still way ahead of what most guys in our league are carrying. I have found that even a really cheap rig can produce decent results when it's properly set up - and far better than a $$$ rig with no EQ or bad EQ.]

[rhat]

 

One monitor doesn't cut it if you have multiple vocalists, no matter how good the band is. How do you explain bands having three part harmony that was great running total caveman with just vocals in the mains and no monitors with a bigger backline? Yea it can and was done for years. There's also no way to get a solid dance kick sound from JBLs on a stick - they just won't generate enough low end. That is a matter of opinion. for a small bar you dont need to mic the kick. Its nice but not needed. Hell the average drummer is too damb loud even with out any mic's on the kit in a small bar You might get by with a pair of mid-high cabinets doing bluegrass or acoustic stuff, but nothing with any real bass requirements. Small bars dont need bass re enforcment. Let the bass players amp cover the bass. I agree with your point, though, that the gear doesn't make the band. All the sound gear in the world isn't gonna make a cluster of garage hackers sound like Dream Theater.

Yep and those are the same guys that think they need a huge PA rig to play a corner bar.

 

A good band full of old school guys can make good rock with far less PA equipment than you realize.

 

 

Gigs get played every weekend by good bands with a couple JBLs on a stick. and a monitor. Run the FOH mix through the monitor and just do it.

 

 

In today's world of fancy PA gear ,,,,,what you actually need and what you think you need are two different things.

 

 

I mean its not like the corner bar is a stadium or even a huge room.

 

 

All the trick stuff is nice..... but you dont need it to sound good. Too many bands are way too loud for the room,,, more gear doesent fix that problem.

[Lee Knight]

 

 

 

Then it sounds like you're going to be able to give him what he wants/needs. On the issue of FX per song...

 

I got a call a couple weeks ago to do some consulting work for a very popular corporate 60's revival band. These guys are top notch as are their various sound crews. They use 3 different guys and setups per availability. All good.

 

The gig they offered me was to setup specific FX chains in a setup I spec out. Could be a multi FX or have a few chained and go midi switching... switch chain to match the recording. Piece of cake and something I'm pretty good at in my record production work. "Make the reverb and delay sound like this record...". I can do that.

 

I told him flat out: "You will never hear it out there. It'll always be wrong. The ambiance you want per old recording just won't communicate into the room. Let the sound guy do what they're already doing very well. Making you guys sound natural and very, very good out front.

 

Put some appropriate slap perhaps on the right tune. Maybe a timed delay per cue. Beyond that... it's just pissing in the ocean live.

[SteinbergerHack]

I told him flat out: "You will never hear it out there. It'll always be wrong. The ambiance you want per old recording just won't communicate into the room. Let the sound guy do what they're already doing very well. Making you guys sound natural and very, very good out front. Put some appropriate slap perhaps on the right tune. Maybe a timed delay per cue. Beyond that... it's just pissing in the ocean live.

 

 

I think you're probably right on that. Can I quote you?

[Lee Knight]

I think you're probably right on that. Can I quote you?

 

I'll have to charge you...

[ChordGirl]

 

I think there is a much bigger shortage of talent than there is a shortage of PA gear. Gear doesnt make the band. when you play huge rooms is where the big PA gear earns its keep. For bar gigs, a couple JBLs on a stick and one for a monitor sounds fine with a good band.

 

 

+1

[modulusman]

Rhat, I will agree with you that drummers are often too loud for the room. But I have never heard a kick drum too loud it is always the snare or cymbals. At the guest ranch job I mentioned earlier the only thing in the subs is the bass drum. A good kick sound is very important if you want people to get out of their seats and dance. You need THUMP.

[SteinbergerHack]

A good kick sound is very important if you want people to get out of their seats and dance. You need THUMP.

 

[BATCAT]

 

Rhat, I will agree with you that drummers are often too loud for the room. But I have never heard a kick drum too loud it is always the snare or cymbals. At the guest ranch job I mentioned earlier the only thing in the subs is the bass drum. A good kick sound is very important if you want people to get out of their seats and dance. You need THUMP.

 

 

That's funny, because (it seems better now but maybe 5-7 years ago it seemed worse) one of my common complaints in mid-sized clubs was soundpeople mixing the kick way too high and making the kit sound unbalanced.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

That's funny, because (it seems better now but maybe 5-7 years ago it seemed worse) one of my common complaints in mid-sized clubs was soundpeople mixing the kick way too high and making the kit sound unbalanced.

 

 

Sure, but if you listen to today's recorded mixes, the kick is a lot fuller and thicker - and more prominent - than you can get without a pretty solid sub system.

 

I agree, though, that there are some sound guys who seem to think that the kick should be 10 dB louder than everything else......

[modulusman]

That's funny, because (it seems better now but maybe 5-7 years ago it seemed worse) one of my common complaints in mid-sized clubs was soundpeople mixing the kick way too high and making the kit sound unbalanced.

You can always turn it down but if it is not miced you can't make it any louder. I personally don't like too much kick drum in the PA either.

[badhabit]

We're a 5 piece. The bass and my guitar are not usually miced in clubs. We run the keys through the monitors and FOH because then, the keyboard player doesn't have to bring an amp. I put a mic on the kick and snare. We're playing blues where there's a lot of ghosting on the snare. Plus our new drummer doesn't believe in smashing the drums. We run three vocal mics and run a mic line for the hard amp. We use all the channels on the little Yammie lunch box amp/mixer. It's the stereo power amp model with 500 watts per side. One side for FOH and one side for monitors. We use the Yammie clubs for monitors ( 3 or 4 ) and either Yamaha for FOH or some BagEnds. The BagEnds are more efficient and work good for outside and larger rooms. Then sometimes, we'll bring some JBL subs, Soundcraft mixer, a rack of gear, more amps, etc and mic everything. But those are for higher paying events where it's a large room. Little 100+ seat blues joints don't need it. We'll still mic the kick and with the BagEnds, you can get some serious thump out of them by increasing the bass and dropping out some mids and highs. It's not ideal or as good as the subs, But we try to keep it compact for these one night gigs and smaller rooms. I commend any band willing to haul around a big, heavy and expensive rig. And that's what's needed for SOME venues. But 80% of the places we play, that would be over kill. And 10% already have a good sound system. So only 10% of the time do we need to set up our bigger rig and have a sound man in the audience mixing for us. Effects? We have a little verb on the vocals. If we run the big rig, it's got a multi-effects processor the sound guy can fiddle with and add to the vocals and instruments if he wants. That's they way we run it and it works for us. And BTW, the singer/harp player owns the small rig and gets $25.00 a night for it's use. I own the bigger rig and when we need that, I get $125.00 for it's use and the sound guy we use get's $75.00 to $100.00. It's usually just two sets.

[rhat]

 

Rhat, I will agree with you that drummers are often too loud for the room. But I have never heard a kick drum too loud it is always the snare or cymbals. At the guest ranch job I mentioned earlier the only thing in the subs is the bass drum. A good kick sound is very important if you want people to get out of their seats and dance. You need THUMP.

 

 

 

Its a thump vs hump deal. small club thats main deal is solo,and duo acts.

 

Sunday is jam night with a full band. Its a small bar. stage room is at a premium is an understatement. We throw a little kick in the {censored} sticks to give the drummers foot a little help. The FOH and the monitor mix is the same. The drummer has a couple hot spots. We try to keep the volume down since we have an older crowd. It gets the job done. hell this pa gear is better than most of us used back in the day. Its way good enough for what it is. The peeps drink , eat and dance and the place is full.

[cooterbrown]

Everybody needs a dbx Driverack.

It's like the swiss army knife of PA gear, since it makes setup so much easier.

[modulusman]

 

Its a thump vs hump deal. small club thats main deal is solo,and duo acts. Sunday is jam night with a full band. Its a small bar. stage room is at a premium is an understatement. We throw a little kick in the {censored} sticks to give the drummers foot a little help. The FOH and the monitor mix is the same. The drummer has a couple hot spots. We try to keep the volume down since we have an older crowd. It gets the job done. hell this pa gear is better than most of us used back in the day. Its way good enough for what it is. The peeps drink , eat and dance and the place is full.

 

 

All PAs sucked back then. A band playing for free at jam night isn't in the same boat as a band getting paid money.

[rhat]

 

All PAs sucked back then. A band playing for free at jam night isn't in the same boat as a band getting paid money.

 

 

 

Actually its a better boat in alot of ways. show up and play. As for the musicans. The host has current stuff on the country charts. One was at 19 a couple weeks ago . Its slippin a little now. The lead player toured for 10 years in the 70s, has his mug on 3 LPs. One of our bass players old band may still have the record for daily spins on WLS radio in chicago back when they were the powerhouse am rock station of the midwest. working pros stop in all the time. sometimes it just isnt about the money, especially when you get older. Like I said its a small venue. You would get laughed at if you rolled in and started lookin for a place to set up your subs. Not all jam nights are the same. This is a really good one with some very good musicans with some real notches in their gun belts.

 

 

All PAs were not junk back then, It did take a lot more wt to get a PA that will keep up with a couple top line powered speakers on a stick today. It was not uncommon for a band on the radio to play with a couple dual showman bottoms as the pa with no monitors though. The voice of the theater big black mothers were top line stuff. I took a moving van to trasport those. Kustom has a pretty good system then too. two 15s and a horn a side. They lacked the watts and the crisp sound you get today. but then that prolly when you were in grade school. In ten or twelve years ,, you may see where I am comming from. for now rock on and keep em dancing.

[modulusman]

No Rhat, I am 49 and been playing since I was 17. And compared to now all PAs sucked back then IMO. I recently watched a special on Woodstock and the PA was definately primative. I remember also reading about the PA the Beatles used at the Hollywood bowl and what a POS it was. As you always say it was caveman back in the day.

[BlueStrat]

 

Rhat, I will agree with you that drummers are often too loud for the room. But I have never heard a kick drum too loud it is always the snare or cymbals. At the guest ranch job I mentioned earlier the only thing in the subs is the bass drum. A good kick sound is very important if you want people to get out of their seats and dance. You need THUMP.

 

 

 

Well, I've done some festival gigs where the kick was WAY too loud. Listening to other other bands, even the headliners, was painful. Which really pisses me off, since they're blues festivals, fer gawd's sake. I don't know why so many of these mixing guys feel they have to make every band sound like a frigging metal band, with a kick that sounds like an artillery round, a snare that sounds like a 50 caliber rifle shot, and the bass at such subsonic frequencies it makes you want to crap your pants.

[rhat]

No Rhat, I am 49 and been playing since I was 17. And compared to now all PAs sucked back then IMO. I recently watched a special on Woodstock and the PA was definately primative. I remember also reading about the PA the Beatles used at the Hollywood bowl and what a POS it was. As you always say it was caveman back in the day.

 

 

One of my classmates in college was at woodstock...I got a few years on ya.

 

You no doubt were part of the solid state revolution. That stuff was just comming out when I was winding band stuff down to go to college. we did have two solid state PA's which was a big step up from the music casters and the little tube box and the EV 664s

[rhat]

 

Well, I've done some festival gigs where the kick was WAY too loud. Listening to other other bands, even the headliners, was painful. Which really pisses me off, since they're blues festivals , fer gawd's sake. I don't know why so many of these mixing guys feel they have to make every band sound like a frigging metal band, with a kick that sounds like an artillery round, a snare that sounds like a 50 caliber rifle shot, and the bass at such subsonic frequencies it makes you want to crap your pants.

 

 

 

They do it for the same reason they hang loud pipes on their bikes.... everyone else does it ... herd mentality.

[modulusman]

 

Well, I've done some festival gigs where the kick was WAY too loud. Listening to other other bands, even the headliners, was painful. Which really pisses me off, since they're blues festivals , fer gawd's sake. I don't know why so many of these mixing guys feel they have to make every band sound like a frigging metal band, with a kick that sounds like an artillery round, a snare that sounds like a 50 caliber rifle shot, and the bass at such subsonic frequencies it makes you want to crap your pants.

 

 

I should have went back an edited my post after the gigantic inky moderator commented on it. What I was getting at is an unmiced kit the bass drum is usually drowned out by the snare or cymbals. I too have seen bands where the kick drum is way too loud in the mix and the low end is overpowering.

[New Trail]

I realize I'm late to the party and things have resolved but there are some things I want to say:

 

 

As I've said before, "He who owns the PA has the pull". If the singer wants the pull, he can provide a different PA and sound man. The last thing I would do is chip in on the added cost or put PC panties on and let the band to vote away my property rights. It's business, treat as so.

 

 

This is closer to the right question (at Post #61) which is: Why doesn't the singer own the PA? I'll bet the bass player owns his rig! In fact I'll bet each member of the band owns their own rigs. Why shouldn't a singer contribute equipment? Does the singer even own a mic? And OT: does the singer help set up, tear down and haul the PA, lights, etc?

[SteinbergerHack]

 

IWhy doesn't the singer own the PA? I'll bet the bass player owns his rig! In fact I'll bet each member of the band owns their own rigs. Why shouldn't a singer contribute equipment? Does the singer even own a mic? And OT: does the singer help set up, tear down and haul the PA, lights, etc?

 

 

Well, to be brutally honest:

 

Musical ability and financial wherewithal don't always carry a positive correlation. I own the PA because:

 

1) I care enough about sound to have made the effort.

2) I have other uses for a PA outside of this band.

3) I can afford it.

 

I've been in bands where the most musically talented of the bunch had the smallest disposable income. At some point, you decide that if you want to have this guy in the group, those with the $$$ will have to bear more of the load than "fairness" would dictate. As long as that is understood and respected for what it is, I don't see it as an issue - it's my decision to supply equipment at no charge to help out my band, and nobody is telling me that I have to do it.

 

My view will change radically the day that someone else starts thinking that they have the right to direct my resources, though.

[John Bartus]

Speaking of {censored}ty old PAs...

 

Remember the Shure Vocal (Disaster) Master? The best a club band could get back in the 70s... No drum mics, loud guitar amps, heavy keyboards (B3s, Rhodes, Leslies), and monitors? What monitors? Just angle those hi-fi multi-10" speaker columns a little toward the stage, and see how well the "Anti-Feedback" switches work.

 

Those were the days...

[BATCAT]

 

with an unmiced kit the bass drum is usually drowned out by the snare or cymbals.

 

 

Absolutely cannot argue with that.