Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Ok. I have a question that I think is best suited for this forum. I will try and make it as simple as possible. I have an acoustic Guitar (A Gibson J-45) with an LR Baggs Element pickup. I have an LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI Box that can either use a battery or Phantom Power. I plug my acoustic into the DI and then from the DI directly into the mixer with 2 1/4" cables. The DI is powered by a 9V battery when used like this. (my acoustic pick-up is also a 9V battery) When I plug my acoustic into the DI (1/4" cable) and take the battery out and then run an XLR from the DI to the Mixer in an attempt to use the Phantom Power, my guitar acoustic become very distorted and I can't seem to figure out a way to fix it. It's done that on two different mixers. I must be doing something wrong...or not doing something. Now you can make me feel stupid...thanks in advance for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Ok. I have a question that I think is best suited for this forum. I will try and make it as simple as possible. I have an acoustic Guitar (A Gibson J-45) with an LR Baggs Element pickup.I have an LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI Box that can either use a battery or Phantom Power. I plug my acoustic into the DI and then from the DI directly into the mixer with 2 1/4" cables. The DI is powered by a 9V battery when used like this. (my acoustic pick-up is also a 9V battery)When I plug my acoustic into the DI (1/4" cable) and take the battery out and then run an XLR from the DI to the Mixer in an attempt to use the Phantom Power, my guitar acoustic become very distorted and I can't seem to figure out a way to fix it. It's done that on two different mixers. I must be doing something wrong...or not doing something. Now you can make me feel stupid...thanks in advance for your help. What mixers are you using? Have you tried swapping out the XLR cable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Our rehearsal mixer is a Mackie 808S (powered mixer). We use a MixWiz for our live shows. It happened with the Mackie 808s. I did not try switching the mic cables, but i know it works, I used for my mic this weekend (on a different PA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 First guess is that it's one of the mixers out there that provide +15v on phantom, and the DI requires more juice. What's the mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Should you be using phantom power/active D.I. with an active pick-up? Are you getting way too much gain? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Have you tried turning down the gain when using XLR? You may just be over driving and if you don't adjust the signal it will come out distorted. Question though, why use the DI at all if you are going to send unbalanced 1/4" connection to the mixer. The purpose of the DI is to take the 1/4" unbalanced signal and convert it to XLR balanced signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Our rehearsal mixer is a Mackie 808S (powered mixer). We use a MixWiz for our live shows. It happened with the Mackie 808s. I did not try switching the mic cables, but i know it works, I used for my mic this weekend (on a different PA). There you go... The Mackie is +15v. The DI requires 48v. You'll need to use a battery with that mixer. The Mixwiz provides +48v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Some active DIs need the battery in place even though powered by the mixer's phantom power. Test all 3 wires on the mic cable for continuity. Why bother using a DI when you used an unbalanced cable from the DI to the mixer? I've found, when using an active pickup on a guitar, it's better to use a passive DI and use an active DI for the passive pickups. It's entirely possible that when you are feeding the active DI connected to the mixer with a (tested) mic cable, you are overdriving the DI's input with the active pickup. You likely need to turn down the feed from the guitar or use the PAD feature on the DI. Also the feed into the mixer is at least 6dB stronger with the balanced signal. edit: forgot about some mixers providing inadaquate voltage levels of Phantom Power ;>( Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Hmmm...Thanks for the opinions. This is very interesting. A guy thought I was crazy for NOT using a DI box. He told me my guitar should never work on a mixer without a DI box???? He was a freakin' Guitar Luthier, so I figured he was right??? So I got one. I have always plugged 1/4" cable directly into our board with no problems (on the Mackie or the MixWiz). (to be specific...I run a cable from the guitar to a Boss tuner and then an 1/4" out to the board) However, when we play venues that have a "sound guy", then we are going through the venues system and my acoustic always plays through a DI box. (presumably because of the distance from instrument to board). So it could be the mixer? interesting. I think I messed with the gain on the mixer, but I may try that again. But I am pretty sure it still distorted at very low gain. As far as me sending a balanced signal and an unbalanced signal...I get really lost with that stuff and don't quite get it. I knew the DI was converting something from something to make it something, but I wasn't quite sure, I was just told "you need a DI box." I just play guitar and am a dumb*** when it comes to this sound stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 There you go...The Mackie is +15v. The DI requires 48v. You'll need to use a battery with that mixer. The Mixwiz provides +48v ahh. I see. So in theory, it would work on my MixWiz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 ahh. I see. So in theory, it would work on my MixWiz? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 It's done that on two different mixers. What did you mean by that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 I just play guitar and am a dumb*** when it comes to this sound stuff. But you want to learn, and coming here was a good step. My comment was simply that if you use the DI then you should send a balanced XLR signal to the board. If you plan to go to the board with unbalanced 1/4 inch (which is fine if it works for you) then go ahead and eliminate the DI, otherwise the DI becomes one more potential failure point. If you are overdriving at low gain on the board, then the problem is either with the DI, or with your guitar sending too much signal. Turn down the guitar and readjust from that point and you should be just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 But you want to learn, and coming here was a good step. My comment was simply that if you use the DI then you should send a balanced XLR signal to the board. If you plan to go to the board with unbalanced 1/4 inch (which is fine if it works for you) then go ahead and eliminate the DI, otherwise the DI becomes one more potential failure point. If you are overdriving at low gain on the board, then the problem is either with the DI, or with your guitar sending too much signal. Turn down the guitar and readjust from that point and you should be just fine. Well, I try to learn. It's hard to learn when I have some people saying you MUST use a DI Box for any acoustic guitar when plugging into a PA. And now people on this forum (smarter people!! ) are telling me differently. It can get confusing. So why do I need to send a balanced XLR signal to the board if I am going to use the DI? Wait, even more so, what's the difference in a balanced and unbalanced XLR signal and could I be sending the wrong one? The DI Box I am using is fairly sophisticated (LR Baggs Para Acoustic) and "in theory" would be great. It has it's own volume, own gain, EQ... I used it this weekend (without the phantom power, just the 9V battery power) and it worked great. They only reason the instruction manual says to use the Phantom Power is so you don't have to use a battery. Here's another question. Is an XLR a (for lack of a better word) a "hotter" input/line than a 1/4 inch? So, if i plugged my guitar direct with a 1/4 inch or went direct with an XLR (supposing you could) would the guitar still require less gain? maybe this question doesn't even make sense to the professionals.????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Ummm, the Paracoustic DI is a lot more than just a DI. It's also an eq. Nothing wrong with using it, and it does need 48 volt phantom to work properly. That way, you do not need a battery. I prefer all inputs to arrive at the board via DI, it eliminates a lot of unknowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 How would the OP be getting phantom power, if he was using a Tip/sleeve cable termination at the board? AFAIK phantom power is typically assigned to the XLR outputs, not the TS or TRS outputs. EDIT - just reread the post, myabe the TS connectors are used without phantom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 How would the OP be getting phantom power, if he was using a Tip/sleeve cable termination at the board?AFAIK phantom power is typically assigned to the XLR outputs, not the TS or TRS outputs.EDIT - just reread the post, myabe the TS connectors are used without phantom. Yes, the XLR out is what receives phantom power from the console. He is using the 1/4" connections in lieu of the XLR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Ummm, the Paracoustic DI is a lot more than just a DI. It's also an eq. Nothing wrong with using it, and it does need 48 volt phantom to work properly. That way, you do not need a battery.I prefer all inputs to arrive at the board via DI, it eliminates a lot of unknowns. Well, it sounds like it is a problem with the Mackie 808s mixer not having the right phantom power. I guess I will try it with the MixWiz and see if everything is fine. I am sure that is the problem. Ok..so why do you prefer all inputs to arrive via DI?? What would be "the unknowns?" I am sure there are many, so just listing a couple common ones would give me an undestanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted December 1, 2009 Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 tcheatham12, Andy's talking from the perspective of the FOH engineer, receiving your signal from stage, via snake. A D.I. would be ideal in this scenario. You're probably thinking from the perspective of a guy who's mixing from the stage. Short cable between instrument and mixer. No D.I. necessary, but, in "some" locales, you might be glad to have a D.I. handy. (RF interference, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted December 1, 2009 Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 The PADI is very power-hungry, so no wonder when it doesn't work on some mixers. It's not just a DI and EQ - it's also got a very high input impedance, which helps tame a lot of piezo pickup "quack". Best results if there's nothing else (tuner pedal or whatever) between guitar and the DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted December 1, 2009 Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 Here's another question. Is an XLR a (for lack of a better word) a "hotter" input/line than a 1/4 inch? So, if i plugged my guitar direct with a 1/4 inch or went direct with an XLR (supposing you could) would the guitar still require less gain? maybe this question doesn't even make sense to the professionals.????? Yes, the XLR signal will be hotter. Since the DI you are using also does other things, you have the option of sending 1/4" or XLR out. Most basic DI's do just one thing, transform the signal in from the source (guitar, keys, bass) to a balanced XLR output to send to the mixer. If mixing from the stage, then it is not absolutely necessary to use a DI, but many will tell you that it is preferred (count me among those ). So if you get used to a single setup configuration always using a DI then you won't have to "guess" which way to do it when using a different PA. Just remember one very important rule when tracking down distortion problems. Start at the source first, and work your way along to signal chain to the speakers. If it isn't right at the source, you can't "fix" it further down the chain. Eliminate your distortion at the source, then at the DI, then at the board, then at any FX processors, then at the board again and then at the amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted December 1, 2009 Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 I did not try switching the mic cables, but i know it works, I used for my mic this weekend (on a different PA). I'm in agreement with most of the other posters here that your "DI" MUST have a fairly beefy 48V Phantom supply to work correctly (a lot of mics draw very little current and will work down to as low a 10V or less). That said. Just because the cable you used worked OK for your mic doesn't mean that it will carry phantom power correctly. Firstly, if your mic is a dynamic then it will work perfectly well with an open shield yet that same cable won't carry phantom power (just some knowledge for future reference). The fact that Your DI does work though, tells me that the cable is probably OK and the problem lies with either not enough voltage and/or you are now overdriving the input side of the board (as others have stated). Your Luthier friend is basicly correct about needing a DI (and the one you picked sounds like a good choice). Guitar pickups are higher impedence devices and don't particularly like to see the lower impedence inputs of a mixer line input. It doesn't mean that it won't work in a pinch but using a higher impedence active DI (Like the one you have) will not load down your pickup outputs and therefore usualy give you better tone (active pickups are the the exception to this rule). A DI (as has also been stated) also gives you of a much better chance of having a noise free signal at the board under varying conditions (especially for longer runs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 1, 2009 Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 The XLR balanced output on a DI is NOT hotter than the 1/4" out, in fact it's generally 20dB lower. The XLR out is generally the only output that is isolated, and will accept phantom power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tcheatham12 Posted December 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2009 A lot of great responses. I appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss. It's all very interesting to me and I think I have a better understanding of it now, although not totally clear but I think I can at least get by! In response to one of the posts, I do have an active pickup in the guitar. Thanks and if you think I need to know anything else, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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