Members RHA Posted March 11, 2008 Members Share Posted March 11, 2008 Our band tends to alternate between two sound guys for live shows; both, in my estimation, provide quality work and both seem quite knowledgeable. One guy prefers to run my Yamaha p250, which I run through a Traynor K4 keyboard amp, to the house mixer via microphone--generally a 57; the other guy insists that by doing so, the full frequency range of the keyboard amp is compromised and using a DI is better. Frankly, I haven't been able to tell much difference, at least in the monitors, between these two methods. Just wondering if this is just a matter of personal preference between these two sound techs or whether the DI really does a better job at capturing the complete sound spectrum from a keyboard amp. If so, can anyone offer any info on the relative advantages/disadvantages of active v. passive DI boxes? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amarule Posted March 11, 2008 Members Share Posted March 11, 2008 If you run your keyboard in stereo to the amp, it would take 5 separate mics to capture the sound of the amp, 1 mono low, 2 mids and 2 highs. Even if you run it mono, you'd need 3 mics, low, mid and hi. Via a DI (or pair of for stereo) you would need only 2 channels max, left and right, which would yield the keyboards full range. Since it is unlikely at best the single 12" speaker is fully reproducing the lows the keyboard is generating, and in addition the sound of the amp being tailored to your liking onstage, IMHO the DI is a far better sonic solution. AFA active vs passive, in your case it really would not make that much difference. A good active may appear to sound a bit better, but a good passive will do just as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pipedwho Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 +1 on everything amarule said. I've miced a few keyboard amps / organs before, but only as a last resort. Live sound is generally pretty forgiving as a lot of details get lost in the mix / background noise. For ultra quiet venues with high dynamic range material and a great sound system (eg. recital hall situations) a DI is by far the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 From my experience, it's tough to DI a Leslie and get anything resembling what the keyboard player desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RHA Posted March 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 Thanks for the thoughtful and helpful replies. As a follow-up, if the house mix is mono, is there any benefit to running a left and right output to a stereo DI? Or would I get the same FOH sound from simply running one line out from the L/mono channel of the amp to a mono DI? Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mddittman Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 I prefer to DI everything so that we can all adjust our stage amps to the volume we need to hear without affecting the signal level to the PA. Makes for a much easier night. We initially had the problem of 'coloring' the guitarist's sound with the PA; it didn't sound like his amp. We solved that problem by looking at his guitar amp's speaker's response curve and mimicked it on his PA channel with a parametric EQ. All of a sudden it sounded just right. The PA has a MUCH more accurate representation of the true sound due to its full range than a keyboard or guitar amp does; those are what's truly 'colored.' The guitarist or keyboardist usually isn't interested in the true sound though, they want it to sound the same as it does through the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amarule Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 if the house mix is mono, is there any benefit to running a left and right output to a stereo DI? Or would I get the same FOH sound from simply running one line out from the L/mono channel of the amp to a mono DI? If you're also going mono to your amp, then no there is no advantage, however if you are going stereo to your amp, then you would only be getting 1/2 the stereo signal to the house.You'd be missing (assuming there is a stereo content to your keyboard) 1/2 the audio signal, even when combined to mono. Some keyboards are not really stereo, one out is simply phase inverted, so make sure you check that you're not defeating yourself combining the two signals to mono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 If you're also going mono to your amp, then no there is no advantage, however if you are going stereo to your amp, then you would only be getting 1/2 the stereo signal to the house.You'd be missing (assuming there is a stereo content to your keyboard) 1/2 the audio signal, even when combined to mono. Some keyboards are not really stereo, one out is simply phase inverted, so make sure you check that you're not defeating yourself combining the two signals to mono. The left/mono output on the keyboard sums the left and right signals into a true mono signal, therefore nothing is lost. Many but not all keyboards have this feature. Some allow this function to take place in software rather in the analof hardware signal path as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlatinumProd Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 Yep, in my experience, most instruments/processors with stereo outputs sum both into one mono signal if you only plug into the left/mono channel. If someone is playing a regular keyboard, I always DI it. I don't mic keyboard amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RHA Posted March 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 Great responses. Now the only remaining confusing issue for me (at least on this topic): are there any significant advantages/disadvantages running active vs. passive d.i. in my situation? I'm satisfied with all the tweaking available to me through both my onboard eq, voice edits, etc., together with the eq and effects the amp offers, so I don't need anything tweakable through the DI. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 And there's the reduction of one mike off the stage for ever so slightly less feedback potential. As to leslies, if you're going to mike it anyway, get a keyboard with a very good artificial electronic leslie. I've been playing through Leslies since 1971 and with my Roland VK-77 the difference un-miked is very small and miked non-existent. (Let alone the reduced backache and trouble moving them.) And my 40 pound Hartke kickback is as loud as my 115 pound 760 leslie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 12, 2008 Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 Passive DI is just fine, no benefit with an active Di in your application and some disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RHA Posted March 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2008 Thanks, agedhorse. Wise counsel, as per usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members outjet Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 The left/mono output on the keyboard sums the left and right signals into a true mono signal, therefore nothing is lost. This is something that has confused me for a while - how does this work? The Right channel sends the Right signal, but the Left channel sends the Left and Right? This seems like it would defeat the purpose of the Stereo mix, giving you all the right channel stuff twice... what am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 This is something that has confused me for a while - how does this work? The Right channel sends the Right signal, but the Left channel sends the Left and Right? This seems like it would defeat the purpose of the Stereo mix, giving you all the right channel stuff twice... what am I missing? On all of my boards, there is a switch on the right out jacks. When you plug into the left and not in the right, the signal is summed. When you plug into the left and the right, you get the seperate signals. If you just plug into the right out jack, usually you will just get the right signal. This is not true for all modules and Keyboards, but it is for the majority of them out there. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 As far as a Traynor K4 goes .....RTFM Thats a pretty versatile amp. One of the better Keyboard amps around. It has balanced stereo outputs on the back that are post "tube", which you can use or not. Its probably one of the easier amps to tap a signal out of. Its also stereo with summed low end going to the 12". Use the outputs and run the send from your monitor feed to channel 4. That thing even makes a great monitor in a pinch. The big advantage is that a lot of keyboard sounds are way better in stereo IMHO. I run a Yamaha MOTIF XS8 into one. My keyboard has a good share of Yamaha's PCM effects built into it. Even the "rotary speaker" emulation sounds pretty decent, when you run the outputs stereo. As far as amps go its a pretty expensive unit. Traynor (yorkville) did some decent engineering on it. It has a great feature set for the money . Ya paid for it ya might as well use them. Up close and personal it puts out a good stereo sound. I first ran into one when a guitarist borrowed one for a gig. I liked it well enough to buy one. That in itself was something because I'd never seen a keyboard amp worth half its price prior to that. Oh and at 300 bi-amped watts its ballsy as hell. IMHO Keys sound better in stereo if available. Especially organs or synths that require effects to get the sound. The left balanced output will give a mono signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DarinStevens Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 Do you always need a DI when working with keys? I have Yamaha P90 and a Nord Electro 2. Sometimes I run them directly into the board; sometimes I run them through a small Roland KC150, line out into the board to save inputs for other instruments. Sometimes I split the mono signal and send one to the board and one to my monitor. I've never mic'd them. People say the organ sounds cut through pretty well, but the piano tends to get lost. I can't tell if there's an appreciable difference in any of these configurations (too many variables to tell if it is making the difference), so I was wondering if you all could help me understand the science behind it. Does splitting the signal degrade it? Does running the keys through the amp on the way to the board help or hurt the signal? If the distance from the keys (or amp) to the board is less than 6', does it make a difference to us a DI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 Most of us here send the signal >100', so the distance is a big factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted September 13, 2009 Members Share Posted September 13, 2009 As to leslies, if you're going to mike it anyway, get a keyboard with a very good artificial electronic leslie. I've been playing through Leslies since 1971 and with my Roland VK-77 the difference un-miked is very small and miked non-existent. (Let alone the reduced backache and trouble moving them.) And my 40 pound Hartke kickback is as loud as my 115 pound 760 leslie. There is no such thing. In fact I've yet to find something even reasonably close. I'm no old school purist by any stretch of the imagination, I have a Hammond XK-3 and I hate the Leslie in it. The option that's come close is the Motion Sound stuff like the Pro-3X. It's still a rotary horn, though. Electronic Leslies? No thanks. Only if I'm playing on a postage stamp stage. To the OP: Unless you're using a tube amp or a Leslie, which then becomes an integral part of your tone, a DI is the best way to get a keyboard into the PA. Generally speaking mono is fine if that's what the FOH is, but some patches are designed with stereo seperation in mind and don't work so well in mono. Be aware of these and choose an appropriate patch and you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted September 14, 2009 Members Share Posted September 14, 2009 With that particular amp you don't need need DI's. Traynor built them into the outputs. They work fine. That amp isn't just your run of the mill keyboard amp. The engineers obviously listened to keyboard payers when they designed it. They also used their experience when figuring out the feature set they were trying to get. From a sound guys perspective it makes life a bit easier. That's always appreciated in my book. To get better you have to spend twice as much and the Traynor K4 isn't cheap. Google it and look at the thing. Its a stereo amp. The outputs give a great signal and passes anything added (tube overdrive). All he needs to do is let any competant SR guy know what the amp does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted September 14, 2009 Members Share Posted September 14, 2009 Andy, you mentioned that an active DI might have some disadvantages. Could you eplain that please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 14, 2009 Members Share Posted September 14, 2009 Andy, you mentioned that an active DI might have some disadvantages. Could you eplain that please? Often a lower input overload point, increased noise floor due to the high input impedance circuuitry and a lack of being able to get complete isolation and/or seperate AF and RFI isolation paths on the ground. You also need phantom power unless designed for battery use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted September 14, 2009 Members Share Posted September 14, 2009 Just to throw my 2 cents in... I've done both. Some keyboards have that 'artificial' sound in the samples that comes through as cheesy, IMHO. I've run this sort of keyboard through an amp, and with a gentle EQ fix, can get the 'clunk' or whatever noise is particularly annoying, can get a nicer sound, plus, there's something about air moving with a big, whirring rock organ sound, that just sounds/feels better to me, even if it is through a small combo. Ideally, I pulled one channel direct, and one through the amp, just in case. I really hate the way some people have their patches set, it may sound good at home through your little rig, but it may not translate to a large PA.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philw44 Posted September 14, 2009 Members Share Posted September 14, 2009 DI is preferable unless the amplifier is integral to the tone. I had a band who used an old 70's marshall amp to get a great gritty sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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