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= Marketing Your Unsigned Band Megathread =


leftajarandy

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I did try the search box and didn't find anything like this around so I am going to try and start it! :wave:

 

Let's try and make this the one stop thread for creative ideas and tips for marketing your unsigned band!

 

I will post my own findings as I come across them.

I will get the ball rolling:

 

1 - Encourage your friends to "suggest to friends" on your Facebook profile.

We have started some competitions with prizes at http://www.facebook.com/leftajar for who ever suggests the most people to like us. We have only just started pushing to increase our Facebook fans and we are seeing a great response already.

 

2 - Mailing list!

We use this after gigs to get fans email addresses attempt to keep them up to date. It also gives us the chance to get up close to potential fans after a show and try and convert them into an actual fan.

 

3 - Try to integrate your fan base.

This is a complex thing to explain but this has really helped us maintain strong gig attendence (90-100+) for shows. Try to introduce your fans to each other, instead of having "the drummers friends and family" and the "singers friends and family" and "new fans" (etc etc) as seperate "sections" of your own crowd try to introduce them to each other, that way if some of their own friends can't attend the show, they may still be inclinded to attend your gig to see their "new" friends. This will also create a better atmosphere as you will have a "solid" audiance as opposed to lots of little audiences :poke: (I hope this makes sense :))

An example would be the last show we played some of the usual "ring leaders" couldn't attend (which usually means there friends don't attend without them) however I had introduced them to some of the other audience members the previous show, I told them that they would be there and this motivated them to come down (as instead of it just being those 2 or 3 on their own they knew that there would be a good group for them to hang out with!)

 

4 - Introduce yourself to all the other bands on the bill.

We have managed to get countless gigs through recommendations and referrals. When a promoter asks other bands if they have anyone in mind for a support slot, or as part of a bill, they will hopefully give you a shout if you have made a good impression! We break the ice by giving them a copy of our cd or asking them about their music etc (or commenting on their gear if we know about it, positive stuff, not "is that an Epiphone" - "have you seen my Gibson?" lol).

 

5 - Poster the venue!

We had some posters made up, simple but effective poster example, we used the top left example

We stick these up as soon as we know we are playing a show and write the information about the show in the middle. It may not guarantee attendence to the show but it does build "band/brand awareness". The more posters we get up in venues, the more people see the band name the more they become familiar with it and hopefully think to themselves "I will check these guys out"

 

These are the first 5 I thought of, I will post some more up as I remember them and PLEASE POST ANY ideas you find work or think are interesting!

 

Please keep criticism to yourself unless it is constructive (example, don't just post "that doesn't work", provide a way to improve it or why you think it doesn't work).

 

:wave:

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Let's try and make this the one stop thread for creative ideas and tips for marketing your unsigned band!


 

The only thing that could make this post worse would be if you had said "tips and tricks" for marketing your unsigned band.

 

Seriously dude, explain to me how this thread is not merely a spam thread for Leftajar. :blah:

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My objective in this thread is to try and bring together different people's ideas and opinions. Ideas which people may have tried and ones they have heard about but yet to put into practice (so other people may suggest weather it is worth pursuing). I have spent ages looking over the internet and forums and I'm yet to see somewhere that this has been done on a large scale (however I would assume you are probably not the best person to ask, based on the fact you don't even have any links to your music for either preview or purchase in your signature).

 

My current main goal is to direct traffic to leftajar.com (note, not a link.) However for the exact reason you implied I didn't include any links there at all. Therefore your assumption this is a spam thread could not be further from the truth. Surely if this was spam I would have posted it in a variety of locations etc. I spent a long time constructing that first post and didn't post it elsewhere again for the reason of avoiding spam, I assumed if people found the same post elsewhere it would look suspicious.

 

Had you accused me of trying to get people to share "secrets" or creative ideas which have worked then I am as guilty as sin.

 

I hope you see that I am genuine, it is not like I have only made 4 posts and then this. I assume you may have something of value to contribute other than your false accusations so I will look forward to some contributions from yourself.

 

Cheers

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I did try the search box and didn't find anything like this around so I am going to try and start it!
:wave:

Let's try and make this the one stop thread for creative ideas and tips for marketing your unsigned band!


I will post my own findings as I come across them.

I will get the ball rolling:


1 - Encourage your friends to "suggest to friends" on your Facebook profile.

We have started some competitions with prizes at
http://www.facebook.com/leftajar
for who ever suggests the most people to like us. We have only just started pushing to increase our Facebook fans and we are seeing a great response already.


2 - Mailing list!

We use this after gigs to get fans email addresses attempt to keep them up to date. It also gives us the chance to get up close to potential fans after a show and try and convert them into an actual fan.


3 - Try to integrate your fan base.

This is a complex thing to explain but this has really helped us maintain strong gig attendence (90-100+) for shows. Try to introduce your fans to each other, instead of having "the drummers friends and family" and the "singers friends and family" and "new fans" (etc etc) as seperate "sections" of your own crowd try to introduce them to each other, that way if some of their own friends can't attend the show, they may still be inclinded to attend your gig to see their "new" friends. This will also create a better atmosphere as you will have a "solid" audiance as opposed to lots of little audiences :poke: (I hope this makes sense
:)
)

An example would be the last show we played some of the usual "ring leaders" couldn't attend (which usually means there friends don't attend without them) however I had introduced them to some of the other audience members the previous show, I told them that they would be there and this motivated them to come down (as instead of it just being those 2 or 3 on their own they knew that there would be a good group for them to hang out with!)


4 - Introduce yourself to all the other bands on the bill.

We have managed to get countless gigs through recommendations and referrals. When a promoter asks other bands if they have anyone in mind for a support slot, or as part of a bill, they will hopefully give you a shout if you have made a good impression! We break the ice by giving them a copy of our cd or asking them about their music etc (or commenting on their gear if we know about it, positive stuff, not "is that an Epiphone" - "have you seen my Gibson?" lol).


5 - Poster the venue!

We had some posters made up, simple but effective
poster example, we used the top left example

We stick these up as soon as we know we are playing a show and write the information about the show in the middle. It may not guarantee attendence to the show but it does build "band/brand awareness". The more posters we get up in venues, the more people see the band name the more they become familiar with it and hopefully think to themselves "I will check these guys out"


These are the first 5 I thought of, I will post some more up as I remember them and PLEASE POST ANY ideas you find work or think are interesting!


Please keep criticism to yourself unless it is constructive (example, don't just post "that doesn't work", provide a way to improve it or why you think it doesn't work).


:wave:

 

You're talking about a one in a million chance. Work on developing a non musical career...

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You're talking about a one in a million chance. Work on developing a non musical career...

 

I guess the glass is always half empty?

 

I do have a non musical career as well as a a 1st class degree.

Thank you for the "advice" though.

 

It seems this thread seems to be attracting the wrong crowd of people, I would delete it if I could as it seems to be offending people...

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1. DON'T SUCK.

2. WRITE SONGS THAT DON'T SUCK.

3. DON'T BE A DOUCHEBAG.



(Marketing is easier if your product is desirable and people like you.)
:idea:

 

Some good advice here, I would deffo agree with "3" but parts one and two are both down to preference and really hard to gauge. For example I may think Fall Out Boy suck but thousands would disagree, however if i then suggested to those Fall Out Boy fans to check out Slipknot or Lamb of God i'm sure a large percentage would suggest that those "suck", who is right and who is wrong? it is down to personal preference.

 

I deffo agree with part 3 though, as I suggested in my original post, making friends and contacts is very important!

 

Thanks for posting :)

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Chordgirl is right. I get twittered, facebooked and emailed all the time to come see some bands I would't go across the street to see. It5's annoying, because I know that no amount of promo is going to make these guys any good.

 

The cold sad fact is, if you have to work really hard to promote, maybe your product isn't that great. Great bands sell themselves. I'm not saying you need not ever promote at all, because you do. But spamming 1000 people on Facebook, getting people to 'like' you, etc etc is irritating as hell to a lot of folks and smacks of desperation.

 

You want to get a good following and decent turnout, have a show people want to come and see. If you don't, you're wasting your time and being a pain in the ass promoting nothing different than 1000 other bands are doing.

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The cold sad fact is, if you have to work really hard to promote, maybe your product isn't that great. Great bands sell themselves. I'm not saying you need not ever promote at all, because you do. But spamming 1000 people on Facebook, getting people to 'like' you, etc etc is irritating as hell to a lot of folks and smacks of desperation.


 

 

A lot of that is probably generational. I find Facebook to be a colossal waste of time and supremely annoying in the first place. Millions of others? Mostly under the age of 35? Not so much, obviously. I have a feeling they don't find all that spamming and getting people to "like" you to be all that irritating or desperate. It's just how it "is" for them.

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A lot of that is probably generational. I find Facebook to be a colossal waste of time and supremely annoying in the first place. Millions of others? Mostly under the age of 35? Not so much, obviously. I have a feeling they don't find all that spamming and getting people to "like" you to be all that irritating or desperate. It's just how it "is" for them.

I don't know, my kids are 25, 23 and 21, and they say they HATE being spammed by every band in the world. (I asked because I wanted to know if it's an effective marketing strategy) They get lots of them every week, starting on Wednesday...::eek:

 

My age group, it doesn't work so much because half of them don't check their facebook page more than twice a month!:facepalm:

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My age group, it doesn't work so much because half of them don't check their facebook page more than twice a month!
:facepalm:

 

Well, your kids probably know much better about it than I do, so I'll defer to them on this one!

 

But yeah, if the only way I'm going to find out about somebody playing is Facebook, I'll probably miss it! :wave:

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I'll post two of the most horrible mistakes a bandmate did:

 

He started a Myspace for the band and made it look awesome but with no tracks of the actual band playing, when he started getting interest from people he took it upon himself, with no one elses consent, to take a very poor recording of a rehearsal and posted it on the site, it did more damage than any other single action, even intentional sabotage could achieve! My point, don't publicize or work under your bands name untill you are gig ready so you don't give the wrong impression.

 

Second mistake was an acoustic gig that me, as the singe of the duo, asked him not to book since I had a prior engagement. The douche took it upon himself to find a sub for me! He then played under our band name and sucked, I mean sucked, as in lost the weekly bar gig we had at that venue! I left the band.

 

Rod

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BlueStrat your opinion is one I respect very much, i've been visiting this forum a few years now and have always agreed with the majority of things you have to say.

 

I would deffo agree that the product should sell itself and for us it does. We are one of the biggest acts in our town (in terms of ticket sales at the major venues) but we've just spent several weeks unable to gig (due to our drummer breakings his collar bone) so we've been trying to generate interest without our main asset (our live show). We find that after shows we receive a lot of attention to our website and fbook so it does show we are leaving a good impression but there must be other ways to generate interest and new fans.

 

What I was also trying to achieve was a wider appeal geographically, we are looking to gig outside of our local area however many venues expect you to bring a crowd (which is catch 22, without a gig we can't generate the new fans base).

One of the things we are trying towards out of town gigging is a cover band, we found that getting an gig as cover band is much easier than an unsigned act and we are hoping that the contacts we make as a cover band (as well as potential fans) may lead to shows out of town.

 

I deffo agree with guido61, Facebook really does help generate fans for us (we are aged 20-24 and the majority of our fan base is in this age band as well). As well as generating new fans it also helps us retain current fans and encourage them to come to our next shows etc (similar to a mailing list).

 

I also see the point that "pushing yourself" on people is not always the best method, it is catch 22 again, do we just sit here and try to appease the people who don't like being "force fed" or do we try and push forward and appeal to the people who are looking for a night out or a band to check out. Me personally, I don't receive an over abundance of acts to check out and I will always give it a listen, i'm not offended by it and I can block/ignore messages if they persist.

 

I do agree that good music will sell itself but it can't be too much of a problem giving it a helping hand towards generating new fans and "putting bums on seats" at our shows.

 

Thank you for the additional postings and a special thank you for a good insight into another point of view (as opposed to accusing me of spamming, I genuinly did not start this thread for that reason and apologise if that is how it sounded).

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He started a Myspace for the band and made it look awesome but with no tracks of the actual band playing, when he started getting interest from people he took it upon himself, with no one elses consent, to take a very poor recording of a rehearsal and posted it on the site, it did more damage than any other single action, even intentional sabotage could achieve! My point, don't publicize or work under your bands name untill you are gig ready so you don't give the wrong impression.



Rod

 

 

This I agree with monumentally! One of my friends bands are a real good act but have an appauling recording on their MySpace, it is surely doing more harm than good and isn't representative of their quality.

 

The recordings of my band are decent (to say I did them myself) but even then are not even close to our live show. I would much rather someone attend our show than listen to us on cd.

 

I suppose you have to start somewhere or with something but you have to try and be objective, even with your own material, ask yourself "would this encourage me to go see this act live".

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One thing I did to get out of town bookings is get a decent agent. There is something about having representation with a legit booking agency that lends you 'gravitas' for lack of a better word, that you don't have when representing yourself. The clients pay more, invest more in their own success by assuming more of the burden of promoting the show, treat the bands more professionally and are willing to sign contracts with higher guarantees if the deal is guarantee vs the door. My agent is worth every penny I pay him.

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@bluestrat thank you again for your insight, I really appreciate you taking the time!

 

We did consider an agent but have no idea what to expect from them. Is it a case of, they listen to your music, decide if they want to represent you, if they do then they book your gigs for you etc? can you decline gigs? our worry would be that they book us shows on nights we are unavailable. We obviously never turn a show down but some nights we are unavailable, will he work with us to meet our needs or just find the slots and try and put us on them?

 

We aren't in it for the cash at this level, just the exposure so it sounds like it could really be the route for us to look at?

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@bluestrat thank you again for your insight, I really appreciate you taking the time!


We did consider an agent but have no idea what to expect from them. Is it a case of, they listen to your music, decide if they want to represent you, if they do then they book your gigs for you etc? can you decline gigs? our worry would be that they book us shows on nights we are unavailable. We obviously never turn a show down but some nights we are unavailable, will he work with us to meet our needs or just find the slots and try and put us on them?


We aren't in it for the cash at this level, just the exposure so it sounds like it could really be the route for us to look at?

 

 

 

Definitely at some point, representation will be key for your success, unless you or one of your band mates is a marketing genius and has a lot of time to devote to it. The further you go, the more time it consumes, while at the same time the less time you'll have to devote to it, because you'll be busy traveling, performing, writing, recording, and so on.

 

My agent works fr me, I don't work for him. I turn down gigs all the time, but I've been with him long enough to where he rarely presents me with a booking unless he knows it's something good. I'm no longer trying to be anything regionally/nationally, but when I was trying, he got me into a lot of high profile festival and concert shows I could not have gotten on my own.

 

Assuming you have all the ingredients to go the distance, the hardest time for any band, the 'make or break' period, is when you're just beginning to take off. Way too many bands at this stage get caught up in the joy of seeing a return on their efforts, and mistakenly think that since what they've been doing have gotten them there, then they just need to keep doing that. But then, often very quickly, opportunities start presenting themselves that require business decisions and negotiating kills that most of us have never had to have. You discover that to keep the ball rolling, you have to start planning 6 months to a year out, and making bigger contacts, and you can't do that when you're taking care of current business, and most of the guys you need to contact won't even take your phone call without representation anyway.

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I'm going to follow this thread,, I am a complete neophyte at all this but I've decided to see what I can do in the area of originals. I write a lot of songs and people seem to like them well enoough and dance etc.. My problem is one of networking.. I have no friends really ,, well maybe 8-10 I would consider good friends so i dont have a built in draw.

 

My first goal is to try and put together a half decent quality cd and uhhhh put my band back together lol.. Its a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll..

 

No matter,, carry on.. But what then,, How is the best way to try and expose people to my stuff myabe entice them to actually come out to a show.. maybe i need to get more social.. Get out to see other original band s and introduce myself.. First I have to crack the local level..

 

But i think some social networking may be beneficial.. There are some musician and live music websites around that i am going to take advantage of more.

 

I am starting out on the soft white underbelly of the music scene. So how do i get to the sun?. I have a feeling it will involve lots of schlepping and little money..

 

www.myspace.com/thescarletpimpernels

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I am starting out on the soft white underbelly of the music scene. So how do i get to the sun?. I have a feeling it will involve lots of schlepping and little money..


www.myspace.com/thescarletpimpernels

 

How is your backstroke? :lol:

 

The Problem With Music

by Steve Albini

 

Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying {censored}. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the {censored} stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the {censored}. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim again, please. Backstroke". And he does of course.

 

 

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

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You have some good ideas, and are being proactive. I like the idea of introducing your fans to each other and making sure you meet all the bands you play with. As far as an agent, you might not be in it for the cash, but that's all they are interested in. They want to book the highest paying gigs, which might not be the one's you really want.

One idea I can offer is to get a gig in a tourist type of bar/club/town, and play there a few times a week. That way you are meeting a lot of new people all the time, and those contacts will eventually lead to opportunities to play outside your current area. You also don't have to bring a crowd to those areas, as the venues already have one. The trick is finding one that your music fits in, or altering your presentation to fit into one that's available.

 

 

 

 

@bluestrat thank you again for your insight, I really appreciate you taking the time!


We did consider an agent but have no idea what to expect from them. Is it a case of, they listen to your music, decide if they want to represent you, if they do then they book your gigs for you etc? can you decline gigs? our worry would be that they book us shows on nights we are unavailable. We obviously never turn a show down but some nights we are unavailable, will he work with us to meet our needs or just find the slots and try and put us on them?


We aren't in it for the cash at this level, just the exposure so it sounds like it could really be the route for us to look at?

 

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See my post above-get your self a gig at the Wharf, or near the theatre district. My group's first gig was at a bar across the street from a good hotel a block from Powell st. Whenever the hotel was full(which was a lot) the bar had traffic. We built a following and reputation by gigging, not by facebooking/myspacing, etc. We played there a year and a half, two nights a week. That bar, BTW, had never had live music before. After that gig ended, it was easy to get another, and another. We had a guest book, and even though it was before widespread use of e-mail, we got addresses, and mailed people about new gigs.

 

 

I'm going to follow this thread,, I am a complete neophyte at all this but I've decided to see what I can do in the area of originals. I write a lot of songs and people seem to like them well enoough and dance etc.. My problem is one of networking.. I have no friends really ,, well maybe 8-10 I would consider good friends so i dont have a built in draw.


My first goal is to try and put together a half decent quality cd and uhhhh put my band back together lol.. Its a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll..


No matter,, carry on.. But what then,, How is the best way to try and expose people to my stuff myabe entice them to actually come out to a show.. maybe i need to get more social.. Get out to see other original band s and introduce myself.. First I have to crack the local level..


But i think some social networking may be beneficial.. There are some musician and live music websites around that i am going to take advantage of more.


I am starting out on the soft white underbelly of the music scene. So how do i get to the sun?. I have a feeling it will involve lots of schlepping and little money..


www.myspace.com/thescarletpimpernels

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Was that doing originals or Covers? a mix? Do you think those opportunities still exist today?? I dont know.. What genre?/ jass seems to be the go to low volume genre these days but unfortunately its not the one i want to pursue.

 

Still if if were possible i'd take a look at it.. Maybe one of the bars in north beach.. I know some guys that had a gig like that.. sunday afternoons but they were way to lacksadaisical and made it more of a jam session and way to low key.. They did have one of the Counting crows sit in fairly often which made it mroe enteretaining and i think thats how they were able to get the gig.

 

Still they didnt do much with it.. Thanks fo rthe idea though.. Maybe I will tak e a walk and see whats shaking down there.

 

See my post above-get your self a gig at the Wharf, or near the theatre district. My group's first gig was at a bar across the street from a good hotel a block from Powell st. Whenever the hotel was full(which was a lot) the bar had traffic. We built a following and reputation by gigging, not by facebooking/myspacing, etc. We played there a year and a half, two nights a week. That bar, BTW, had never had live music before. After that gig ended, it was easy to get another, and another. We had a guest book, and even though it was before widespread use of e-mail, we got addresses, and mailed people about new gigs.

 

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Get out to see other original band s and introduce myself.. First I have to crack the local level..


www.myspace.com/thescarletpimpernels

 

This is something I have considered but haven't tried! I can't see why it wouldn't work.

 

We are really tight with some venues we play at (because they know we bring a crowd and are nice guys etc) and for gigs we have played with other acts on the bill (whose music we liked) we have offered them gigs based on the fact we know we can get a slot at the venue no problems.

 

On several occasions it has been a case of:

"have you guys played at x venue yet?

"no"

"we can get you on there no problems"

 

this is another great ice breaker and also a great asset to have if they have a decent fan base. It means you can put on a show at a venue and know there is going to be a good turn out and also they are likely to encourage their friends to stick around for your show on that current night! (as opposed to leaving after their set - the most cardinal of sins in my opinion, if we have lent you the drum kit, bass amp and guitar cab etc and you don't have the decency to stick around and watch us perform!!?)

 

If you know you can put a gig on at a certain venue then turning up to unsigned nights, picking out acts you think are cool and swapping details shouldn't be a problem? I know if someone approached me at a gig and either:

a) said did we want a support band (or mind if we supported them) I would welcome that (this would work if you didn't have a venue to call on, promoters always ask us "are there any other bands you suggest to put on a bill - with either us or other nights)

or b) did we want to play a gig at "x" venue - that would be awesome as well! (this is what we have done several times and in return they have helped us get some good slots).

 

@blue strat, we do have someone that is close to a marketing genius (my 1st class degree is in marketing) however I see your point entirely, it isn't "my" job to be doing that as the musician.

 

I started this thread to try and get some perspective into the area, I have a good understanding of marketing in general but an unsigned band in my opinion is a tough product to "sell"! I was hoping this thread might generate some good ideas people could try and use and it looks like it is getting there now :)

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We did originals from the start, but also threw in some covers that nobody else was doing at that time. We were doing rumba, so we could do it with a trio. The low volume option was probably huge in creating a gig where one didn't exist before, but in short order we had people dancing and played a New's Year's gig there. When we moved on we added a piece, becoming four people. That sort of opportunity surely still exists-there are always venues that want to try something new.

 

I think for what you do, north Beach could be excellent. There are still some clubs on upper Grant that might work for you. But I'd also check out south of market, and the Wharf. It only takes one place to get started. Instead of looking at the places that already book, look for a room, one that fits your needs. If I'm you, I'd work on how to make my thing scalable. Be able to gig solo, duo, trio, etc. That worked for me, and it was a solo gig that turned into me being able to put together a good band. I had tried to do it for a few years, but the players I had were just ok. Once I had a regular paying gig, I got full time pros. I had gigs happening mostly on weeknights, so it didn't interfere with their touring on the weekends much. I had a few subs, or played without them when it did.

 

If I could get a gig in an outdoor cafe on Pier 39, I'd play it for practically nothing. I'd sell so many CD's and create so many opportunities, it'd be worth it. But I'd never play at the entrance of the pier, where bands play for free all the time. That screams "We are playing for free"

 

 

Was that doing originals or Covers? a mix? Do you think those opportunities still exist today?? I dont know.. What genre?/ jass seems to be the go to low volume genre these days but unfortunately its not the one i want to pursue.


Still if if were possible i'd take a look at it.. Maybe one of the bars in north beach.. I know some guys that had a gig like that.. sunday afternoons but they were way to lacksadaisical and made it more of a jam session and way to low key.. They did have one of the Counting crows sit in fairly often which made it mroe enteretaining and i think thats how they were able to get the gig.


Still they didnt do much with it.. Thanks fo rthe idea though.. Maybe I will tak e a walk and see whats shaking down there.

 

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As far as an agent, you might not be in it for the cash, but that's all they are interested in.

 

Not necessarily so. My agent took some time with me to develop my region, and booked some lower paying thigs to start with just to get out there. Of course, lower paying to him is what I could have gotten for myself, had I been able to get the bookers to talk to me. The point is, he had me from 750/gig at smaller festivals to upwards of 1500+ in just a few months. Might not be huge coin in the Bay Area, but up here in the Northwest it's in the upper echelon of unsigned bands.

 

Ultimately, yes, an agent is in it for the money, but some of them are willing to look long term and work with the artist to develop them if they see potential. My agent only works with a few acts, and dedicates a lot of energy toward them. They're out there if you look for them.

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