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3shiftgtr

The industry has forgotten us rack heads...

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O.k., stereo tone, flexibility, pinpoint tonal control. We know the benefits. Unless you are willing to lug around a multi rig set up, a la Eric Johnson, Racks are the way to go. BUT THE INDUSTRY HAS LEFT US BEHIND!!!:mad::mad::mad: Name more than 5 good new rack pres that have come out in the last 5 years! Go on....you can't can ya? Hell, how about the last 10!?!? Digitech and the Axe-efx...that's about it! And power amps? Nothing. Come ON!!!

 

Any of you dudes ever hit the NAMM shows? Well let's smack these dudes up! Don't let me be the only one bugging the designers at the booths, and making email inquiries! THE NEXT GREAT, AFFORDABLE, TRUE STEREO, ALL TUBE AMP AND PRE WILL RULE THE MARKET!:love::love::snax:

 

Thoughts?

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This is why nobody cares about rack stuff anymore:

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EVH

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and even in the cheap range there's the line 6 spider series and the Peavey vypyr. Why would anybody buy a whole new rack setup when they can get rack-lite from these 4+ channel amps? Rack stuff is super cool to me and I love it, but I would ditch it for a suitable 3 channel amp and effects pedals.

 

At least for now, the head and cab guys are winning.

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I think the guitar oriented rack industry is in a major shift in regards to technology. With the rising popularity of units like the Axe-Fx which really have bridged the gap between analog and digital in an amazing way any new rack oriented products face a stiff uphill marketing battle. I suspect once the dust settles a bit there will be a next generation wave of advanced tube/analog rack units, from the builders that survive that is.

 

If I were a manufacturer I would be very hesitant to invest too deeply in a new line right now, there is too much of a shift going on and it is hard to predict just where it will lead ultimately. The landscape is changing....

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Randall's modular tube rack preamp and power amp are very nice. They just don't seem to get any dedicated space in stores, so unless you're searching online or in a catalog, you might not know they exist.

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Hello? STEREO? Look, all the cool tones (well most) in rock are recorded in STEREO! STEREO....that is where big ass tone comes from...name a major modern artist with a signature tone....their live rig is STEREO!!! Or at least some of it is. Their studio thing was probablly stereo. The list is HUGE! Or it is a multi amp set up that runs more than one rig at once to get a spread...like stereo.

 

Example: a friend borrowed a Dumble ODS head from a friend at a big time studio and ran it through a cab. "Uh, I don't get it." He said. "I can't find the tone."

 

"Well, do what Robben and Larry do and run it through some efx and grab another amp and do stereo." I told him.

 

He freaked out when he did. He ran out of the Dumble to a G-major for some verb, super quick delay and a smidge of modulation, into the front end of a Fender silverface 410. The overtones with the stereo spread made the tone rich and lovely in a way no straight mono amp can!

 

And yeah, there are a few cats, Derek Trucks is just one, who run mono. And a great mono tone is still great. But what if you had 2, count em', 2 great tones at once?

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Hello? STEREO?

I've had lots of rack gear that's mono

 

Look, all the cool tones (well most) in rock are recorded in STEREO!

 

you can even use rack equipment for non rock applications!!!

 

crazeeeee ain't it

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Ummmm....because they've moved the rack fx units to the floor now?

You've got at least 20 or so multi fx floor units by everyone from Boss to Zoom, killer rack stuff by Axe, digitech, 11R, TC, G major....I could go on...but i'm moving to the next forum now...

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Ummmm....because they've moved the rack fx units to the floor now?

You've got at least 20 or so multi fx floor units by everyone from Boss to Zoom, killer rack stuff by Axe, digitech, 11R, TC, G major....I could go on...but i'm moving to the next forum now...

 

Still doesn't answer one of the primary benefits of a rack...stereo.

 

Tons of great tones, efx are all available today, all in mono.

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Hello? STEREO? Look, all the cool tones (well most) in rock are recorded in STEREO! STEREO....that is where big ass tone comes from...name a major modern artist with a signature tone....their live rig is STEREO!!! Or at least some of it is. Their studio thing was probablly stereo. The list is HUGE! Or it is a multi amp set up that runs more than one rig at once to get a spread...like stereo.


?

 

Well in the studio most guys record mono.

Then double it to thicken up the sound.

Any stereo effects are added from the board (or in todays environment, Pro Tools).

 

As for live.

Only person hearing the stereo effect is you.

A majority of the sound guys out there run a mono PA system in the clubs.

Yeah, they'll mic both your cabs.

But, it's still coming out mono through the PA cabs.

And the audience is hearing the PA mix more than the stage volume.

 

So, I think a lot of players just say

"what's the point if I'm the only one hearing it."

May as well just get a 3 or 4 channel head.

 

And since this is the way the scene is going, it would be nice to at least

see companies offer their heads in a rack mount version.

Most of the Bass amp companies do.

I don't get why the guitar amp companies don't.

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Personally I prefer the look of an amp head on a speaker cab with some pedals out front. I do have some rackmountable units but I am glad they don't overtake my rig.

 

 

 

And yes I know the virtues of a stereo sound. Which is what I use whenever I can. You don't need a rack setup to play in stereo. A stereo pedal in front of two amp heads each with their own cab, will create stereo.

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Yup... Stereo is cool in your headphones, but it's completely lost on most live audiences.

 

The industry has been moving away from rack stuff since the 90s. Since the floor FX units came out they have been all the rage for multi FX. I went that route for a while and hated it. Now I'm using a hybrid setup. Head on cabinet with rack FX.

I like the rack stuff because of all that you can do with it and the ease of setup and it makes me sad that there is a lot less of it out there than there used to be.

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Kinda weird I'm the only guy defending rack gear on the Monster Rack forum....

 

Guess players don't want stereo tone, wet/dry/wet or anything else a rack system can give you...

 

A MarkV vs. a stereo rack rig is apples and oranges to me.

 

I still feel that if a company came out with a good tube pre/power/efx in one unit, and it was in the affordable pro gear price range, AND IT WAS TRUE STEREO, it would rule the market.

 

Sad.

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Kinda weird I'm the only guy defending rack gear on the Monster Rack forum....


Guess players don't want stereo tone, wet/dry/wet or anything else a rack system can give you...


 

not at all - I lot of what I see isn't negative towards rack

 

RACK is just an enclosure spec, it doesn't sya what gizmos have to be in the box

 

it doesn't mean it has to be stereo or wet/dry/wet or any of that

 

I can get a mono spring reverb in rack

I can get a DSP based 4 channel process in a rack

I can get a network server computer in rack

I can even get an empty drawer in a rack

 

I still feel that if a company came out with a good tube pre/power/efx in one unit, and it was in the affordable pro gear price range, AND IT WAS TRUE STEREO, it would rule the market.

 

everybody's got the things they want

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Kinda weird I'm the only guy defending rack gear on the Monster Rack forum....


Guess players don't want stereo tone, wet/dry/wet or anything else a rack system can give you...


A MarkV vs. a stereo rack rig is apples and oranges to me.


I still feel that if a company came out with a good tube pre/power/efx in one unit, and it was in the affordable pro gear price range, AND IT WAS TRUE STEREO, it would rule the market.


Sad.

 

 

Once again, for most gigging musicians, stereo is useless. I used to have a stereo setup, and it was fun by myself, but once with a band, it becomes useless and you end up bringing a lot of extra gear for no benefit. The most practical setup for most gigging musicians is a small tube amp with a few pedals. One trip from the car, sounds great at club levels, and can easily be miced. If you are playing places where stereo PA's are a given, you probably have roadies so it doesn't matter if you need to bring in two of your favorite amps. So basically rack gear occupies a very narrow space in between most bands, and the lucky few where it becomes most practical. Or the studio. Which manufacturers know. It doesn't always matter if it can do more if its not practical enough to attract the masses.

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RACK is just an enclosure spec, it doesn't sya what gizmos have to be in the box


everybody's got the things they want

 

And there it is slight-return... There are no new rack tube pre's cuz no one wants one. No new tube power amps cuz no one wants one. No stereo set ups, cuz no one wants one. (I guess, according to 1/2 the posts here, stereo is a waste. I've played everything from sheds to coffee houses, country to fusion, and stereo has NEVER been a waste.)

 

Obviously the only things folks use a rack for is anymore is efx and various gizmatronic embellishments (that we all know and love), amp switching and some personal routing obscurities. You said it...Everybody has what they want.

 

The reason I feel that the industry has left us (o.k., ME) behind is that I feel that the benefits and flexibility of "the enclosure spec" are not being used by the manufacturing community to come up with anything truly unique tonally. It is all just gain stages and tone stacks.

 

I've got my own ideas on what I think would work (stated), but I guess I'm the only one. Everybody's happy. Who'da thunkit?

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Obviously the only things folks use a rack for is anymore is efx and various gizmatronic embellishments (that we all know and love), amp switching and some personal routing obscurities.

 

hell baby - people use racks for everything from tunable laser spectroscopy to in-flight storage of powerbars

 

You said it...Everybody has what they want.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding there (and, given the wording, I can dig how that can happen) - what I was meaning is everybody WANTS what they want..ie what they GOT is their desires

 

you got what you want (desires)

I got what I want (desires)

the rock band next door - they got other desires

and

people in hell want ice water, as the saying goes

 

is that I feel that the benefits and flexibility of "the enclosure spec"

 

how you figure? I mean the benefits and flexibility of the enclosure spec gets put to use in flight-storage, server farms, musical applications, non-music audio application...oh all kinds of stuff

 

are not being used by the manufacturing community to come up with anything truly unique tonally.

 

Well, unique would mean there's only one of em - kinda goes against the grain of manufacturing.

Even Unique as a model can run into problems for a manufacturer - can tend to limit the market and require a lot of user education.

 

Hey - if Unique is something you want, there's always homebrew and customhouse

you can totally buy a rack enclosure and load whatever you want - just gotta put forth the engineering to do it

 

the "tonally" part, that would have more to do with the guts than the enclosure spec

 

remember, an enclosure spec is just that - mechanical spec for the covering around the guts - you can put whatever you want in the chassis

 

 

I've got my own ideas on what I think would work (stated)

 

yup - not unlike "opinions are like assholes" as they say

 

We all have our own ideas...say hello to Mr soldering iron

 

 

 

but I guess I'm the only one.

 

not by a long shot - just you are focused on your ideas - you want (got) what you want - just like everyone else

 

want to have a really frustrating time? -- try playing an instrument that large portions of "the industry" isn't even aware exists!

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Not thinking that we are forgotten. I have everything I need in my rack. Remember the G system is new and can be split into a pedal and rack unit, we have the g major2 all the egnater and randall MTS stuff is still fresh and more is being developed for it. LIne 6 has rack PODs and Rack x2 wireless units and there's the Axe Effect.... I'm good with what we got for rack gear out there!

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We all have our own ideas...say hello to Mr soldering iron


but I guess I'm the only one.


not by a long shot - just you are focused on your ideas - you want (got) what you want - just like everyone else


want to have a really frustrating time? -- try playing an instrument that large portions of "the industry" isn't even aware exists!

 

Hey slight...I dropped riding the big buses as a sideman to make fusion discs...not sure "the industy" is aware of that either...Ha!....but I hear ya, kazoo orchestration is a limited gig. Sorry for your luck. :poke:

 

I dunno man, I guess I just see a hole in the market. I've been thru 10 different pre's, and and 4 different power amps, and 4 different efx, and integrated design is the missing link. I've even had this chat with Bruce Egnater at Summer NAMM, and he agrees. But if he read this thread he'd never waste another penny doing R&D on rack gear. Cuz, ya know, everybody is happy with what is out there and doesn't want anything new.

Am I beginning to sound like a curmudgeon?

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Hey slight...I dropped riding the big buses as a sideman to make fusion discs...not sure "the industy" is aware of that either...Ha!....but I hear ya, kazoo orchestration is a limited gig. Sorry for your luck. :poke:

 

not sure there was a baroque kazoo ;)

 

not to worry - not bad luck, just the complications of being an outlier

 

I dunno man, I guess I just see a hole in the market.

 

plenty of holes - are they big enoug, are they deep enough to warrant production?

by filling just that hole specifically are you ignoring another? (opportunity cost)

 

is there a way to get a Michigan loader in there and fill a bunch of holes at once reasonably well

 

 

I've been thru 10 different pre's, and and 4 different power amps, and 4 different efx,

 

Woof! I can't tell ya how many units I've went trough looking for stuff to fit thing I wanted to do(even all the way to the soundart chameleon) - 10-4-4 doesn't seem like a great deal to me though

 

and integrated design is the missing link.

 

In some ways, integration kills the flexibility you were talking about.

It makes it so this pre is married to those FX to that power amplifier

convenient in it's monolitic

can be inconvenient for the same reason

 

Not that it can't be done - the SWR Mo bass comes to immediate mind

and it was loved and hated for those above reasons

 

Cuz, ya know, everybody is happy with what is out there and doesn't want anything new.

 

hmm, I think that comes back to that same misunderstanding of "everybody's got what they want"

that was my fault for using imprecise language to sound more casual - as I explained in my last post I meant more

"everybody has desires"

 

problem is "everybody" is an aggregate - it's a COLLECTION of individual desires

So there is a product-design tightrope to walk - balancing the design so that it appeals to enough people to be a product with market viability vs addressing specific needs (and not alienating other users in addressing that)

 

so there is that "most of the most more of the time" sort of deal

 

now, there is the fully custom option - it reduces the market (the "everybody" for the sake of the product) to the individual.

Of course the costs are also put on tat individual

 

 

 

Am I beginning to sound like a curmudgeon?

 

The opposite actually - you sound like someone who still has hope product design isn't intractable and imperfect.

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plenty of holes - are they big enoug, are they deep enough to warrant production?

by filling just that hole specifically are you ignoring another? (opportunity cost)


hmm, I think that comes back to that same misunderstanding of "everybody's got what they want"


problem is "everybody" is an aggregate - it's a COLLECTION of individual desires

 

I gotcha about your meaning of "everybody", I was referring to the other posts. Everybody's that posted here is cool with the state of the industry, rack product wise.

 

And the holes...ah the holes. If more folks were dissatisfied, and a hole was big enough, someone would fill it, right? Or maybe, someone fills one that only one guy sees, and the people go "Listen to that! I didn't even know there was a hole there!" I mean, who knew I NEEDED a Moogerfooger? O.K., I don't. Just kidding.

 

No wait....a RACKMOUNT Moogerfooger....that would be KEWL!!!!!:lol::lol::lol:

 

My sad, desperate, and yet optimistic *chuckle* hope for this thread was for folks to talk about what they need and want in their racks that isn't out there. And IF they were dissatisfied (which they obviously are not), we could point the the Namm show floor to get some things done. For those of us able to get in to Namm, you can get face time with amp designers. I've spoken with many of them. They WANT to hear what "feet on the ground" players are thinking.

 

But alas *sigh*, it's me, my 'holes', my soldering gun, and my masters in electrical engineering....

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And the holes...ah the holes. If more folks were dissatisfied, and a hole was big enough, someone would fill it, right?

 

Depends...ROI

 

My sad, desperate, and yet optimistic *chuckle* hope for this thread was for folks to talk about what they need and want in their racks that isn't out there.

...

They WANT to hear what "feet on the ground" players are thinking.

 

Ah, this gets into research design - the thread started out wayyy too loaded.

 

One of the big problems was the question started out psuhing a specific position (subject/object separation is totally blown)

 

reread that topic post - it wasn't askin', it was tellin'

 

But alas *sigh*, it's me, my 'holes', my soldering gun, and my masters in electrical engineering....

 

Not to worry, engineering often has problems with the management side of things (target fixation and optimistic bias being a couple of the problems)

You know the drill - It's not uncommon for the dev guy to get married to pet features/designs and get oh so tense at feature strip or be evangelical (or a zealot ;) ) at design/redesign or even degrade the potential user "yeah, but they should (want/understand/use this)...they are just stupid"

 

being too close to the dev specifics can compromise all kinds of areas - QA, IP , risk/cost analysis, etc

 

it's par for that course

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Ah, this gets into research design - the thread started out wayyy too loaded.


One of the big problems was the question started out psuhing a specific position (subject/object separation is totally blown)


reread that topic post - it wasn't askin', it was tellin'


 

Yeah, you sho is right. Never thought of that.....not a good topic post for what I was trying for...loaded like you say....maybe it was late....

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