KICKING THINGS UP A BIG NOTCH IN 2014.

[wheresgrant3]

 

... but maybe we should go bigger. 

 

We just pulled the trigger on two 47" LCD Displays (a Cyber Monday sale at $399 each) and the plan is to intergrate video into the show. We've been talking about this for years and we feel now with a new line up, new song material, and new name we felt now was the time to intergrate this and come out with both arms swinging. My fear is those arms maybe aren't as big as they should be but this is what we'll have to work with for a while.

 

 

We've been researching this a while and once we got our new singers aboard we felt this is really what we need to reset the switch. The original idea was to go with an LED backdrop or fabric display like we see some higher end agency bands moving toward, but it was simply cost prohibative. ($10K plus) We had just $2000 to play with. It's been a tough year and we haven't gigged that much in the last 4 months (3-4 shows a month). So this may bridge the gap until we can afford a higher end display solution. 

 

We went with 47" displays cuz.... well the 42-47" dual case cost $550 and the 50-55" cost $850. I could have got two 50" TV's for $499 each... but when we added up the costs it was $500 more than we had to spend. My fear is the size of the displays will look like a postage stamp 30 feet away... but the truth is I don't think the difference between 47"-50" is huge anyway. One A-list Agency band is using a 74" wide screen display. They run $2500 and the custom case is $1000+. The problem is you have to hang it high... at least 7 feet to get any clearance without a dedicated stage. Additionally the weight is more than 50lbs which would require us to buy a brand new truss system.  I like the idea of video being in the dead center of the stage however as we've seen with these bigger displays that is not always possible  given smaller venues and room dimmensions. Having two displays at eye level or higher will at least provide some visual candy and their placement is much more flexible. What we spent:

 

2-47" TV's $399

$550 Duel Case: 

 

 

$15 Wall Mount:  

 

 

$2 HDMI Saver :

 

$70 HDMI  splitter: 

 

 

$ 80 HDMI cables : 

 

 

 

$18 O - C-Clamps : 

 

 

$172 hydraulic Speaker stands: 

 

 

$299 Video Mixing Software: 

 

In total we kept it at budget... just under $2000.  My big concern is that a 47" display might look like postage stamp from 40 feet away... but  even in the largest clubs the people aren't that far away from the band. At least the ones interested in the band. Who knows, maybe a smaller display might draw them closer. 

 

We have lots of ideas on video content for the displays. Originally I was going to splice together small movies I would edit to play along side the long medleys we play. But we've decided against that... without the video sync'd into a clip or our drummer's beat there's no way we could keep the video in sync with the band. So that leaves live mixing which both I and our lighting tech will manage. There are a few songs I don't play on (no keys or only some keys needed) so we will leave a laptop set where our lighting guy controls the lights and both and I will handle mix duties. Some recorded content and also some live video which we will shoot using a camera on stage. The software we seem to be settling on is Resolume which is the industry standard. It allows three mix cue environments so we can queue video clips as some are running and it will also process live video as well. 

 

For the money we saved we will increase setup time, extra gear to transport and setup and some additional time in creating and managing video content... but we really do need something along with the other improvements we've made this year to make the band pop. Almost every time we've made a major investment into the band (PA, lights) we've had a significant return on draw which helps us getting paid. I'm sure I'll be posting video... of both sucess and screw ups along the way. LOL

[Vito Corleone]

Sounds very cool!   But my concern would be that the screens are too small for a live band on stage as well.

You can always go bigger at a later time though.   But I think that agency band probably uses a 74" screen for a reason.

 

[wheresgrant3]

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guido61 wrote:

Sounds very cool!   But my concern would be that the screens are too small for a live band on stage as well.

You can always go bigger at a later time though.   But I think that agency band probably uses a 74" screen for a reason.

 

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Very True... That agency band is also getting $3000 a nightclub show and has been around 19 years. But as the economy has tanked they have had to book smaller rooms for smaller pay.. and watching them set up that 74" display to the side of stage or not set it up at all b/c of lack of ceiling hieght is proof that if you do invest and think big... you'd better have the stage to support it.  

 

I still think LED Fabric is the way to go in the future. Just need to wait for the price to come down. A few $5000

 

[StratGuy22]

That's what she said.

[vort]

 

Grant -

Thanks for posting this.  I've long been kicking around the idea of using video for a backdrop, so I love these conversations.  I will follow your trials with interest. 

 

The more I research, it seems the most efficent and cost effect method would be a setup similar to Guido's.  A projector with horizontal keystone.  There are Epson models out that have decent lumins and keystone for probably at or less what you paid for the LCD's.  What made you decide on the LCD's vs a projector?  Projection screens are easy enough, there are Lycra/Spandex screens available which make hanging from a truss and transport super easy. 

 

The other consideration I need more research into is video software.  I'll have to take a look at the program you bought.  At a minimum what I'd like is a program that could use Winamp's Milkdrop 2 visualizer,  sound activated (one of the best visualizers imo), and have it fade into a banner graphic during breaks.  The ability to add other video and an audience camera would be a plus.  Ideally it would need to be something that could be operated from stage (with no sound/light guy) or from a FOH position. 

Cable management is another consideration.  Especially if running from FOH.  Although with more programs adopting IPad/mobile control, it may make things easier than having a long run or wireless VGA.

 

Sorry for hijacking your thread. 

[StratGuy22]

I'm. The same with JLB. Man Id LOVE to have a lights only house gig with room to really stretch my legs. I think 1 TV on each side, have various ways to display your logos, random patterns, even maybe a webcam or go pro you could have on the truss, pointed at the crowd. Have your DJ also VJ while you guys play. Or you might even be able to set up basically video chases.

 

3 different logos, 30 seconds each

Crowd show for 30seconds

 

Back in the day we would videotape our gigs. We would run a line to the DJ booth and they would patch is into all the TV's in the joint...

 

 

[sventvkg]

So why doesn't a good projector and screen work? I thought there were some projectors that can fill the screen from only a few feet away as well as behind the screen? Those small 47's are too small though man..I have one in my living room and from even 7 feet away they seem small now and the gig I was on this weekend had 2 47's on either side of the stage. From the bar which was about 25 feet away they looked tiny. I can't imagine amy real impact on visuals from them and I have been thinking of video as well in the context of my tracks band i'm working on. My corporate band also wants to step it up and the band leader told me  he looked into the projectors and the ones that would be bright enough and output powerfully enough are like $6K...I was floored! Anyone with any info on this would be greatly welcomed here:).

 

Regarding the cases..I think what I would have done is reinforced the factor boxes the TV's come with board and glue, gaffer tape etc for now and bought 2, $1K 60" TV's to start with and stands!!! That seems to be the smallest size that would make a decent impact.I'd probably put them on both sides in the back of the stage...Anyway, i'm still riffing on this set up as well..

 

That  Resolume software looks very promising and I admid, I had never even heard of it, so thanks for the info! Good luck and keep us posted man Nice to see someone out there trying to kick things up and willing to put the $$ in.

[TIMKEYS]

back in the day we used an overhead projector and oil emersion. Water, veggie oil, and food coloring.... real cosmic lol

[wheresgrant3]

 

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sventvkg wrote:

So why doesn't a good projector and screen work? I thought there were some projectors that can fill the screen from only a few feet away as well as behind the screen? Those small 47's are too small though man..I have one in my living room and from even 7 feet away they seem small now and the gig I was on this weekend had 2 47's on either side of the stage. From the bar which was about 25 feet away they looked tiny. I can't imagine amy real impact on visuals from them and I have been thinking of video as well in the context of my tracks band i'm working on. My corporate band also wants to step it up and the band leader told me  he looked into the projectors and the ones that would be bright enough and output powerfully enough are like $6K...I was floored! Anyone with any info on this would be greatly welcomed here:).

 

Regarding the cases..I think what I would have done is reinforced the factor boxes the TV's come with board and glue, gaffer tape etc for now and bought 2, $1K 60" TV's to start with and stands!!! That seems to be the smallest size that would make a decent impact.I'd probably put them on both sides in the back of the stage...Anyway, i'm still riffing on this set up as well..

 

That 

 Resolume software looks very promising and I admid, I had never even heard of it, so thanks for the info! Good luck and keep us posted man

Nice to see someone out there trying to kick things up and willing to put the $$ in.

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All these are good points and may be true... I certainly agree with you! . And again money. Two years ago when we first considered this we were gigging 7-12 times a month. These days we are rebuilding our club schedule. Not including NYE we have 5 dates in Jan, 4 in Feb, 5 in March. We'll probably rethink this in a year but we''ll need a good 6-8 months of solid bookings. Then I'd like to make the jump to LED fabric or a larger central display. Like Guido... this is our affordable way of 'getting by". The good news is... for what we paid for these we should be able to sell them maybe as a package (along with the case) for not much less than what we paid for it. 

 

 

 

[Vito Corleone]

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sventvkg wrote:

So why doesn't a good projector and screen work? I thought there were some projectors that can fill the screen from only a few feet away as well as behind the screen? Those small 47's are too small though man..I have one in my living room and from even 7 feet away they seem small now and the gig I was on this weekend had 2 47's on either side of the stage. From the bar which was about 25 feet away they looked tiny. I can't imagine amy real impact on visuals from them and I have been thinking of video as well in the context of my tracks band i'm working on. My corporate band also wants to step it up and the band leader told me  he looked into the projectors and the ones that would be bright enough and output powerfully enough are like $6K...I was floored! Anyone with any info on this would be greatly welcomed here:).

 

Regarding the cases..I think what I would have done is reinforced the factor boxes the TV's come with board and glue, gaffer tape etc for now and bought 2, $1K 60" TV's to start with and stands!!! That seems to be the smallest size that would make a decent impact.I'd probably put them on both sides in the back of the stage...Anyway, i'm still riffing on this set up as well..

 

That 

 Resolume software looks very promising and I admid, I had never even heard of it, so thanks for the info! Good luck and keep us posted man

Nice to see someone out there trying to kick things up and willing to put the $$ in.

---

Projectors can certainly get pricey (what can't these days?).   If you wanted to have anything approaching LED TV levels of brightness and clarity, I would think you'd have to spend a lot.   Whether it needs to be $6K?   I dunno.  Whether you even need that or not at this level?    That's another issue I suppose.

My biggest concern with such big TVs would be transport and safety.    Maybe I underestimate their durability?   A projector is a small thing to keep safe.   You can't break a screen.  

But yeah...the 47"s would be too small, IMO also.   I was in Costco yesterday and I thought of Grant while looking at the different TVs.    I don't see how anything less than 60" would work, to be honest.

But

[Vito Corleone]

 

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sventvkg wrote:

 

 

So why doesn't a good projector and screen work? I thought there were some projectors that can fill the screen from only a few feet away as well as behind the screen?

---

 

Both of these options have limitations.    Behind the screen is a nice idea until you think about how many stages you play on where you're backed up to the wall.  You have to have SOME space between the projector and the screen.

Same with the idea of a super-short-throw projector from in front.  If your drummer is in front of the screen, you've got to figure out where you're going to place it.

Ideally it would work best for bands that carry a truss across the front of the stage.   Or playing stages that do.

[Vito Corleone]

Yeah, we don't bother with lights at all if we are playing outdoors in the daylight.

[jcpatte2]

I'm following this thread with great intrigue, as I'm planning to do this very same thing, with my performances in the near future. So please keep us updated as the project evolves. I'm particularly interested in the technical aspects of making all this work. Especially, the creation of content. I would like to mix graphics somehow with the music videos for the covers we're performing while tiring it all together color-scheme and thematically-wise with the LED lighting.

 

BTW, after exhaustive research comparing LED Video Screens/Projectors/TVs, etc. I too have landed on Flat Screens as the most economical and simple approach. I'm leaning toward starting out with a couple of these.....

 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/VIZIO-E601i-A3-60-1080p-120Hz-Class-Razor-LED-1.94-ultra-slim-Smart-HDTV-VIZIO-Direct-Refurbished/24516217#Product+Reviews

 

60" Flat Screens as a starting point to an eventual video wall. 60" seems to be the best value:performance right now.

 

Cool stuff, and I can't wait to hear more about how this process unfold for you guys.

[vort]

Awesome work by all involved. I'm very happy for your continued success. I must admit though that some of that is selfishness on my part as I really enjoy and appreciate your posts here.

 

Did you decide on software for the video portion?

[jcpatte2]

Not to hijack or convert this thread, but i saw Guido61 had posted over in the lighting forum and that the Showbuddy product for DMXIS had been mentioned here or there. Can't remember which.

 

From my experience and what I understand, Showbuddy is perfect and simple, if you plan to play the songs within the show the same every night. You can even have it trigger your video/projection material in a separate program such as Resolume via midi. But, if you wanna have the ability to vamp sections or go 'off-course' with any segment of the show, you're gonna have to step up to a much more robust and complicated software, like Ableton Live, to sync your tracks/lighting/visual content. My $0.02.

[Vito Corleone]

 

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jcpatte2 wrote:

 

Not to hijack or convert this thread, but i saw Guido61 had posted over in the lighting forum and that the Showbuddy product for DMXIS had been mentioned here or there. Can't remember which.

 

 

 

From my experience and what I understand, Showbuddy is perfect and simple, if you plan to play the songs within the show the same every night. You can even have it trigger your video/projection material in a separate program such as Resolume via midi. But, if you wanna have the ability to vamp sections or go 'off-course' with any segment of the show, you're gonna have to step up to a much more robust and complicated software, like Ableton Live, to sync your tracks/lighting/visual content. My $0.02.

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Thanks for that recommendation.   Helps confirm the decision I made to go with Ableton Live based on what others said here as well. 

Now I've just got to buy it, a new laptop, and the new light fixtures.  Haha!  One big switch we're going to make with the light show is to scrap the par-cans-on-trees (I've never liked the look of light trees anyway) and go with trusses mounted to stand on-end and then hang the lighting vertically.   At first with two for either side of the front of the stage and then maybe another pair later on for the rear.   I think that will be a more defined, more pro and "techy" look.  

Also we'll get a couple of moving head lights to mount on top of the trusses and maybe a couple more for the floor.    Still trying to figure out which moving head lights to get though.   Those are a pretty big purchase.  I don't want to make the wrong one.