Sonic Maximizer ... Good or Bad?

[ibenhad]

I wasn't saying that it was like the TC Electronics I was saying they claim to both do phase shifting of sound acoustics. As far as the Behrenger that thing is just a ripoff off the BBE and I would never compare that to a fine piece of gear like TC makes. I said they have an item similar to the BBE which is called a Composer that has a "Dynamic Enhancer".

 

If you read what I posted from TC Electronics site about the spatial enhancement "Feature" of the unit it compares very much in sales speak to this from the BBE site :

 

 

To understand how BBE sound processing technology works, consider the characteristics of a loudspeaker and what we expect from one. Among a loudspeaker's most important requirements is the ability to reproduce transients - the brief high-energy bursts at the beginning of sounds. The transients then evolve into harmonics. It is the particular amplitudes and phase relationships of these transients and harmonics which add the unique color and character to each sound.

 

Varying either the amplitude or the phase of the transients and harmonics within signal causes distortion of the sound's characteristics. By drastically altering the transient response of a sound, it's possible to make a cymbal crash seem like a car crash. Similarly, altering amplitude or phase relationships of the harmonics in a clarinet's tone can make it sound more like a flute, or a French horn like an oboe.

 

A loudspeaker's transient response is typically expressed in terms of amplitude response (how quickly it reacts to an incoming signal), with little or no regard to phase response (whether high and low frequencies are reproduced at the proper time). The ability to accurately represent a sound's phase and amplitude define the quality of a loudspeaker's transient and steady - state, or sustained, response.

 

If a loudspeaker's amplitude response curve were linear, then the relationship between the high and low frequencies would be correct. And if a loudspeaker's phase response curve were linear, then the low and high frequencies would reach the listener's ears in their correct time order. This would result in faithful reproduction of the sound. However, this isn't normally the case.

 

The TC Electronics unit mind you is a real effects unit that provides so much more than any BBE or other type sound enhancing device. But my point was that it does have a sound enhancing feature.

 

Hope that helps...

[Zachman]

I wasn't saying that it was like the TC Electronics I was saying they claim to both do phase shifting of sound acoustics. As far as the Behrenger that thing is just a ripoff off the BBE and I would never compare that to a fine piece of gear like TC makes. I said they have an item similar to the BBE which is called a Composer that has a "Dynamic Enhancer". If you read what I posted from TC Electronics site about the spatial enhancement "Feature" of the unit it compares very much in sales speak to this from the BBE site : To understand how BBE sound processing technology works, consider the characteristics of a loudspeaker and what we expect from one. Among a loudspeaker's most important requirements is the ability to reproduce transients - the brief high-energy bursts at the beginning of sounds. The transients then evolve into harmonics. It is the particular amplitudes and phase relationships of these transients and harmonics which add the unique color and character to each sound. Varying either the amplitude or the phase of the transients and harmonics within signal causes distortion of the sound's characteristics. By drastically altering the transient response of a sound, it's possible to make a cymbal crash seem like a car crash. Similarly, altering amplitude or phase relationships of the harmonics in a clarinet's tone can make it sound more like a flute, or a French horn like an oboe. A loudspeaker's transient response is typically expressed in terms of amplitude response (how quickly it reacts to an incoming signal), with little or no regard to phase response (whether high and low frequencies are reproduced at the proper time). The ability to accurately represent a sound's phase and amplitude define the quality of a loudspeaker's transient and steady - state, or sustained, response. If a loudspeaker's amplitude response curve were linear, then the relationship between the high and low frequencies would be correct. And if a loudspeaker's phase response curve were linear, then the low and high frequencies would reach the listener's ears in their correct time order. This would result in faithful reproduction of the sound. However, this isn't normally the case. The TC Electronics unit mind you is a real effects unit that provides so much more than any BBE or other type sound enhancing device. But my point was that it does have a sound enhancing feature. Hope that helps...

 

Thanks for the clarification. Having a degree in Electronics Engineering, and experience using LOTS of various gear (Including the TC 2290, TC 1210, Eventide H8000FW, and Lexicon PCM-80-- in my current rig) in as many configurations-- has benefited me greatly when it comes to my own gear and making it do what I want it to, when I want it to, because I understand how it works, and how to work it.

 

The Haas effect which the 1210 is based upon, is different as I understand it, then what is going on w/ the BBE Sonic Maximizer.

 

From TC:

 

The TC 1210 actually consists of two complete stereo chorus flangers combined with

phase shifts and an advanced common circuitry to link and crossmix the units in

carefully controlled modes and combinations.

The principal ideas behind these combinations take their roots in the so called

[ibenhad]

Glad you got a degree in something because it sure isn't people skills. You win oh great master of the rack... Have a great life. Glad only your comments matter. Must be your over 15000 posts... Peace my man and have a great always win I'm smarter than everyone and my opinion is the only one that matters cuz I'm anonymous on the internet skippy dang doodle kinda day.

 

I'm going to go dig out my old ADA MP-1, Rocktron hush and BBE SONIC MAXIMIZER and make like the '80s is back.......

 

To all those who care try one out if ya like it ya do if ya don't ya don't. It's like F*****G toilet paper. Everyone likes something different. FWIW you wouldn't catch me covering up my playing with a rack oh s**t these days anyway... But whatever.... Peace out rock on and if you sound good through a cell phone amp (yeah they just released them) and you dig it, WHO THE F**K cares. It doesn't take a degree in anything or 15K in posts. It takes your ears and don't let anyone tell ya different. You either have them or you don't...

[RyGy]

So the TC unit expands the stereo immage, while the BBE unit is usually used in mono, and from what I have read the BBE is to make the sound from a 2 way (woofer, and tweeter) system sound better since they talk about delays ext. So they are completely different effects, just the names make them sound like they might do something similar.

I also have an Electronics Engineering degree, so I have a basic understanding of how things work, and clearly from Zach's description the TC unit will only create that effect in a stereo rig...unless I read it wrong.

I have never liked the sonic maximizer, or the Behringer version, and I have tried it in stereo, and mono. I just like the sound of a good guitar plugged into a good amp with a good cab, no effects, no pedals except maybe some EQ in the loop, and that is it.

[Zachman]

Glad you got a degree in something because it sure isn't people skills. You win oh great master of the rack... Have a great life. Glad only your comments matter. Must be your over 15000 posts... Peace my man and have a great always win I'm smarter than everyone and my opinion is the only one that matters cuz I'm anonymous on the internet skippy dang doodle kinda day. I'm going to go dig out my old ADA MP-1, Rocktron hush and BBE SONIC MAXIMIZER and make like the '80s is back....... To all those who care try one out if ya like it ya do if ya don't ya don't. It's like F*****G toilet paper. Everyone likes something different. FWIW you wouldn't catch me covering up my playing with a rack oh s**t these days anyway... But whatever.... Peace out rock on and if you sound good through a cell phone amp (yeah they just released them) and you dig it, WHO THE F**K cares. It doesn't take a degree in anything or 15K in posts. It takes your ears and don't let anyone tell ya different. You either have them or you don't...

 

I am not anonymous on the internet... I have met many very very cool people here, in person and have made some ULTRA cool friends. I receive several emails daily, and even converse via the phone with guys who have rig topics they want to address in detail.

 

I never claimed to be smarter than anyone, though I don't usually comment on things I don't understand.

 

My opinion IS the only one that matters to ME, regarding MY tone, rig, gear and the performance of my gear. The fact that I have a rig and have had several that many would like to have, and many more don't, can't, or won't-- and am available to share my thoughts on them with others who are interested, makes my perspective different than the anonymous douche bags- like you- on the internet who don't know {censored} about the gear, except for what they read on some blog, or article.

 

Those who want to act like a dick, and then demand to be treated with courteous people skills, are hypocrites, IMO- and though I should be nice even though they come across with a bit of an attitude, I usually don't and instead reciprocate-- giving their attitude right back to them.

(I don't need/want it, so it only seems fitting.)

 

Those who have asked my assistance and been cool, have gotten it no problem.

 

IF you think tone is in your fingers, try getting a flanger tone, or harmonic feedback (live) out of your unplugged electric guitar. You ever notice that different overdrives, distortion, univibes, choruses, delays, reverbs, harmonizers, amps, guitars, and guitar pickups etc... sound different, and have specs within a certain range and produce certain harmonic frequencies? How so, if tone is in your fingers???

 

FWIW, just because one has a lot of processors and /or a large rig doesn't mean that everything has to ALWAYS be on all the time. Learning to program, properly designing, & building a rig will yield much more mileage and make available many more options than otherwise, so you might want to think about that before you go spouting off incoherently again.

 

[petejt]

Zachman not really sure what your trying to prove or who you really think your winning a battle against but in almost half the racks you showed there was a TC Electronics spatial expander and if you look in the manual it does this: " By introducing delays in a stereo system we can move our experience of the position of the sound sources. In some respects these delays needed, are so short, that we merely regard them as phase shifts. This is one of the basics of most so called EXITER-effects, in which a slight and static broadening of the stereo image is created (primarily in the treble range). The careful combinations of phase shifts and delays within the TC 1210, enables a variety of STATIC SPATIAL EXPANSIONS, wide broadenings and psychoacoustic enhancements of the stereo image to be created. I am no expert but isn't that sorta the same principal behind the BBE sonic maximizers?

All that boils down to is that it does fancy chorusing, in very cool & dare I say quite twisted ways. And I mean that in the best way possible .
Lots of Doppler effects I guess?


The principle behind the BBE is that the bass frequencies lag behind the treble frequencies prior to the speaker, so the BBE 'aligns them together'.

[Zachman]

So the TC unit expands the stereo immage, while the BBE unit is usually used in mono, and from what I have read the BBE is to make the sound from a 2 way (woofer, and tweeter) system sound better since they talk about delays ext. So they are completely different effects, just the names make them sound like they might do something similar. I also have an Electronics Engineering degree, so I have a basic understanding of how things work, and clearly from Zach's description the TC unit will only create that effect in a stereo rig...unless I read it wrong. I have never liked the sonic maximizer, or the Behringer version, and I have tried it in stereo, and mono. I just like the sound of a good guitar plugged into a good amp with a good cab, no effects, no pedals except maybe some EQ in the loop, and that is it.

 

You did read & understand correctly, in stereo or dual mono. The delay that is implemented is between the L/R units. (The 1210 is 2 units in one, which can be run stereo or dual mono).

 

I concur, they are completely different effects/affects then the BBE Sonic Maximizer.

 

I guess when I take issue with what someone says, and correct their misunderstandings/misunderstood explanations--it's just me being a jerk.

 

When people like you and others validate what I said, it makes me feel better.

 

Thanks

[jimbles]

Marketing blurb is one of the most amoral things an engineer is ever asked to write, and that BBE blurb is a doozey... Perhaps it's something about this forum that attracts people with electronics degrees...

[Zachman]

 

Marketing blurb is one of the most amoral things an engineer is ever asked to write, and that BBE blurb is a doozey... Perhaps it's something about this forum that attracts people with electronics degrees...

 

 

Perhaps...

 

The guys into Monster Racks tend to embrace "tech" type topics, as they can find themselves quite immersed in technology with a monster rig.

[RyGy]

I would say that about 1/2 of the people in my electronics classes played guitar, or bass, and a few picked up guitars while studying electronics. I am not sure if this is normal or not, but it might be part of the reason.

[petejt]

To all those who care try one out if ya like it ya do if ya don't ya don't. It's like F*****G toilet paper. Everyone likes something different. FWIW you wouldn't catch me covering up my playing with a rack oh s**t these days anyway... But whatever.... Peace out rock on and if you sound good through a cell phone amp (yeah they just released them) and you dig it, WHO THE F**K cares. It doesn't take a degree in anything or 15K in posts. It takes your ears and don't let anyone tell ya different. You either have them or you don't...

holding back swearing with censorship is worse than cussing like a sailor


let it out

[Warmothrules]

If there was ever an effect that I have a love/hate relation ship with, it's my BBE Sonic Maximizer. Sometimes can't decide if it's the next best thing since sliced bread, or a destroyer of tone. It can really spice up your signal sometimes, other times it sounds overly harsh and brittle. Any thoughts?

Just turn up the knobs to the point where you just barely notice a difference. Stand back play threw it a few mins then hit bypass and you'll realize the BBE sonic maximizer is where it's at. Like I said just turn them two knobs up till you just barely hear a difference. You might have to turn down the presence or treble know just a hair on your actual amp.

[rasputin1963]

 

Just turn up the knobs to the point where you just barely notice a difference. Stand back play threw it a few mins then hit bypass and you'll realize the BBE sonic maximizer is where it's at. Like I said just turn them two knobs up till you just barely hear a difference. You might have to turn down the presence or treble know just a hair on your actual amp.

 

 

 

My thoughts, too. You want to turn the PROCESS knob right to the very point where you start to notice a difference... but no further.

 

The LOW FREQUENCY knob should get even less treatment; too much, and you'll start to get a "tubby" or "potty" sound.

[Rocklobsta1109]

I actually just sold my sonic maximizer on ebay because it just made me mad. When it's on it can sound good. Key word is CAN... it didn't do anything for my clean sounds and just kinda added more bass to my overdrive sounds, however, when the unit was "bypassed" it made everything sound much worse. Probably the biggest tone robbing piece I've tried in my rack so far when it's off. It's a good idea but not properly executed. I'd really like to give the 1210 a try though and see how it compares.

[Zachman]

 

I actually just sold my sonic maximizer on ebay because it just made me mad. When it's on it can sound good. Key word is CAN... it didn't do anything for my clean sounds and just kinda added more bass to my overdrive sounds, however, when the unit was "bypassed" it made everything sound much worse. Probably the biggest tone robbing piece I've tried in my rack so far when it's off. It's a good idea but not properly executed. I'd really like to give the 1210 a try though and see how it compares.

 

 

The TC 1210 is an entirely different kind of piece of equipment than the sonic maximizer- and is a STELLAR quality piece. I LOVE mine!!!

[teamoldskool42]

this is a very good topic...ive had one in my rack since the 80's...when i had a ADA..Soladno...Halfer preamps...even a Jmp-1. its sounded great i thought...what those Pre-Amps lacked was a EQ....it gave a little more thump and bite when needed..

ive since sold all those Pre-amps and bought a Rocktron Prophesy but still had the BBE in the rack...my rig sounded awefull when recorded...way to much treble...i toyed with it for years..still the same thought it was the rocktron pre-amp...Duh!

after reading this thread i yanked it out and really tweeked with the EQ and its like getting a new whole rig...what a diffrence it made. the prophesy has very cool EQ's as well you can add bass and treble thru the speaker simulator and reverb and even more that i havent discovered yet...taylor a great sound endlessly...seems im gettin the most out of my investment now...

i aslo tryed it with the Velocity S.S power amp ..but it has no reasonance/presence controls...the BBE added that feature for me ...it sounded ...Ummm?...well it wasnt a tube amp...

but all in all My Rig sounded much better with out the BBE now....but i have a great Pre-amp / effects unit that is tweakable for days on end and a great power tube power amp....

when playing at bedroom volume the BBE did add bass and treble and some thump... but i had to boost the mids in the EQ to jam with the itunes to hear myself, but all my friends who play live thru it out years ago...they said it got lost in the mix with it...

ill keep mine it has some use sometime, maybe if the tube power amps break down...but at the moment its out of the rack...any my recordings sound much better as well as my current rig....its all in the ears...mike

[Rocklobsta1109]

The TC 1210 is an entirely different kind of piece of equipment than the sonic maximizer- and is a STELLAR quality piece. I LOVE mine!!!

 

 

My ebay quest for a 1210 has begun....

[Zachman]

 

My ebay quest for a 1210 has begun....

 

 

Here is the 1210:

 

 

 

At 1:07, I turn on the TC1210

 

http://www.netmusicians.org/files/29-rack%20tones.mp3

[Rocklobsta1109]

perfect, thank you so much. and BTW your not helping my 1210/other rack gear GAS

[petejt]

Here is the 1210 : At 1:07, I turn on the TC1210 http://www.netmusicians.org/files/29-rack%20tones.mp3

 

 

So that's you talking and playing in the clip?

 

I thought that was Patrick Watson?

[Zachman]

 

So that's you talking and playing in the clip? I thought that was Patrick Watson?

 

 

No, you're correct, that was Pat talking (to me on the phone) and playing-- He called me on the phone and I described how to dial in the presets on each of the devices, while he was doing that clip. Pat is a very good guitarist.

[petejt]

No, you're correct, that was Pat talking (to me on the phone) and playing-- He called me on the phone and I described how to dial in the presets on each of the devices, while he was doing that clip. Pat is a very good guitarist.

He's a very good guitarist indeed.



I am though waiting to hear and see you play through your rack, including all your amps and the w/d/w speakers.

[Zachman]

He's a very good guitarist indeed. I am though waiting to hear and see you play through your rack, including all your amps and the w/d/w speakers.

ya... the rig is currently in California. I am hoping to have it transported back here in short order.

[petejt]

ya... the rig is currently in California. I am hoping to have it transported back here in short order.

 

 

Still there?

 

 

But didn't you get the rack finished back in January?

[Zachman]

Still there? But didn't you get the rack finished back in January?

 

 

yup... I have a ton of gear, so am not concerned really. I've been letting Pat use it for a bit. He and I have known each other for nearly 30 years and he's my best friend. The rig is going to be relocated shortly though.