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Mixing an e-kit?


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I'm having problems mixing a e-kit (Roland TD-20) in a room. Problem I'm having is the drums are way to boomy and it mucks up the mix some what. I suggested to the drummer maybe turn down the room ambience's on his kit, but it sounds like it's not enough and I don't think he wants to play on a dry kit. Any suggestions to compensate floor toms and kick that are real boomy :confused:

 

I'm cutting the lows pretty steep on the channel strip eq section :idea: it's helps some what, but when I turn up the mains for desired SPL that's when it gets real boomy and I have to lower the drums down to keep the boom boom effect out, which causes the rest of the instruments to be way louder. FWIW the drummer told me he never had to make any type of adjust when he played in California he just plugged in in played.

Here's what I'm using

 

2-EV SXA 360's over 2 Yorkville LS700p's along with a Rane dual 15 band eq and DOD 835 active x-over set to 100 hz mixed thru a Peavey 2314 RQ mixer for FOH.

 

Just maybe wondering for those of you folks that have a drummer that uses a Roland V drum kit for playing out live. Abzurd I know you guys do, maybe your drummer can give my drummer some suggestions on some drum settings for live PA applications.

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Just maybe wondering for those of you folks that have a drummer that uses a Roland V drum kit for playing out live. Abzurd I know you guys do, maybe your drummer can give my drummer some suggestions on some drum settings for live PA applications.

 

 

It's a "system" problem. You need to balance it to your system. Someone else's numbers might actually give you more problem.

 

Why not have your drummer create a set of presets that he dialed in while playing through the system you are using. I doubt he like the runaway boom either.

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is your drummer using his own custom created kits? I use the vexpressions kits and tweak them just a little for personal taste when I play live and have no issues.

 

Does he use headphones to create kits? This could be part of it.

 

We live in the same town, I would be willing to come listen to the kit sometime and see if I see anything in the module set up if you want.

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is your drummer using his own custom created kits? I use the vexpressions kits and tweak them just a little for personal taste when I play live and have no issues.


Does he use headphones to create kits? This could be part of it.


We live in the same town, I would be willing to come listen to the kit sometime and see if I see anything in the module set up if you want.

 

 

Yea he's got 1 custom made kit and no he doesn't have the vex pack. I know the problem is the floor toms and kick has to much room effects because Roland over compresses the {censored} out of their samples and add a ton of room ambience's not that it's a bad type of thing for bedroom's and small PA rigs.

 

Not so good if you have more space then your average bedroom size and subs that can dish out some major SPL to fill the room up real fast like.

 

 

It would be nice for him maybe to see your kit in action and maybe suggest turning down the room ambience effect on the floor toms and kick. I know the kick he uses is the 26" shell so that's like a cannon boom going off esp. with a lot of ambient effect on it same with the floor toms. Gimme a PM so we can hook up thanks.

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It's a "system" problem. You need to balance it to your system. Someone else's numbers might actually give you more problem.


Why not have your drummer create a set of presets that he dialed in while playing through the system you are using. I doubt he like the runaway boom either.

 

 

You make that sound like it the gear type of problem Come Don I just upgraded the mid/high tops from NX35's that couldn't keep up with the

LS700p's I know how to balance the system I had to push the NX35's pretty hard in a few places so they could hold up. the Ev's don't have this problem. The problem is. I think the drummer isn't turning down the effects enough and using the wrong kit. I completely understand your suggestion of tune the drums to the room. Just our drummer likes the kit he made and from what he hears and what I hear are two total opposite things he hears cannons I hear muck. Just we both have different opinions on the way they should sound. I'm trying to work with him so he doesn't have to alter his kit to much.

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I don't think you understood Don's comment.

 

If the drummer's processing is tailored towards what he likes with one sound system, room and maybe using headphones but you are listening to what he is doing through a different PA with a very different configuration, perhaps his eq and fx conflict with you are using compared with what he is using.

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I don't think you understood Don's comment.


If the drummer's processing is tailored towards what he likes with one sound system, room and maybe using headphones but you are listening to what he is doing through a different PA with a very different configuration, perhaps his eq and fx conflict with you are using compared with what he is using.

 

 

Gottcha

 

No headphones he's monitoring thur my NX750P pre-fade so I see what Don's saying. He only hears what coming out of the monitor mix which is rung out for offending FB since he uses a vocal mic in close proximity. However, I will let him go out into the listening zone of the FOH mix and he likes what I have mixed, but I don't IMO his tom's and kick muddy up mix up some what, and it could be way better if he would alter the kit some what, mainly use less ambience. Just figured I would ask e-drummers here if they run across the same type of problems from time to time and how they deal with their settings. Thanks for the clarification on Don's post.

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2 thoughts

 

Try lowering the crossover to 85-90Hz. I know this sounds low for that sub, but the LS700P puts out a tremendous amount at 100Hz - 150Hz and I've found lowering the crossover tightens it up considerably. Remember, the crossover isn't stopping everything under 100Hz. Trust me, a good bit still comes through when the sub is crossed over lower. It may not be the entire problem, but it should tighten things up.

 

 

The second piece of advice likely won't be taken, because you're kind of eluding that the drummer is more interested in what things sound like to him than the people he's playing for. That said, take the floor and kick sounds and run through other samples as you play at gig levels. You'll find some sound better in the PA than others. This is also a way to get small subs to sound bigger and tighter. You simply use the kick patch that works best with the system.

If you get to where the floor tom is the only problem, simply cut it way back in the mix and tell him you'll put it back in when he can get something that doesn't sound like ass through the PA, until then, his tom solos will look great, but won't sound like much!

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We use a TD-8, which doesn't let you use ambiance if using the 4 discrete outputs. The TD-20 is a much more advanced unit. I'll add some plate verb to pretty much all 4 outputs, seasoned to taste for the room. I'd recommend that. The ambiance of most of those kits is just too thick for live work.

 

Again, it comes down to if the guy really cares about what it sounds like out front. I've heard TD-20 kits sound like fake crap-o-la, meanwhile our TD-8 sounds about as real as you can get with an e-drum setup and has all the advantages of not dealing with "real drums". To us it's not even close, the pros outweigh the cons.

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Does he use the stereo outs or the separate 8 outs? My drummer wont use any "ambience" on the kits because that really messes up the sound. The Vex kits sound great without adding the reverb at the source.

 

 

Stereo out. I'm gonna down load the manual and read up on it and see if I can split the signal using the 8 direct outs. Just not sure how to go about it yet.

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You just assign a trigger to the outs. It made a huge difference in our setup. I give the drums 8 ins on the board and have EQ and level control for everything. We do the simple kick, snare, hi rack, lo rack, hi hat, ride crash 1 & crash 2 setup. Works great but when the drummer adds the ambience, it doe muddy things up a lot.

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Stereo out. I'm gonna down load the manual and read up on it and see if I can split the signal using the 8 direct outs. Just not sure how to go about it yet.

 

 

It would indeed be helpful to have control over EQ and volume of each channel. really, without that you don't have much chance of the drums sounding good. A "blanket EQ" over the entire kit just isn't enough. Taking the boom out of the toms, for example, may cut the body of the snare drum too much.

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You just assign a trigger to the outs. It made a huge difference in our setup. I give the drums 8 ins on the board and have EQ and level control for everything. We do the simple kick, snare, hi rack, lo rack, hi hat, ride crash 1 & crash 2 setup. Works great but when the drummer adds the ambience, it doe muddy things up a lot.

 

3 problems I have with this.

 

First, I need a bigger mixer because my Peavey RQ2314 has 14 channels and 2 of them are stereo channel which you can assigns as mono channels if need be, and we're using 9 channels.

 

Second I tried the direct out yesterday and they sounded exactly the same as the stereo out, I'm assuming he has them assign exactly the same as the stereo out. :confused: I couldn't tell the difference.

 

Third He doesn't want a dry kit in his monitor. As Abzurd put it, he's so used to how he likes his drums to sound like and is not to concern about how it sits in the over all mix in certain clubs and different rooms.

 

As I posted earlier when we let the opening band set in he was really happy with the drum sound, but I wasn't and neither were both guitarist. Me and both guitarist agreed that the drums sound he is using is causing the mix to be some what muddy. I also agree with Abzurd about the over all eq-ing approach, it may clean up the kick and toms, but will cause other area of the kit to sound out of whack.

 

I just need to sit down and have a band meeting and convince our drummer sometimes your favorite kit setting ain't working. I think the biggest problem is just the kits have way to much room effect and my LS700P's can fill up the room pretty quick which is causing the boom effect. The consensus I've gather here and a few other places is use a semi dry kit. Convinencing our drummer is gonna be the hardest fix of them all.

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Yea he's got 1 custom made kit and no he doesn't have the vex pack. I know the problem is the floor toms and kick has to much room effects because Roland over compresses the {censored} out of their samples and add a ton of room ambience's not that it's a bad type of thing for bedroom's and small PA rigs.

 

 

Roland doesn't use "samples." They use computer modeling techniques which is why their e-drums are the audible equivalanet of the smell of rotten crotch. Simply stated, they sound like {censored}. They're great for modern pop music where much of it is overproduced and many (not all) of the artists are pretty boys or girls who can entertain but can't really sing. For most other music, they suck.

 

DDrum and 2Box use real samples which is why DDrum blew everyone else away back in the late 80's to late 90's and why 2Box will hopefully save the rest of the world from the {censored} e-drum sounds Roland has out on the market. I believe some Yamaha and Alesis sounds are real samples and that's probably why some of their kits sound okay, but most are computer generated.

 

I used DDrum gear for 10 years or so before switching back to acoustic gear. I miss the e-drums. I wore them out and looked at Roland and just about puked when I heard them and saw the price.

 

One thing I learned very early when I started using e-drums is the less effects, the better. And that pretty much is the case with anything. Tell your drummer to make everything dry and see what that does. The effects on the drums can't be drastically different than the rest of the band. If they are, the band will never sound like a cohesive unit.

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Third He doesn't want a dry kit in his monitor. As Abzurd put it, he's so used to how he likes his drums to sound like and is not to concern about how it sits in the over all mix in certain clubs and different rooms.

 

 

Then it's time to fire your drummer. He sounds like a pain-in-the-ass who has absoluty no concept of what it means to play in a band.

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DDrum and 2Box use real samples which is why DDrum blew everyone else away back in the late 80's to late 90's and why 2Box will hopefully save the rest of the world from the {censored} e-drum sounds Roland has out on the market.

 

 

...if they ever release the {censored} on this side of the water, that is. Shipments are slow everywhere but they have NO distribution here yet. I wanted to jump on one by the end of the year for a project starting next year, but now I'm hearing rumors that it won't be until the end of Q1 2010 until I can find a place to buy them, and probably longer since they'll be sold out quick.

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...if they ever release the {censored} on this side of the water, that is. Shipments are slow everywhere but they have NO distribution here yet. I wanted to jump on one by the end of the year for a project starting next year, but now I'm hearing rumors that it won't be until the end of Q1 2010 until I can find a place to buy them, and probably longer since they'll be sold out quick.

 

 

It'll be released here eventually. I wouldn't want to first release anyway. I've read a few reviews on European websites and most folks love them but a couple report some glitches with the e-cymbals (which I'm not sure I'd even use). There's supposed to be a firmware update coming out soon along with some other color options.

 

I don't recall what it was, but 2Box posted something on their webiste a while back about a revision to the module which would come out about 6 to 9 months after the release of the first module. There was was something clearly better with the second module but I can't think of what it was right now...

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Roland doesn't use "samples." They use computer modeling techniques which is why their e-drums are the audible equivalanet of the smell of rotten crotch. Simply stated, they sound like {censored}. They're great for modern pop music where much of it is overproduced and many of the artist are pretty boys or girls who can't really sing, but for most other music, they suck.


DDrum and 2Box use real samples which is why DDrum blew everyone else away back in the late 80's to late 90's and why 2Box will hopefully save the rest of the world from the {censored} e-drum sounds Roland has out on the market. I believe
some
Yamaha and Alesis sounds are real samples and that's probably why some of their kits sound okay, but most are computer generated.


I used DDrum gear for 10 years or so before switching back to acoustic gear. I miss the e-drums. I wore them out and looked at Roland and just about puked when I heard them and saw the price.


One thing I learned very early when I started using e-drums is the less effects, the better. And that pretty much is the case with anything. Tell your drummer to make everything dry and see what that does. The effects on the drums can't be drastically different than the rest of the band. If they are, the band will never sound like a cohesive unit.

 

 

I concur about the Roland computer generated samples it's why I went out and bought a VST module Superior Drummer 2.0 W/SDX packs for my tiny TD-6 kit because I hated how they sounded in my project home studio demo's. I highly doubt I'll be dragging my laptop with the VST module because of stability issues of my PC and windows and the fact that your tethered by a umbilical cord and I'm mixing from the stage. I seen the video clips of 2box and I must say their drums blow away the Roland TD kits. Problem is they haven't release them here in the states yet, not that I'm aware of. I would love to have the 2box because you can down load your VST samples into the module unlike Roland and have a huge library of samples. Sure Roland has a library of crappy effects stuff I would never use doing pop metal and classic rock.

 

I think the main problem is our drummer doesn't want to compromise his kit setting at the cost of the FOH mix. After 2 years I always trusted our x singer for FOH mix then after hearing them at our last gig with another drummer sitting in. I was very disappointed because I realized that our x singer was a clueless on what a good mix sounds like. Like I said earlier the hardest fix will be the drummer himself. He's older feller sit in his ways about how he wants the drums to sound to his ears and not any body else. At best all I can do is suggest hey try a dry kit and then hear the difference out front with the whole band playing if he goes for it way cool if not then I know he's thinking as a a solo artist and not thinking as a group.

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3 problems I have with this.


First, I need a bigger mixer because my Peavey RQ2314 has 14 channels and 2 of them are stereo channel which you can assigns as mono channels if need be, and we're using 9 channels.


Second I tried the direct out yesterday and they sounded exactly the same as the stereo out, I'm assuming he has them assign exactly the same as the stereo out.
:confused:
I couldn't tell the difference.


Third He doesn't want a dry kit in his monitor. As Abzurd put it, he's so used to how he likes his drums to sound like and is not to concern about how it sits in the over all mix in certain clubs and different rooms.


As I posted earlier when we let the opening band set in he was really happy with the drum sound, but I wasn't and neither were both guitarist. Me and both guitarist agreed that the drums sound he is using is causing the mix to be some what muddy. I also agree with Abzurd about the over all eq-ing approach, it may clean up the kick and toms, but will cause other area of the kit to sound out of whack.


I just need to sit down and have a band meeting and convince our drummer sometimes your favorite kit setting ain't working. I think the biggest problem is just the kits have way to much room effect and my LS700P's can fill up the room pretty quick which is causing the boom effect. The consensus I've gather here and a few other places is use a semi dry kit. Convinencing our drummer is gonna be the hardest fix of them all.

 

You can send the stereo outs with FX to the monitor and keep a clean signal to FOH. It would require up to 8 channels but you can also use a combination. For example, assign direct out 1 to the kick, direct out 2 to the snare and use direct out 3 for toms and direct out 4 for cymbals. There are many options that will work better then stereo.

 

He does have to assign the outs. It is possible that the direct outs are currently setup the exact same as the stereo outs.

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While I agree with the horrible sound quality of most TD kits, the TD-20 is world's better then anything else out there today. I would never use anything but the TD-20 for serious work. I doubt if many people here would be able to tell the TD-20 (properly set up with better quality third party kits) from an actual kit. I do not really like any of the TD stock kits. The TD-20 kits are best by far but I still would only use a few pieces of the stock kits live. The Expression kits blow the stock kits away.

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