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Etiquette question


SteinbergerHack

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Posts #67 & #73. I think any fence sitters that don't want to be involved will come down on your side of the issue if they know it will cost them $$$. And if the guy can't verbalize what the problem is he should STFU.

 

Remember, you did not force this issue, you are not making unreasonable demands. He did. Don't let him turn the issue on it's head.

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As I've said before, "He who owns the PA has the pull".

 

If the singer wants the pull, he can provide a different PA and sound man. The last thing I would do is chip in on the added cost or put PC panties on and let the band to vote away my property rights.

 

It's business, treat as so.

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Politics has nothing to do with this.


It's a question of fiscal responsibility.


They're getting the use of the PA for FREE, they have no room at all to start calling shots in this area.


I'd probably tell the joker to buy his own goddamn PA, let the band use it for FREE, and at that point he can have more say in things.


And oh yeah, "we" the democratic band are depending on this PA, so when something breaks, YOU can get it repaired on your own dime.


Democracy in these situations is a thin cover for those that are getting something for nothing: put up or shut up I say.

 

 

THIS x100! Well said!

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Politics has nothing to do with this.


It's a question of fiscal responsibility.


They're getting the use of the PA for FREE, they have no room at all to start calling shots in this area.


I'd probably tell the joker to buy his own goddamn PA, let the band use it for FREE, and at that point he can have more say in things.


And oh yeah, "we" the democratic band are depending on this PA, so when something breaks, YOU can get it repaired on your own dime.


Democracy in these situations is a thin cover for those that are getting something for nothing: put up or shut up I say.

 

 

I've been in a band where the guy who owned the PA held it over our heads like a bank vault key. He used it as an excuse to not ever practice, show up late, unrehearsed, and to act like a total dick.

 

So, I do have kind of an issue when someone says "we're a democratic band, BUT.. since I own the PA...."

 

It's not democratic. In most cases the PA is

 

I'm not saying this to start {censored}, I'm just pointing out the opposite side of the fence as it appeared to me when I was there.

 

I've also been involved in bands where the PA ownership was NEVER used as a tool for someone to get their way. Like the three bands I'm in right now.

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I've been in a band where the guy who owned the PA held it over our heads like a bank vault key. He used it as an excuse to not ever practice, show up late, unrehearsed, and to act like a total dick.


So, I do have kind of an issue when someone says "we're a democratic band, BUT.. since I own the PA...."


It's not democratic. In most cases the PA is

 

 

Whoa, there:

 

1) I'm not the one who initiated the issue.

 

2) It's the singer who is demanding that I allow his buddy to run the sound system - someone I don't know and have never met, and whom I have no idea of his ability level or sense of responsibility.

 

3) The singer has the least gigging experience of anyone in the band, and has failed to articulate the reasons why he wants to force the use of a certain soundman.

 

4) The sound system we are talking about is a heck of a lot more than a $1000 lunchbox PA head - check post #52. $1000 wouldn't cover much more than the cabling at replacement cost.

 

5) I have committed to providing whatever we need (within reason) and to work with each of the members to get as close as possible to the sound/mix they need/want.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that running sound from stage myself may be the best solution. It's a crappy way to try to get a mix set up (and get good drum sounds), but it might just stop the complaining.

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In my band, the drummer owns the PA, and provided it to us initially at no charge. After a little while, we felt guilty that he was responsible for the PA and we weren't...we were taking advantage of him. He never said anything about it, and never asked for anything...he could afford it, so he did it out of the goodness in his heart.

 

Still, we felt that we needed to make it right. At first we would deduct $50 off the top and give it to him as "PA rental", and even though that figure was laughable, it was an attempt to acknowledge his contribution. That was soon recognized as insufficient as to his investment and we decided to really step up as best we could.

 

He now gets a double cut, one for him, and one for the PA. We also treat our soundman as an equal member of the band, so any take is divided by 6 after expenses.

 

We each get a little bit less money, but at least nobody feels taken advantage of. It's not too long before someone's benevolence becomes his grievance. It's better to tackle these issues before hard feelings begin to set in.

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I've been in a band where the guy who owned the PA held it over our heads like a bank vault key. He used it as an excuse to not ever practice, show up late, unrehearsed, and to act like a total dick.


So, I do have kind of an issue when someone says "we're a democratic band, BUT.. since I own the PA...."


It's not democratic. In most cases the PA is

I'm not saying this to start {censored}, I'm just pointing out the opposite side of the fence as it appeared to me when I was there.


I've also been involved in bands where the PA ownership was NEVER used as a tool for someone to get their way. Like the three bands I'm in right now.

 

 

The difference in that guy and me is that I'm an asshole that makes things happen and he's a jerk.

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Whoa, there:


1) I'm not the one who initiated the issue.


2) It's the singer who is demanding that I allow his buddy to run the sound system - someone I don't know and have never met, and whom I have no idea of his ability level or sense of responsibility.


3) The singer has the least gigging experience of anyone in the band, and has failed to articulate the reasons why he wants to force the use of a certain soundman.


4) The sound system we are talking about is a heck of a lot more than a $1000 lunchbox PA head - check post #52. $1000 wouldn't cover much more than the cabling at replacement cost.


5) I have committed to providing whatever we need (within reason) and to work with each of the members to get as close as possible to the sound/mix they need/want.


The more I think about it, the more I think that running sound from stage myself may be the best solution. It's a crappy way to try to get a mix set up (and get good drum sounds), but it might just stop the complaining.

 

 

I wasn't reacting to you so much as wades' general attitude that PA ownership > all else.

 

One thing I do fail to understand, is how you would have a singer making demands without being able to articulate why.. I think I would have insisted on a line of reasoning before ending the initial conversation.

 

Outside of that, yeah, all you need in my area is a small pea-shooter PA, as almost all mid-high capacity clubs have their own PA, and most have their own sound guy (for better and worse).. so I fail to see why you need a huge PA for anything these days.

 

I've heard that some areas don't have PA's in any clubs, that's just odd to me, as it is with charging back the club for providing your own.. weird.

 

Here, you wanna play in bars, you must have your own pa. You want to play in clubs, you must pay their sound guy. hmm

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Lead singer has his bud come out and hear his new band.

 

"Dude, your soundman sucks. You should have me run sound."

 

"Guys, my friend is a really good soundman and we should use him."

 

"Why? what's wrong with the current arrangement?"

 

"Ummm. Errrrr. Uuuhhhh."

 

I have worked with many singers, a few of which were musicians. the rest were characters and entertainers. Not saying that they sucked. They were good at what they did. They just weren't true musicians.

 

You should tell him that your sister is a beautician and you insist that she does his hair from now on. Hit him where he lives. :thu:

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Lead singer has his bud come out and hear his new band.


"Dude, your soundman sucks. You should have me run sound."


"Guys, my friend is a really good soundman and we should use him."


"Why? what's wrong with the current arrangement?"


"Ummm. Errrrr. Uuuhhhh."


I have worked with many singers, a few of which were musicians. the rest were characters and entertainers. Not saying that they sucked. They were good at what they did. They just weren't true musicians.


You should tell him that your sister is a beautician and you insist that she does his hair from now on. Hit him where he lives.
:thu:

 

:evil::lol::thu:

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I wasn't reacting to you so much as wades' general attitude that PA ownership > all else.


One thing I do fail to understand, is how you would have a singer making demands without being able to articulate why.. I think I would have insisted on a line of reasoning before ending the initial conversation.


Outside of that, yeah, all you need in my area is a small pea-shooter PA, as almost all mid-high capacity clubs have their own PA, and most have their own sound guy (for better and worse).. so I fail to see why you need a huge PA for anything these days.


I've heard that some areas don't have PA's in any clubs, that's just odd to me, as it is with charging back the club for providing your own.. weird.


Here, you wanna play in bars, you must have your own pa. You want to play in clubs, you must pay their sound guy. hmm

$1000.00 will buy a decent mixer and that is about it.

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I wasn't reacting to you so much as wades' general attitude that PA ownership > all else.

I understand what I type here can come off abrasive: I'm not into writing novellas online or even really trying to be in someone else's shoes in terms of what I would say or how.

 

I'm just saying what should be obvious: If I own something, neither you nor anyone has any right to demand that I do anything with my property that I feel is putting it at risk.

 

You dismiss the "1000" dollar PA, claiming that "the band" could have paid it off it in several gigs.

 

But they didn't, nor did you.

 

At the end of the day, it's not your money on the line, and if you're not willing to step up to the plate and put your money on the line, then you have no right whatsoever to dictate to me or any property owner that they should place their investment at risk. :idea:

 

Don't like the "{censored}ty" PA - step up to the plate and do better or STFU, right? It's only fair.

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$1000.00 will buy a decent mixer and that is about it.

 

He should step up and provide better equipment or shutup.

 

You're right though: 1 grand won't get anything worthwhile, takes considerably more than that even for a good PA on a stick.

 

Anything else is just stupid dick waving; to me, 1000 bucks is a lot of hard earned money and while it won't get a PA started, don't you EVER dis-respect anything I spent 1 grand on - that's a lot of money to me.

 

And you know what, if a grand is something that you can do without: then go ahead and let me trash 1 grand worth of your freaking gear without repercussions.

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Update:

 

As I was walking in the door to rehearsal last night, the singer came over to apologize. I think he had given it some thought and realized that he was a bit over the line. That said, he did have some issues that he hadn't brought to my attention that I need to work to improve. We ended up in a detailed discussion about our goals with the system, and I think the issue has been resolved - at least for now.

 

Thanks for all the input!

 

:thu:

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I understand what I type here can come off abrasive: I'm not into writing novellas online or even really trying to be in someone else's shoes in terms of what I would say or how.


I'm just saying what should be obvious: If I own something, neither you nor anyone has any right to demand that I do anything with my property that I feel is putting it at risk.


You dismiss the "1000" dollar PA, claiming that "the band" could have paid it off it in several gigs.


But they didn't, nor did you.


At the end of the day, it's not your money on the line, and if you're not willing to step up to the plate and put your money on the line, then you have no right whatsoever to dictate to me or any property owner that they should place their investment at risk.
:idea:

Don't like the "{censored}ty" PA - step up to the plate and do better or STFU, right? It's only fair.

 

I get it wades. I was just pointing out the other side of the fence:

 

Sometimes, people use their PA to bully the band.

 

There's two sides to every story.

 

As far as the $1000 PA (Modu)... I'm sorry but yes you can put together a workable PA for under $1000 to play in bars that average 50-70 ppl capacity. I never said it would be the shiznit of PA's, nor did I say it would have a 40+-channel mixer with all the trimmings.

 

But when playing to

 

So why does it always have to go to extremes in this forum anymore?

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...and what were those issues?

 

He wasn't 100% happy with the monitor mix at the last gig (but never talked with me about it during soundcheck or the show, so....:confused:), and he wants a bit more effort put into FX selection song-by-song. Relatively minor issues, and nothing that can't be worked out.

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As far as the $1000 PA (Modu)... I'm sorry but yes you can put together a workable PA for under $1000 to play in bars that average 50-70 ppl capacity.

 

 

I would disagree. If you're playing anything that needs a solid kick drum, you won't get adequate low frequencies for $1K. You also won't get multiple monitor mixes and the EQs to set them up properly for that much.

 

 

But when playing to

 

 

No, but I think you DO need good monitors, and you need enough sub capacity to generate "thump" if you expect people to dance to your show.

 

Look at it this way: We're a 4-piece, and have three vocalists. Thus, a minimum system would be:

 

(3) Wedge monitors. Yamaha Club series @$350/each. $1050.

(2) Mid-high mains - Club series - $350/each $700

(2) Sub cabinets - $400/each $800

(3) Power amps - $450/each $1350

(3) Stereo 31-band EQs - $150/each $300

(1) Crossover - $200

(1) Console - $500-1000, depending on channel count

(7) speaker cables - $50/each $350

(1) Snake - $350

(1) Multi-FX unit - $300

 

We're at $5,900-$6,400 before we've even talked about line-level cables, mics, stands, mic cables, racks/cases, etc. This is not a "Cadillac" system by any estimation, either - just a very basic PA for small-to-medium clubs. It would also be VERY easy to double this amount by simply buying better cabinets (JBL MRX or equiv).

 

So, what are you thinking you can get for $1,000?

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I would disagree. If you're playing anything that needs a solid kick drum, you won't get adequate low frequencies for $1K. You also won't get multiple monitor mixes and the EQs to set them up properly for that much.

 

 

 

No, but I think you DO need good monitors, and you need enough sub capacity to generate "thump" if you expect people to dance to your show.

 

Look at it this way: We're a 4-piece, and have three vocalists. Thus, a minimum system would be:

 

(3) Wedge monitors. Yamaha Club series @$350/each. $1050.

(2) Mid-high mains - Club series - $350/each $700

(2) Sub cabinets - $400/each $800

(3) Power amps - $450/each $1350

(3) Stereo 31-band EQs - $150/each $300

(1) Crossover - $200

(1) Console - $500-1000, depending on channel count

(7) speaker cables - $50/each $350

(1) Snake - $350

(1) Multi-FX unit - $300

 

We're at $5,900-$6,400 before we've even talked about line-level cables, mics, stands, mic cables, racks/cases, etc. This is not a "Cadillac" system by any estimation, either - just a very basic PA for small-to-medium clubs. It would also be VERY easy to double this amount by simply buying better cabinets (JBL MRX or equiv).

 

So, what are you thinking you can get for $1,000?[/QUOTE]

 

Bottom of the barrel {censored} on a stick.:lol: The PA we use to play a guest ranch gig for audiences that average 50 people costs about $12000.00. I could knock about 4 k off that price if I use some cheaper subs. Our IEM rig for 4 members costs about $2500.00.

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I think there is a much bigger shortage of talent than there is a shortage of PA gear. Gear doesnt make the band. when you play huge rooms is where the big PA gear earns its keep. For bar gigs, a couple JBLs on a stick and one for a monitor sounds fine with a good band.

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I think there is a much bigger shortage of talent than there is a shortage of PA gear. Gear doesnt make the band. when you play huge rooms is where the big PA gear earns its keep. For bar gigs, a couple JBLs on a stick and one for a monitor sounds fine with a good band.

 

 

The PA I mentioned for the guest ranch gig can be set-up in 20-30 minutes. This includes drums and guitar amps. It is not a huge PA, 2 JBL prx512s over 2 EAW subs, Mackie Onyx mixer and small rack with an EQ, compressor and an FX unit. This all stays at the venue in a closet. Guitars,cymbals and our IEM rack go home with us.

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For bar gigs, a couple JBLs on a stick and one for a monitor sounds fine with a good band.

 

 

One monitor doesn't cut it if you have multiple vocalists, no matter how good the band is.

 

There's also no way to get a solid dance kick sound from JBLs on a stick - they just won't generate enough low end. You might get by with a pair of mid-high cabinets doing bluegrass or acoustic stuff, but nothing with any real bass requirements.

 

 

I agree with your point, though, that the gear doesn't make the band. All the sound gear in the world isn't gonna make a cluster of garage hackers sound like Dream Theater.

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He wasn't 100% happy with the monitor mix at the last gig (but never talked with me about it during soundcheck or the show, so....
:confused:
), and he wants a bit more effort put into FX selection song-by-song. Relatively minor issues, and nothing that can't be worked out.

 

 

I've been following this thread without comment and was curious if the monitors were going to end up being the issue. Providing you have a decent amp/monitor setup...

 

Learn to ring out the monitors. Get them sounding hi-fi, loud enough, and without ring. Just Google "how to ring out monitors".

 

It's easy if you take a little time getting good at it and well worth the effort. Floor wedges are notoriously ugly sounding but not to hard too pretty up and rid of ring all at once. Get good at it yourself. Don't trust the sound man unless he's good.

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