Will a single Yamaha 12" Club V speaker be enough ?

[mikeote]

Hi

 

Thanks for looking at my thread.

 

The situation:

 

5X3 meter room with most of the walls covered with 60KG dense 100mm thick mineral wool absorbers / bass traps covered with acoustically transparent fabric.

 

Drums playing medium drum volume (i'm not a hihat smashing cymbal breaker) + guitar & bass, to get an idea of volume, closest musical style is like dream theater, so loud, but not excessive.

 

I need the speaker/s to reproduce vocals + keyboard clearly and powerfully.

 

Will a single Yamaha 12" Club V speaker be enough for the situation above?

 

Thanks

Mike

[Gary in NJ]

If you can mount the club high in one corner of the room, and have the singer in the opposite corner, facing the speaker it should be fine. That is really a small room (but you already know that) so I wouldn't want to flood it with too much amplified volume.

 

Hit 'em light.

[mitsu13gman]

As a floor monitor for the singer/keyboard player, I'd say you'll be fine.

 

 

If you are expecting this to be heard by all members of the band equally, then from my limited experience I think you'll have trouble, for a couple of reasons.

 

Depending on your guitar player's rig, it's always going to be beaming at somebody, so for someone the guitar will be too loud, for others it will be too quiet. Combine that with the fact that with only one PA speaker you will have to aim it at someone. Now the vocals and keyboards will be too loud for one person, and that may or may not be the person for whom the guitars are too quiet.

 

One other concern I have, and need the more experienced members here to chime in on, is the peak-to-average ratio of the typical keyboard "pad" as used in prog metal. My experiences lead me to believe that for sustained pad sounds, this is effectively zero. If that's the case, then while you can get away with a 400W amp on a 400W "program" (200W RMS) speaker with vocals, the same setup with a keyboard pad will blow the driver up in short order.

 

But I really would like to hear from the more learned folks around here to back that up.

 

 

Mike

[agedhorse]

Sounds reasonable IMO.

[Craig Vecchione]

I am a tiny bit confused by this thread, which appears to be an update of the "extreme conditions" thread where the OP stated the drums and music would be really loud. I'm assuming he's planning to make a conscious effort drum more softly.

 

The single speaker could and should work just fine, if my assumption is accurate. If the band gets loud, no amount of PA volume will keep things from becoming muddled. Small rooms are difficult, tiny rooms are nearly impossible. The sound dampening will help a lot. Good luck!

[mikeote]

Thanks again for your replies guys.

 

I think I gave the wrong impression in the first thread, I ever intended to drum louder than is necessary, just was not intending to dampen the sound much, which in a 5X3 meter room and a whole band playing metal would be quite extreme, especially as one of the walls is a giant mirror.

 

I'm making 24 sound absorbers now out of 1200X600X75MM 60KG dense mineral wool, wood frames + 6mm open cell foam to cover.

 

I've done a rough floor plan of the rehearsal, the idea is for each member to hear his own instrument the most, so the spl can be kept to a minimum.

 

Check out the floor plan and let me know what you think:

 

http://www.discountdrumgear.co.uk/floor-plan.JPG

 

I've got the Yamaha S112V Speaker now, got it new for

[Craig Vecchione]

The singer's speaker is a concern. If it's behind him and the mic and speaker face each other, it will be impossible to get the level up to what you need without feedback. You might have better luck placing it behind the drummer's (your) head, so it's facing the back of the singer's mic, and a decent distance from it. This would increase gain before feedback, the keyboardist can probably still hear it well enough, you can definitely hear it over the drums, and the bass and guitarist probably don't listen to the vocals anyway....j/k....the room's small enough everyone should hear fine.

[mikeote]

Good point Craigv, i'll put the speaker above the kit. That will have the added bonus of having the singer on the couch, was thinking of how I was gonna keep every one sitting on their wooden chairs when there's a couch.

 

Any thoughts on a power amp / 30 band eq ? I mostly want to avoid the crap ones and get a little decent one, the speaker is 400W program handling/800W peak

 

Cheers !

[mikeote]

Updated floor plan:

 

http://www.discountdrumgear.co.uk/floor-plan2.JPG

 

Moved the bass player a bit as well.

[Craig Vecchione]

A QSC RMX1450 would be a very good match, I see lots of Clubs powered with them. dbx, Peavey, DOD (a Harman sub of dbx) all have good EQ's.

[mikeote]

That's a pretty expensive power amp

[agedhorse]

That's a pretty expensive power amp

[mikeote]

I don't get it, Is this right ?

 

With a good power amp you pay for:

 

Amount of power it can supply

Good build quality

 

Is that it ?

 

There plenty of

[agedhorse]

Well then, I'm sure a cheap power amp is a PERFECT match for your needs then eh?

 

Reliability is important, regardless of the application, but we're still not talking about "fantastic" build quality etc. We're talking about acceptable build quality.

 

When the cheap, piec of crap amp fails and takes your speaker with it, you will see what a great bargain it really was my friend.

[Craig Vecchione]

That's a pretty expensive power amp

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I don't get it, Is this right ?   With a good power amp you pay for:   Amount of power it can supply Good build quality   Is that it ?   There plenty of

[Craig Vecchione]

This thread on the same page for the last few days is a good lesson in what works and what doesn't:

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1931898

[mikeote]

Haha, I read that thread Donkeygrl thread, funny stuff, poor girl, she should have bugged the hell out of the experianced guys before she bought her Peavery SP4.

 

So, cheap amps don't work because they blow up and may take your speakers with them.

 

Or they will not produce the power claimed consistently, resulting in occasional clipping, and I assume random volume changes.

 

Earlier today on ebay a second hand Peavey CS800 800Watt power amp went for

[agedhorse]

Those are 200 watt "RMS" speakers, good match for CS800. Use with DDT limiter on.

[mikeote]

I'm still looking for a suitable amp, i'll list the possbilities which are not the brand names you've mentioned (QSC, Yamaha, Peavey, Mackie, Crown, Crest), as I can assume they are ok if I can find one in my budget(around

[mikeote]

My S112V speaker is a 200 watt RMS speakers ?

 

It said it was a 400watt speaker on the ebay add, than I found it said 350 watt on the yamaha site.

 

Please tell me what a rms speaker is.

 

Cheers

Mike

[mikeote]

Is Alesis a decent power amp maker ?

[agedhorse]

 

My S112V speaker is a 200 watt RMS speakers ? It said it was a 400watt speaker on the ebay add, than I found it said 350 watt on the yamaha site. Please tell me what a rms speaker is. Cheers Mike

 

 

Yes, in my book it's a 200 watt RMS speaker.

 

The "RMS" rating is the power rating that a speaker can handle safely, generally a thermal limit but these days with improved adhesives and materials the thermal and LONG TERM mechanical limitations are getting pretty close. While it used to be common practice to power a speaker around 2x the RMS rating (that's where the "program" rating came from, I have found that powering closer to the RMS rating or as much as 1.5x the RMS rating to be a better match for all but the most experienced, skilled users. This is based on years of doing warranty service and reconing of pro speaker products.

[Craig Vecchione]

The Peavey CS800 is almost a legend of durability. If you can find one at the price you mentioned, it's a good deal. Probably outlive all of us.

[mikeote]

Thanks againf ro your advice AgedHorse and CraigV

 

So i've decided to get a 200-300 watt per side high quality power amp.

 

These are the ones I've got my eye on are:

Crown Amcron Micro Tech 1200 Power Amplifier

CROWN CE1000 225 watt pwer side 8 at Ohms

Crown Powerbase 2 230Watt per channel at 8 O

QSC PLX1602 300 watt per side at 8 O

Peavey PV 1.3K 325 watt per side in 8 O

 

 

Why on earth do Yamaha state their speakers are "400Watts program with transient highs of 800Watts" when to be able to use the transient highs of 800 watts you have to use it with a 800 watts amp which will kit it ?

 

I've read that good power amps have headroom above their stated wattage, is Yamaha saying use a 400watt amp which has headroom of 800 watts ?

 

I assume headroom cannot blow my speaker ? If I accidentally request too much from the power amp ?

 

Is it like this?:

 

Good Amps have headroom, which is wattage available above the stated amount, though you shouldn't be constantly using this headroom, or the amp will burn.

 

Good speakers have transient highs (speaker headroom?)

 

You should get an amp with the same availabe headroom as the speaker, otherwise your amps head room may blow your speaker.

 

Cheers !

Mike