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In Ears for entire band pricing/logistics


bnelly428

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Ok hey all,

 

Abzurd is probably the only person I know of that would use a similar setup (SL 16.4.2)

 

Anywho, I am looking into pricing and logistics regarding 5 sets of IEM for my entire band. I would need 4 separate mixes, although we could probably get by with 3, (one for me, one for other guitar, then one that bass drums and lead vox could share I would suspect.)

 

I have 6 auxes on the SL. What brands models would I need to be able to achieve the above? or is it possible?

 

Thanks, all!

 

PS I am aware that we will probably need custom molds, unless there are some IEMs that have pretty good seal on the ear. I know the debate of having a lav mic to create space and all that, but maybe some buds that have pretty good seal (not complete) could avoid that. Not sure :shrug:

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Bear with me, as I am mixer/SR-handicapped:

If I understand what you're saying, your current board will ALLOW you to send 6 aux mixes, but you only need 4 for monitor mixes?

I believe you'll want to confirm you're able to use 4 pre-fader auxes (and I wouldn't assume the drummer and singer will want anything resembling the same mix. In cases where shared IEM mixes happen, it's most common to see bass/drums share, IME. Also, if you have enough aux mixes to give everyone their own mix, why not do so?).

 

Anyway, if it's the case that you have 4 pre-fader auxes available, what you need is 'simply' the in-ear systems: assuming everyone goes wireless, transmitter & receiver + earbuds for each player (although it is possible to share transmitters via a splitter).

 

There are a number of options available, and you & bandmates will need to decide which works best for each/all of you.

There are a TON of threads in Live Sound & Production on this topic: pros & cons of various makes/models of IEM systems, etc. Using Google to search, that's where I first 'found' HC, when I was about to take the plunge into IEMs myself 1 1/2 years ago. I learned a fair amount very quickly and made what I still feel are smart decisions about the gear I chose (Still works great for me today).

Search through old threads there for in-ears or IEM and you should be able to answer many questions you may have.

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We just switched to IEMs. It was pretty pricey overall.

 

First of all, I don't know if sharing mixes is going to work. Everyone wants "more me". There ARE some receivers that have a separate "more me" input I believe, so perhaps you could look into those and a couple of members could share a mix that way.

 

I don't know how much I can get into what would be best for you without knowing more about your setup, but I can tell you what we did and why:

 

A&H WZ3 12M monitor mixer. 16 inputs and 12 outputs (12 mono or 6 stereo). At $2K it's the cheapest monitor mixer on the market. I found one used on Ebay for $800 which was what spurred me deciding "now is the time". We needed at least 5 mixes and we needed to be able to mix them from on stage. I really don't see how it would be possible to use IEMs if the monitor mixes are coming from an FOH position. We put the mixer onstage with us next to the drum riser so everyone can get to it a deal with their own mix as they need to.

 

If you mix the band from onstage, then you could get by with your present mixer IF you have enough monitor sends. I suppose sharing a send would be something to try at first so you don't have to jump into an expensive monitor-board. And it might work for you guys. But another problem is---if you're mixing yourselves from onstage: this would become impossible with everyone using custom molds I would think. Because you no longer hear the band as it is outfront.

 

Audio Technica M2 Transmitter/Recievers We went with three of these wireless systems. They can be had for about $350 brand new all day long on Ebay. They work fine.

 

Shure P2R bodypacks We went with two of these for the guys who are "hardwired". They are a "hybrid" model, which means that if the guys want to switch to wireless later on, they can buy the transmitter that goes along with it. It is the only "hybrid" model I know of. They can be found for about $150 used.

 

Molded Earbuds Most of us went with these and we went with the ones from Ultimate Ears. Good stuff, but they start at about $400 for their cheapest pair plus another $25 for the appointment with the audiologist to get the molds. They now offer an option where they will drill a small hole through the bud to allow some ambient sound in. We went back and forth for a long time (and kind of still are) on what to do about ambient sound. I've found that the more I get used to the IEMs, the less I find a need for hearing ambient sound. We talked about setting up ambient mics in the room and using lav mics. Truth is, I haven't done any of that. I've found when I want to hear a bit of room sound (which is usually just for a few seconds so I can get a "feel" for the room or if someone is trying to talk to me) I can simply dislodge the molded bud just a bit in my ear and it lets in just-enough sound. But everyone's mileage is going to vary with this stuff.

 

Our singer never went to molded buds and is happy with the stock buds from the M2. That doesn't really surprise me since, as a non-instrument playin singer, she simply needs to hear a decent mix of the band and hear her voice above it. Hearing the bass guitar with the best-possible-fidelity probably isn't a neccesity for her.

 

Our guitarist went back to using a wedge after a couple of gigs. So we just set him up with a small wedge and fold back some vocals and keys for him. Not really a problem since the stage volume is so low now. He says he intends on getting used to the IEMs at some point, but I'm pretty sure he never will.

 

We also needed to purchase a jumper-snake (around $150) to go between the monitor mixer and our main snake.

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We use the same SL 16:4:2 mixer and 5 In Ear moniter systems. Totally agreed that shared mixes are NOT a very good way to go. Before we bought the Presonus we had a MixWiz that had 4 pre and 2 post Auxes. The 2 Post were used for effects so we ran 5 In ear systems off 4 mixes and using some creative 'more me' cabling and routing. Got is into IEM but we weren't completely happy until we got 5 dedicated mixes. WE have a full time soundguy that runs the monitor mixes from FOH for us. Once we got them dialed in they are pretty constant but he checks with each member 2-3 songs in to make sure everything is good or if something needs to be adjusted. We have a mix of wireless units. a Shure PSM600, 3 PSM200, and a AT M2. I use the AT and it is a goo system though the buds are crap. For universal fit, the M-Audio IE10's are much better but customs are the way to go. I have the UE 4 Pro customs and are worth every penny. going IWM has made such a huge difference in our overall sound and our ability to do more gigs without having strained voices.

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Bear with me, as I am mixer/SR-handicapped:

If I understand what you're saying, your current board will ALLOW you to send 6 aux mixes, but you only need 4 for monitor mixes?

I believe you'll want to confirm you're able to use 4
pre-fader
auxes (and I wouldn't assume the drummer and singer will want anything resembling the same mix. In cases where shared IEM mixes happen, it's most common to see bass/drums share, IME. Also, if you have enough aux mixes to give everyone their own mix, why not do so?).


Anyway, if it's the case that you have 4 pre-fader auxes available, what you need is 'simply' the in-ear systems: assuming everyone goes wireless, transmitter & receiver + earbuds for each player (although it is possible to share transmitters via a splitter).


There are a number of options available, and you & bandmates will need to decide which works best for each/all of you.

There are a TON of threads in Live Sound & Production on this topic: pros & cons of various makes/models of IEM systems, etc. Using Google to search, that's where I first 'found' HC, when I was about to take the plunge into IEMs myself 1 1/2 years ago. I learned a fair amount very quickly and made what I still feel are smart decisions about the gear I chose (Still works great for me today).

Search through old threads there for in-ears or IEM and you should be able to answer many questions you may have.

 

 

The 6 auxes on the studiolive are pre or post. I also have 4 sub groups that I think could be used.

 

Re: sharing mixes, I think we will have some redundancy of mixes, ie the drummer and bass player could care less about the harmonies that myself and the keyboard player do. Would we need 3 or 4, probably 4, but in a "more me" situation it seems you will need 2 auxes per mix, so 1 mono mix for bass and drums = 1 aux, and then 6 auxes needed for 3 "more me" mixes. I am not familiar with all of the IEM systems that you would need to use 2 mixes for more me, or just use mono and turn up the channel sends for the individual channels you want more of your channels.

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oh FYI, I run sound from stage.

 

 

Hmmmm.....

 

...I think SpaceNorman runs sound from onstage while using IEMs but I also think he's the only one in the band using IEMs. One of the problems becomes that since one of the main benefits of IEMs is lower stage volume (I don't even have any amp onstage for my keys any longer and, other than the guitarists wedge, there's no vocals to be heard on stage), you're now going to have the issue of not only A) the onstage mix being DRASTICALLY different from what is going on out front and B) you won't even hear THAT very well because you'll have your ears plugged up with a molded earbud.

 

I'm sure there must be someone who mixes a full IEM band from onstage, but I know I wouldn't be able to do it. (which isn't saying much. I'm a lousy soundman.)

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I'm sure there must be someone who mixes a full IEM band from onstage, but I know
I
wouldn't be able to do it.

 

 

Go instrument wireles and IEM wireless; during soundcheck, step out into house, unplug ears, check mix, return to stage to adjust as needed

Set and forget.

 

Not ideal, nor foolproof, but neither is mixing from stage.

 

 

Also, FWIW, our monitor 'mixer' is in Studio/MainStage, which also plays our sequences, all running from a MacBook that sits next to me (drummer) on stage.

I don't touch the mixer portion during gigs, pretty much ever; on a rare occasion, one of us may comment that our mix is off at a gig, and we'll tweak it during a break. Otherwise, it's also set and forget.

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Go instrument wireles and IEM wireless; during soundcheck, step out into house, unplug ears, check mix, return to stage to adjust as needed

Set and forget.


Not ideal, nor foolproof, but neither is mixing from stage.



Also, FWIW, our monitor 'mixer' is in Studio/MainStage, which also plays our sequences, all running from a MacBook that sits next to me (drummer) on stage.

I don't touch the mixer portion during gigs, pretty much ever; on a rare occasion, one of us may comment that our mix is off at a gig, and we'll tweak it during a break. Otherwise, it's also set and forget.

 

 

Yes both guitarists in the band are wireless and pop out when needed.

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Hmmmm.....


...I think SpaceNorman runs sound from onstage while using IEMs but I also think he's the only one in the band using IEMs. One of the problems becomes that since one of the main benefits of IEMs is lower stage volume (I don't even have any amp onstage for my keys any longer and, other than the guitarists wedge, there's no vocals to be heard on stage), you're now going to have the issue of not only A) the onstage mix being DRASTICALLY different from what is going on out front and B) you won't even hear THAT very well because you'll have your ears plugged up with a molded earbud.


I'm sure there must be someone who mixes a full IEM band from onstage, but I know
I
wouldn't be able to do it. (which isn't saying much. I'm a lousy soundman.)

 

 

I run sound from stage and also use IEMs- but as Guido pointed out, I'm the only band member using them. My approach is pretty simple - I start of the night with my IEMs dangling around my neck so that I can hear the "open air" mix.

 

The recent addition of a Keytar to my rig means that I grab it as early as I can in the night and wander out into the "house" so that I can hear for myself how things sound out front. It usually takes 2-3 tunes to get to the point that I feel good about the mix and the overall volume.

 

At that point it's time to "submerge" - at which point I pop in my IEMs and enjoy the rest of the night at a fraction of the volume the rest of the band is being subjected too. My bandmates all know to let me know if we need to bring the overall volume up / down - or if something sounds screwy. When that happens - I simply pop out my IEMs ... go "open air" for long enough to address the issue - then "submerge" again. This is a "rinse and repeat" as required sort of process that can go on all night long. I'm usually good for one repeat cycle once we're in the heart of the evening and our energy (and volume) are near peak for the night.

 

Needless to say - our sound is never as polished as it would be if we had a component soundman working our sound all night long. It is however, a very functional mix that is comparable in terms of quality with the other "mix from stage" bands we compete with. That's the approach we use.

 

I believe Jwusslow's band are ALL IEMs and mix from stage. He no doubt can add something to this one given his band's experience with IEMs.

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The 'More Me' gets mixed in at the IEM transmitter so it does not take up an Aux to do it. All the units we have (see above post) have this capability. Basically they all have 2 inputs. You run an Aux mix into one side and then their mic (in the case of a singer) into the other. Then that person can adjust the mix between the 2. Because you have plenty of available aux sends there is no need for this setup, just give each their own aux and show each person how to adjust it on the SL, since it will be onstage they can walk over and make their own adjustments. This is simpler from cabling the 'more me' at the transmitter unit.

 

Are you using the IPAD application for the SL yet? That will also help you mix yourself from the stage. One of the wireless guitarists can walk out with it, make adjustments and actually hear the change without walking back and forth several times dialing it in. It will also make the initial sound check much faster. If you're looking at the investment for the IEM I think this should be part of that investment as well.

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The 'More Me' gets mixed in at the IEM transmitter so it does not take up an Aux to do it. All the units we have (see above post) have this capability. Basically they all have 2 inputs. You run an Aux mix into one side and then their mic (in the case of a singer) into the other. Then that person can adjust the mix between the 2. Because you have plenty of available aux sends there is no need for this setup, just give each their own aux and show each person how to adjust it on the SL, since it will be onstage they can walk over and make their own adjustments. This is simpler from cabling the 'more me' at the transmitter unit.


Are you using the IPAD application for the SL yet? That will also help you mix yourself from the stage. One of the wireless guitarists can walk out with it, make adjustments and actually hear the change without walking back and forth several times dialing it in. It will also make the initial sound check much faster. If you're looking at the investment for the IEM I think this should be part of that investment as well.

 

 

Unforunately the "more me" would include the guitars and keys as well. Meaning I'll want the keys lower in my mix but my guitar and vocals higher, the other guitarist will want his guitar (rhthym) and keys louder as well as our vocals respectively. So I think that the mic directly into the unit would not work well.

 

Actually now I am confused, the mic goes into the transmitter, but how does the mic get to FOH?

 

 

 

As far as an iPad, simply put, no. We already sound check in about 5 minutes as it is. We have our sound pretty well dialed in for the most part. Would it make changing things easier? probably, but you'd need two hands to operate it so while i'm using that out front, the mix will only have 1 guitar etc. I don't think it would be value added with our particular application (at least for now) plus it's one more thing for me to spill beer on!!

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They now offer an option where they will drill a small hole through the bud to allow some ambient sound in. We went back and forth for a long time (and kind of still are) on what to do about ambient sound. I've found that the more I get used to the IEMs, the less I find a need for hearing ambient sound. We talked about setting up ambient mics in the room and using lav mics. Truth is, I haven't done any of that. I've found when I want to hear a bit of room sound (which is usually just for a few seconds so I can get a "feel" for the room or if someone is trying to talk to me) I can simply dislodge the molded bud just a bit in my ear and it lets in just-enough sound. But everyone's mileage is going to vary with this stuff.

 

Interesting bit regarding a workaround for IEMs starts at about :30

[video=youtube;0AQVDxrPpEM]

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Actually now I am confused, the mic goes into the transmitter, but how does the mic get to FOH?

 

 

There is a through output on the transmitter that would then patch into the respective channel. Again this is not a great solution because of the complexity of the cable routing and the additional point of failure. The best case scenario is Aux out to the mono input of the transmitter for each member. Then each member can have total control over everything in their personal mix. The 'more me' in this scenario is just turn up what you want to hear more of on your personal aux mix. Each member does that and everyone is happy.

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Actually now I am confused, the mic goes into the transmitter, but how does the mic get to FOH?



There is a through output on the transmitter that would then patch into the respective channel. Again this is not a great solution because of the complexity of the cable routing and the additional point of failure. The best case scenario is Aux out to the mono input of the transmitter for each member. Then each member can have total control over everything in their personal mix. The 'more me' in this scenario is just turn up what you want to hear more of on your personal aux mix. Each member does that and everyone is happy.

 

 

Ok that makes sense then. Thanks for clarifying. So then we would be looking at 4 transmitters and 5 receivers total, assuming bass/drums can share a mix.

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Shure P2R bodypacks We went with two of these for the guys who are "hardwired". They are a "hybrid" model, which means that if the guys want to switch to wireless later on, they can buy the transmitter that goes along with it. It is the only "hybrid" model I know of. They can be found for about $150 used.

 

 

David, when using this body pack hardwired, do you just send the aux feed from the board right to the body pack?

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Excellent
:thu:
I am looking to get one of these hybrid packs for myself and was wondering how it works. Thanks!

 

Yeah, the principle with the wireless is the same as it is for a guitar/mic wireless, just in reverse. Whether you're plugging the signal out of the mixer into the transmitter or direct into the bodypak, it's the same signal.

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