Members wheresgrant3 Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 I've seen many threads that have gone on to discuss the scourge of the bottom of the food chain. Average bands losing competitive gigs to cheaper 'dad' bands. Weekend warriors who play uninspired setlists, gig with unprofessional equipment, that don't bring anyone to the bar but don't turn anyone away. They are willing to gig for free in some cases. And they hurt other bands in the food chain, I'd like to pierce the skin a little and discuss the growing trend near the top of the food chain. LapPOP bands (yes I am coining that phrase).... younger, 3-4 piece bands that all have a female frontperson (who no doubt stood on line for Am Idol once in their life) are playing current top 40 songs to downloaded Karaokee backing tracks and offer little really in terms of presentation, style and performance beyond a virtual jukebox/game show experience. Many of these bands are complete startups... while others are older bands who may have retooled. My area is becoming full of them. All with one syllable, action oriented names like Plunge, Purge, Pop... etc flashy marketing and like the dad bands a willingness to accept $600-800 for a A-list gig putting pressure on the bands making $1600. There is a fact... we all age. Veteran bands in my market (including ourselves) are aging out and one sign of a vet band it seems is if they still have a keyboard player. LOL We have two. (we must be really old). I am going to say something contraversial here and I hope I don't offend anyone: but the plethora of laptop bands aren't helping anyone... including themselves. Flat, predictable presentation that usually puts even more pressure on the front people to perform and rarely engages an audience beyond 'look at us' 'sing a long'. . Many have become more DJ than band in the fact that the band is contributing less to the music than than the track is. My area is full of them... they all have a pretty singer (most are pretty but incapable of fronting a band), slick marketing, and very uneven musicianship and presentation when it comes to the marriage of tracks versus live instruments. The best bands nail it... look professional and give an MTV VMA's type experience. But there are way more bad bands than good. Dozens of imititators. Now many of the these bands hurt the band scene b/c while they may develop followings and entertain crowds they are in effect destroying the value of musicianship for all of the bands on the scene. This is not a 'hey, you are cheating arguement'... it a statement I'm making after studing many of these bands intently and looking at the audience follow. And in also trying to navigate a way to market around them. It's easy right. You're a 4 piece rock band and now you want to cover Katy Perry. No keyboard player... no problem. We'll just download tracks from iTunes, play along and everyone will have the Katy Perry world tour experience. But as we know that's not what the audience gets at all. There are some significant challenges to using backing tracks that only the best bands on the scene have mastered. For one: Compression: There is a audible level of compression from the music coming from an mp3 versus a guitar amp. Bands who mix themselves and don't balance the track in the master thru the FOH... well that difference is jarring. As jarring as watching a 3 D movie without glasses. I'm frequently flummixed, amused when I think about how using the tracks came to be. Someone wanting to cover the song and someone else speaking up and saying "Don't worry... we'll use my iPod, no problem). Everytime I see a band using tracks and hear it porrly balanced in the FOH mix I shake my head in slow mo.... "Noooooooooooooh!"Poor Tracks: While tracks themselves have come a long way and become more sophisticated there are still bands with little technical knowledge that are pulling poorly constructed tracks or worse... using the original recording to play along with in the most amatuer method of presentation. This makes the nausea level very high. A common arguement is "Well the audience will never notice" I argue that they do. I'll never forget when the local 5 piece guitar band in my area decided to stitch together a medley of songs with no beat matching, no master level mixing and no balance in the FOH between the band and FOH. Trainwreck doesn't describe the event. They were using orginal DJ tracks with the lead vocals removed so the awkward visual of watching middle aged white guys rapping with Lil Jon screaming over top of the track... well they could have all been made up as clowns and the effect would have been delivered better. People danced... but those that did, didn't engage the band. They turned their backs and danced with their partner... like someone would listening to a DJ. In other words there was nothing the band could do to command their attention. They were in effect background music at that point. No Visuals: The best bands on the market who are using tracks take visuals strongly in mind. I will hand it to the creative ones. They realize there is nothing exciting at all about a band lip syncing to a track. So they have invested $thousands into high end visuals... LCD screens, LCD curtains, intelliegent lighting... etc. It's funny... many of these bands don't own a PA or band van... but they do arrive with a roller case, lighting truss and other visual aides to make the experience more VMA like. Weak Front People: Does your singer have a decent voice? Check? Can your singer rap? Semi-check? Can your singer engage an audience... well this is the real test now right? B/C playing to a track there is little in musicianship and or energy coming from the stage... so the pressure is all on that frontperson to deliver that performance. This seperates the meek from the men... the girls from the woman. Many I see look awkward in delivery. Slave To The Click: I think the weakest element of bands that are dependent on these tracks for performance is that their performance becomes sterile and predictable. Most bands play through the entire song as delivered on the track. They can't ever deviate from the track because of the pre-recorded backing vocals and other cues. They become in effect a slave to the click. So their performance is exactly the same... from Friday to Sat to Sunday. Sterile and uninspiring. Now they are giving the audience what it wants... their favorite song. But they are robbing the audinece the performance they deserve... a real band delivering the soundtrack in a style the band normally performs in. As I said there are good bands on the scene that have taken all of the above into consideration and worked to create a dynamic presentation. I've walked away from shows saying they killed it. I didn't even notice they were using tracks b/c the singers and band were seemless in how they used them I certainly don't enjoy watching a band play along to tracks but when I walk away from a band that completely sold the experience I do admire them for the work, care and talent they took to pull that performance off. Unfortunately there are very few bands at that level. And there are many more bad bands that look at that style of presentation as a quick ticket to the better gigs on the circuit. So the question is are the vast majority of bands working to create a better live experience for people inside of the clubs or are most just trying to get by, watch what the big bands do and mimic that for pay far cheaper than most working bands would accept? Is this helping or hurting the club scene? 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Members Vito Corleone Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 I think where you really nailed it on the head is noting that there ARE some bands who do this well and the rest are a bunch of imitators. Unfortunately, this has pretty much been the case since the beginning of live music and extends into all sorts of other areas of endeavor as well.If somebody can do something well and earn good money doing it, no doubt there are going to be 100 others who will try to do the same thing but fail because they don't have the talent or skill. The REAL problem isn't that these pretenders exist, but that they get work and sometimes take A-list gigs from A-list bands simply because they will do it for less regardless of how lame their act is. All you can do is hope time ends up separating the wheat from the chaff, I suppose.My guess (and it's only a guess) is that this is probably only going to become more prevalant in the future but that we're just on the early end of things. I would guess that using-tracks-so-that-more-time-and-money-can-be-spent-focusing-on-visuals is going to be the future for a lot of 'live' club performances. The A-list acts of the future are going to be the ones who figure out how to take it all to the next level and the 'dad bands' of the future will remain much like the lame stuff you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeff42 Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 wheresgrant3 wrote:Slave To The Click: I think the weakest element of bands that are dependent on these tracks for performance is that their performance becomes sterile and predictable. Most bands play through the entire song as delivered on the track. They can't ever deviate from the track because of the pre-recorded backing vocals and other cues. They become in effect a slave to the click. So their performance is exactly the same... from Friday to Sat to Sunday. Sterile and uninspiring. Now they are giving the audience what it wants... their favorite song. But they are robbing the audience the performance they deserve... a real band delivering the soundtrack in a style the band normally performs in. I've seen this happen with these LapPop bands. One instance that pops in my head was at a local casino. A bunch of friends went to see a band that we all saw before. They were awesome the 1st time but this time there was something "off" about them. They just didn't have that certain something. Now, most of my friends couldn't put their finger on it but they were bored by them. It took about 2 songs for me to realize what it was. Almost everyone was "pretending to play" All but the drummer (but he was just lightly playing a simple beat and not adding much) and the singer- the singer had at least 3 backing vocal tracks to help him along. I was insulted. I have seen more and more agency bands playing less and less live parts. There is a way to use tracks and a way not to. Dancing around with an unplugged guitar pretending to play is NOT the way!I also saw one band of 20somethings get publicly pissed they didn't win a BOTB contest and the soundman said something like I think the judges actually wanted you kids to "PLAY" not play along with your ipod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 PRETENDING to play? WTF? What's the point of paying a guy to hold a guitar? Unless she's a hot model, I guess. Like Robert Palmer's old band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 Ugh..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleWiggler Posted October 31, 2013 Members Share Posted October 31, 2013 Grant,You know where I sit in all of this. I have done the no tracked/kind of tracked/tracked bands for the last 20 years. I was using midi tracks with custom synth programming backing back in the 90's to do a 80's band with 2 guys. We were doing 3-4 nights a week for 5 years.We use tracks to pull off what we can't play live. Sometimes a lot, sometimes none at all. We are also completely direct except the drummer and all use in-ears. I use an AxeFX for guitar and the bass goes into a direct box.We have 2 great fronts - both veterans of a local amusement park daily show.I put the tracks together. We send 8-10 channels depending on the song. Output is 24 bit .wav files through a RME UFX. This is critical and why I think our stuff sounds better than other tracked bands. Depending on the PA/Room parts of the backing tracks may need to be adjusted. I own the PA, and we always use a sound person.I know a few other bands that are doing the bad midi track/karaoke. They are getting the low paying stuff.Good or bad? For us, it works. Crowds love it and venue owners are booking and paying more for us than when we showed up untracked a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 1, 2013 Author Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 LittleWiggler wrote: Grant, You know where I sit in all of this. I have done the no tracked/kind of tracked/tracked bands for the last 20 years. I was using midi tracks with custom synth programming backing back in the 90's to do a 80's band with 2 guys. We were doing 3-4 nights a week for 5 years. We use tracks to pull off what we can't play live. Sometimes a lot, sometimes none at all. We are also completely direct except the drummer and all use in-ears. I use an AxeFX for guitar and the bass goes into a direct box. We have 2 great fronts - both veterans of a local amusement park daily show. I put the tracks together. We send 8-10 channels depending on the song. Output is 24 bit .wav files through a RME UFX. This is critical and why I think our stuff sounds better than other tracked bands. Depending on the PA/Room parts of the backing tracks may need to be adjusted. I own the PA, and we always use a sound person. I know a few other bands that are doing the bad midi track/karaoke. They are getting the low paying stuff. Good or bad? For us, it works. Crowds love it and venue owners are booking and paying more for us than when we showed up untracked a few years ago. Well you know I've given you great compliments on your tracks. If anything you would be an example of a band doing things right. Terrific lighting (committment to presentation), and well balanced tracks and mix. You've invested alot into the project and I'd predict you'll get alot of return as well. Something else about your band... you are performing seemlessly along with the tracks. I wouldn't have thought you were tracked unless I had inspected up close. We have our own tracks that we've created and use in our set as well (90's hip hop medley). It Includes Jump Around, Humpty Dance, Insane In The Membrane, Brass Monkey. Since we created the track we can move around and add additional instrumentation and vocals. No click... none needed. Hip hop is way easy to keep a beat to it. that medley takes up 7 mins of a 1 hr set. We do it for the novelty and frankly to play the tracks in real time we'd be using TR-808's and TR909 samples. So I'm not anti backing track. It's just when dozens of bands overly depend on them or abuse them. It's become the new mold of bands from agencies... so I'm hoping our new line up and presentation breaks that mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted November 1, 2013 Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 mstreck wrote: Ugh..... Mike I'm sure you know these guys, one of the "top" bands at the casino you've seen me play. These guys are almost all tracks from what I've been told by some people who are on the inside. Sequenced keys, karaoke tracks, the whole bit. Watch the drummer on this clip, he's not even hitting them and it's drum machine sounds. (fast forward to around 1:45 before the band starts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted November 1, 2013 Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 LittleWiggler wrote: Grant, You know where I sit in all of this. I have done the no tracked/kind of tracked/tracked bands for the last 20 years. I was using midi tracks with custom synth programming backing back in the 90's to do a 80's band with 2 guys. We were doing 3-4 nights a week for 5 years. We use tracks to pull off what we can't play live. Sometimes a lot, sometimes none at all. We are also completely direct except the drummer and all use in-ears. I use an AxeFX for guitar and the bass goes into a direct box. We have 2 great fronts - both veterans of a local amusement park daily show. I put the tracks together. We send 8-10 channels depending on the song. Output is 24 bit .wav files through a RME UFX. This is critical and why I think our stuff sounds better than other tracked bands. Depending on the PA/Room parts of the backing tracks may need to be adjusted. I own the PA, and we always use a sound person. I know a few other bands that are doing the bad midi track/karaoke. They are getting the low paying stuff. Good or bad? For us, it works. Crowds love it and venue owners are booking and paying more for us than when we showed up untracked a few years ago. THIS is how it's done gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 1, 2013 Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 Doesn't Dave use a projector in his band, onto a screen behind the drummer? That might be a cheaper way to do it. My projector at home is 122" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted November 1, 2013 Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 Projector with screen is the way to go I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 1, 2013 Members Share Posted November 1, 2013 StratGuy22 wrote: Doesn't Dave use a projector in his band, onto a screen behind the drummer? That might be a cheaper way to do it. My projector at home is 122" That's what we do. The limitations are where to place it. And on shallow stages getting the picture big enough. The truely short-throw projectors can get to be pretty pricey. And unless you have a way to mount it in the center-front (front trussing) then you have deal with the picture being off-center.We set the projector somewhat off to the side (usually above my keyboard rig) and I cornerstone it into "square". A 12' deep stage will usually give us enough throw to cover the about 8' x 8' screen behind the drummer. The further off to the side the projector is, the longer the throw as when you cornerstone you can only make the long sides shorter, not make the short sides longer. It works for what we do and is a pretty good effect for the $$$. Ideally, I'd like to have specific images for each song, but I'm not that ambitious yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted November 2, 2013 Members Share Posted November 2, 2013 Of course I know that. Just making a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeeU 22 Posted November 3, 2013 Members Share Posted November 3, 2013 Hey Grant, Is that your old guitarist playing with The Zoo?Did they not do that reality show with Carson Daily a few years back. I think the guy from 3rd Eye Blind was one of the judges.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kevin T Posted November 4, 2013 Members Share Posted November 4, 2013 We are not all hiphop djs named Tony. I live in the. N.western part with more cows /horses than people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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