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Need dedicated reverb and delay?


davenit

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I have used a bunch of multi fx units and have never been really thrilled with the verb and delay out of them. I have not used really expensive units. My main complaint is that they have sounded way too, well, digital. High frequency sharpness, almost metalic.

 

If I wanted to go with a dedicated unit for verb and another for delay which should I look at? Or is a unit like the G-Force a smoother more natural sounding box? And on that note is the G-Major's Verb and Delay the same stuff used in the force?

 

Thanks to all in advance...

 

Dave

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this unit is old, but sounds great, the Lexicon LXP-1. Reverb is dense but warm, definitely not "digital"-sounding. It also has delay built in, but i don't necessarily recommend the delays because the time adjustment is in steps, ie you cannot set it to any delay time you like, only to the preset increments. that is, unless you have the external programming module, which i don't.

 

the LXP-1 can be found on eBay for a little over $100. be sure to get the manual or you will be lost when you try to store your MIDI presets. i know, it only has 5 knobs, how hard can it be to program, you say? trust me!

 

I have tried some of the later Lexicon reverbs and although they have more features/programmability, I still havent heard anything that sounds as sweet as the LXP-1 to my ears.

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What processors have you used so far? Cheap multi effect processors weak link is always the reverb as a good reverb requires a ton of processing. The delay chain on a processor is often the next most processor intensive effect. Many players want the sonic flexability and "cleanliness" of a digital delay but without the perfect high end that digital gives. So they use delays that have a high end roll-off function to "warm" the delays up.

 

Using dedicated units for one function each gives you the most flexability and sound quality by matching the unit to the job. Using a multi-effect is always a compromise, maybe it's good enough for you and maybe it's not. I use 3 processors in my rig. One strictly for modulation effects, one for delays/chorus and one for delays/chorus or reverb alone. This requires a switching system and a much bigger rack but the sound is, to me, worth it.

 

So given all that? What have you used and what kind of sound are you going for?

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Flat Firth Fury here is the list of units tried/used/owned - Quadraverb, Alpha, Intellifex, Ips 33b (harmonizer but OK for delays) and a bevy of units that you find in any GC, Sam Ash, local guitar stores. I have never tried any lexicon or TC units.

 

Let me say that while these all produced some nice reverbs or delays, the sound just wasn't lush enough, or smooth enough. They always had that high frequency "shrill" digital sound that I just can't stand.

 

I have recently just got back into playing and am redoing the rack. I have 2 spaces saved up for a dedicated verb unit and one for a delay/chorus. I am looking to get into a Metal/Fusion project soon and need to cover some large territory as far as verb and delay goes.

 

What do you use and why? Lugging a few extra pounds never bothered me so if I need extra spaces to get the sound I am looking for, so be it. - Thanks for taking the time.

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Have you considered the Kurzweil Rumor? This is a dedicated rack unit that features many of the same algorithms as the far more expensive KSP-8. Many online reviews have spoken favorably of the reverbs in this unit. The price new is around $500.

 

One day I will own one of these.

 

-Paul

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My effects tastes are simple so I have been able ot get what Iwant out of the intellifex.

 

However, the T.C Electronics M-One is dedicated to reverb and delay.I would consider that. Also, as mentioned above, Lexicon reverbs are really killer. The MPX-1 has some serious reverbs but for me personally, I find it overkill for a guitar rack.

 

One thing that might be a great idea for oyu is to run yoru effects in paralell to your amp/preamp. This is accomplished by buying a line mixer which is a one space mixer that bolts into your rack.It works liek a studio mixer but is alot simpler

 

I know you need to save money but I thought i would throw it out there to you.I used to run all my effects serially like most people do til my ears started getting good and I was able to hear lots of differences with sounds that I never used to hear.

 

If you are interested in learning more about how a mixer works, you can check out the mixer article at www.hugeracks.com

 

THe mixer that I use is made in France by Sylsonic.It is the best sounding but is a bit expensive.Rane and DMC also make this type of mixer

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Originally posted by davenit

Mike thanks!!! I will look into that unit. Any thoughts on delay?


Thanks again

Dave

 

 

naw, i really don't have a recommendation on a great dedicated delay unit. I used to have the Yamaha SPX-90 and Digitech Time Machine, which were crappy sounding. Now, I just use the ART SGX T2 (for delays only) because i have had it for years. It has many delay algorithms and plenty of parameters to tweak and sounds very clean (and "digital"-sounding), but you can dummy it down a bit with the high freq roll-off and diffusion parameters to get a warmer sounding analog-style delay sound. I am sure there are some good units out there for you, but i havent done any delay shopping in a decade.

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Well Dave, I use a Rocktron Multivalve for modulations, a Korg DL8000R for delays/chorus and a Rocktron Intellifex for delays and reverb.

 

(Ahem!)

Delay units:

 

Korg SDD-3000 - classic and very warm sounding delay unit. Dated, not very flexable (mono in) but the sound keeps it in many pro's rigs.

 

Roland SDE-3000 - same as above with a different flavor.

 

Roland SDE-330 - replaced the SDE-3000 and is a stereo in/out unit with multi-tap delays and chorus.

 

Korg DL8000R multi-tap delay - a wonderful sounding, very powerful (8 tap chorus/flange!!!) and totally overlooked unit. Check this one out. They don't make them anymore but you can find them used - I got mine for $325 USD and love it.

 

TC Electronics D-Two - excellent unit but is not true stereo. Many people are using two D-Two's for stereo applications. The problem is that The D-Two has really only one delay line and a variable second tap that can only be 200ms longer (offset) from the first one. If all you are doing is short delays then that's no problem but if you want to do any real stereo pan delays (300ms right, 600ms left) you can't do it.

 

Rocktron Intellifex - still a great unit after all these years. The only thing that it doesn't have is a tap-tempo function. Everything else is killer especially it's 8 voice chorus which is addicting as hell once you start using it.

 

(Reverbs)

 

Intellifex - I happen to think that it has pretty good reverbs - not the best as a studio reverb unit but more than good enough for a guitar rig. The key is to working the room size and high end roll off - I use the large room and small hall most of the time with my clean tones and always use atleast 30% high roll off. Make sure that you use the reverb only algorithm so that you have access to all the perameters.

 

Roland SRV-2000 - very dated but great sounding reverb unit that is still used in both pro guitar rigs and studios for it's warm sound.

 

Roland SRV-330 - updated version of the SRV-2000. Different character but more flexability and lower noise, if that matters.

 

Lexicon LXP-1 - cool old unit that has a very rich reverb. It has a terrible interface, like most Lexicon units, and the deep editing that you want to do to tweek it is only available through midi editing software like Sound Diver but the little bugger has a lot of fans. And it's cheap!

 

There are other processors to look into. I'd suggest both the Lexicon MPX-1 and the TC Electronics M2000. Both are dual processor units so that you can dedicate on to reverbs and use the other for something else. They both have excellent reverbs and their other effects are very good as well.

 

 

As for the G-Force v. G-Major, the G-Force has much more processing power than the G-Major. The G-Major has the same fake stereo delay problem as the D-Two so that counts it out in my book. It's a good sounding unit but it's still trying to do too much to do any one thing really well. the G-Force is better but there is a preset loading delay that is a total pain when playing live. If you have a unit with a loading delay within a system with multiple effects units, there are ways to get around it but if you only have one processor, it's pretty noticable.

 

There are other options but these initially come to mind.

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I use all seperate processor in my rig and feel it`s well worth the extra weight and any associated trouble. It sounds spectacular!

 

Here`s my layout and I`ve gone thru great pains listening and trying just about all that`s out there.

 

Reverb---TC- M2000

Delays---2 -TC Dtwo`s

Modulation---2 -TC scf`s one on chorus one on flange

Line6 modpro

Voodoo labs-analog chorus

Voodoo labs -tremolo (4 knob version)

Voodoo labs- microvibe

Pitch---Lexicon MPX-1

 

The mpx-1 is a nice swiss army knife if I occasionally want additional delays, or a different character reverb.

 

The mopro is another swiss army knife if I want phasing, flanging, or even tremolo that is in time. I can tap in the tempo via CC thru my midi footswitch.

 

As far as dedicated reverb I think the M2000 is heads and shoulders above anything near the price range. It smokes! No graininess, or flutter. It is spot on smooth, rich, and airy. Very clear and open sounding. It creates a nice space without the typical artifacts you hear from most digital delays. It was orginally a $1200 unit and can now be had for around $500-600 bucks. I`ve owned an Intellifex and an Intelliverb and they are both decent but the m2000 is heads and shoulders above them both.

 

As far as dedicated delays, I love the sound quality of the Dtwo. Neither the gmajor or the gforce touch it. Particuarly the gmajor as far as sound quality. It does have the drawback FFF mentioned above which is why I have two of them.

I hear great things about the Korg unit if you can find one. I also hear the symetrix 606 is a great dedicated delay if you can locate one.

 

 

my 2 cents,

 

 

Tom

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Originally posted by Pauly

You've got alot of stuff packed in your rig Tone Doctor.
:)

 

LOL, yeah and that`s just the DSP`s and the modulation effects. That`s only half of the rig.

 

btw, good point made in the earlier post about a mixer.

If you have a dsp in your rig you should have a mixer. This should be automatic as far as I`m concerned. Converting a dry amp tone to digital and back really screw up a good raw tone and the mixer is the way to prevent that.

 

 

Tom

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Originally posted by tonedoctor1



LOL, yeah and that`s just the DSP`s and the modulation effects. That`s only half of the rig.


btw, good point made in the earlier post about a mixer.

If you have a dsp in your rig you should have a mixer. This should be automatic as far as I`m concerned. Converting a dry amp tone to digital and back really screw up a good raw tone and the mixer is the way to prevent that.



Tom

 

 

Is the mixer a step farther than a parallel effects loop or is this the way to get around a series loop?

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Mixers accomplish the same thing as a parallel effects loop. The idea is to allow one to blend the wet and dry signals to retain some of the uneffected sound prior to effects processing.

 

Think of the mixer like the blend function on a parallel effects loop amp.

 

HTH,

 

-Paul

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So how do you use a mixer? I'm trying to visualize how to use it and how you wire it. If you take the send from the amp effects loop into the mixer, then what? Do you assign the signal to two channels panned left and right, then send one to the DSP? But then how would I get the two signal paths back into the return on my amp?

 

I must be missing something obvious!

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Hey Guys,

 

A mixer in a guitar rig is similar to what you would accomplish with a parallel effects loop but you can generally go further. This of course depends on the mixer. In most cases a dedicated mixer for guitar or bass rigs will have a dual mix ie: cae dual stereo mini mixer, dmc mix plus or dual line mixer, etc etc.

 

The dual stereo mix allows you to mix combinations of series and parallel mixing which is beyond what a simple parallel effects loop on an head or combo can do. It is also consist of several patch points which is also beyond the capacity of a simple parallel effects loop.

A parallel effects loop is generally only good if you are using only one dsp effect. Unless you are chaining all the dsp`s together via a digital connection ie; s/pdif, or aes-ebu.

 

Another piece that goes well beyond any of these is the switchblade gl by soundsculpture. It is basically a midi programmable mixer and switching system with real time midi capability. It gets really deep as far as possibilities.

 

These are a few of the options that are out there, but the idea is if you are running directly thru a dsp effect/s you are degrading your orginal source tone unless you incorporate the ability to mix that unaltered source tone with the effected sound. This has to be done in a analog environment or you are defeating the purpose. The devices I mentioned above are some of the more common place devices used to accomplish this. Check it out for yourself. Try running thru a processor and then try it with the processor patched in a loop on a mixer with the processor set for full wet signal(100% wet is essential otherwise you`ll have phasing issues) and see what sounds better to you.

 

 

 

Tom

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Originally posted by billstets

So are you saying that if you're using only one DSP in an amp's parallel effects loop, you don't need a mixer?

 

 

I would say that yes you could get away without a mixer in this particular situation and be fine. All loops are not created equal though, but then I guess neither are mixers.

 

 

Tom

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