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two mics one mono cab?


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The only real way to tell would be to

 

Set a level on Mic A

Get a similar level for Mic B

Get the guitarist to play

Keep Mic A in a set position

Have somebody move Mic B backwards and forwards.

 

They will be in phase when the combined signal sounds fullest.

 

That's how i do it in a studio, no idea how noticeable it will be in a live environment and would only contemplate doing it if the two speakers in the cab were very differently voiced.

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yes this is for live. I saw a guitarist back in the 90's do it and it really fattened up the sound. The sound man was demonstrating it to me, you know one mic and then two mics out of phase and then with the phse switched. it made a huge difference in the fattness of the guitar sound. I use sm57;s exclusively on my guitars. I thought I read somewhere that you could rewire a mic cable to be out of phase with a normal one and that would work. any thoughts on that?

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yes this is for live. I saw a guitarist back in the 90's do it and it really fattened up the sound. The sound man was demonstrating it to me, you know one mic and then two mics out of phase and then with the phse switched. it made a huge difference in the fattness of the guitar sound. I use sm57;s exclusively on my guitars. I thought I read somewhere that you could rewire a mic cable to be out of phase with a normal one and that would work. any thoughts on that?

 

 

Are you sure that a single mic alone, without the second mic interfering, wouldn't have sounded just as fat at the same volume level?

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yes this is for live. I saw a guitarist back in the 90's do it and it really fattened up the sound. The sound man was demonstrating it to me, you know one mic and then two mics out of phase and then with the phse switched. it made a huge difference in the fattness of the guitar sound. I use sm57;s exclusively on my guitars. I thought I read somewhere that you could rewire a mic cable to be out of phase with a normal one and that would work. any thoughts on that?

 

 

I agree that it must have fattened up the sound. however, you missed the point of the demo.

 

What he was showing you is that with 2 mics, you have to be carefull of phase, because if you have one "out of phase" it will cancel with the other one. taking you output to zero (or near it).

 

The "tone" of teh fatt sound comes from the fact that this cancellation is not 100%, but the lower you go the "better" it cancels. SO when you have them out of phase the highes are only partially affected, where as the lows are almost completely affected. Out of phase sounds thin because you are useing the second mic to cancel all of the sound from the first. then you put it in phase and it adds, making it sound good again.

 

Now, you are about to say it sounds better with 2 then with 1. Again I agree - but there is a more reasonable way to do this. With 2 mics - in phase, you still get small areas; mostly in the highs, that cancel and get reduced in level. However the lows (like before) will add up quite well. - you get a predicable boost in the bas, some boost in the mids, and little boost, and some distortion in the highs.

 

To a untrained ear, it sounds "better" because 1) Its louder, and 2) has more bottom end.

 

The eaiser way to accomlish this however is not with a second mic, rather, just turn up the low end, and turn up the fader.

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yeah you may be right. He may have been showing me the dif between in and out of phase. thanks My rig:1975 jmp 50 marshall and a 1960 straight cab with 30 watt celestions sounds great but you know it can never be right:)thanks again.

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What you can do instead is run the guitar channel through a VERY SLIGHT delay. Pan the dry guitar about 40% left and the delayed guitar about 40% right. Sounds huge.

 

Remember, VERY SLIGHT DELAY. and DO NOT run the delayed guitar through the monitors (if applicable).

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Mogwix - I don't quite "get it". Are you talking about 2 mics w/ one delayed? Or some other method?

Thanks

 

 

Yes, that's what he's saying. Run 2 mics. One as normal dry guitar. Then run the other through a delay unit into another channel. The delay has to be slight and very short but can fatten things up quite a bit.

 

I use a Rocktron preamp in my guitar rig. I was able to fatten up the tone by running a slight pitch shift on it. Basically made it a 50/50 mix between wet & dry signal. The set the pitch shift to 0 shift, then detuned by 10 cents. Fateened it up nicely.

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Mogwix - I don't quite "get it". Are you talking about 2 mics w/ one delayed? Or some other method?

Thanks

It doesn't have to be 2 mics.

 

  • Hook a delay unit up to an effects send on the mixer, and run the output to a channel on the board (probably the channel adjacent to the guitar mic channel).

  • On the guitar mic channel, turn the effects send knob until you get a good signal at the delay unit. Pan the mic channel slightly left (or right).

  • Hit the PFL on the delay return channel and adjust the gain until you get a good signal at the channel. Pan this channel opposite (but equal) to the mic channel, and bring up the level to match the mic.

That's one way of mixing it, if you're running a stereo rig. On a mono rig, don't mind panning, just mix the dry and delayed signal to taste. The effect is much better in stereo, but it works fine in mono too. If you're mixing in mono... grab the delay time knob and turn it clockwise and then counterclickwise and then clockwise again... whoa, a flanger!

 

Delays are very useful. Aside from their (usually) intended use of time-aligning delay stacks to the mains, there's clever tricks you can do while mixing. For vocals, patch a compressor into the channel and compress them at 2:1 with a mid attack and slow release. Adjust threshold until you're cutting ~3-6dB at peaks (depends on singer). Now follow steps 1-3 I outlined for the vocal channel. Silky smooth vocals that sit on top of the mix... mmmm...

 

If a band is pissing you off... run the snare drum through a delay (a few ms) and send the delayed snare through the monitors... watch as the band struggles to keep time with the slightly-out-of-time snare... when they stop to figure out what the sound is... hit the bypass on the delay. When they play again, flip the bypass and lol at their confusion. :D I'm such a delightful little scamp.

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greetings

 

I quite often dual mic guitars, especially if the band in question only has one guitar player..... then I pan the 2 separate mics Usually go for a sm57 and an e609, the distance between them if they are both on the grill of the cab is very small (bearing in mind 1ms is a foot at 1k) the difference of a millimetre is only going to introduce comb filtering in the very highest of frequency. so I wouldn't worry about phase too much.

 

Polarity however I would worry about. I try to mic the same driver so that any driver issues in the cab don't effect my signal. It has been known for one driver in a guitar cab to have been replaced and it is polarity reversed compared to the others and when you mic up a good driver and the reversed driver you get a cancellation when both signals are turned up. Same goes for if he is using stereo cabs, check your polarity with both panned centre. This is where you need the "polarity button" on your console if you don't have one I would suggest making up a small XLR to XLR with pins 2 and 3 crossed this will allow you to correct it if this happens just put it on one of the mic lines and your problem will be solved.

 

try it! see if you like it.

 

I love the dual mic'ing for metal/heavy rock bands I have a pair of Audio Technica AE2500s for guitars, they are dual element mics. it contains both a condencer and a dynamic in the same shell.

 

Kim Watson

----------------

www.polarisaudio.co.uk

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What you can do instead is run the guitar channel through a VERY SLIGHT delay. Pan the dry guitar about 40% left and the delayed guitar about 40% right. Sounds huge.


Remember, VERY SLIGHT DELAY. and DO NOT run the delayed guitar through the monitors (if applicable).

 

 

VERY SLIGHT DELAY - Are we talking about the "27ms" delay? I don't remember where I got this figure from, but it was recommend for use in the studio to fatten things up (snare drum?). I do seem to recall that this delay time might be just around the threshold where it becomes audible/noticeable

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VERY SLIGHT DELAY - Are we talking about the "27ms" delay?

 

I don't recall the numbers really, I just adjust the delay time to taste. It's not exactly noticeable if you listen to it, but makes a difference when you compare the dry and mixed signals.

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We have dual mic guitars for live stuff with SM57 or e906 along with a Large Condensor (AT4040).

 

Now we don't do this with rock bands or loud stage volumes as it'll cause a mess. But we do this with the Country and Blues bands.

 

The only time we mic a guitar twice for a rock band is if they have stereo guitar happening, but then we use a pair of the same mics and Pan them about 60-70% on that side.

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