Essentials vs Rack Luxuries?

[nbaldwin]

With the advice of you veterans, I'm cobbling together a PA system that I hope will produce a nice sound for our band that plays Motown, classic rock, & pop. I finally bought KV2 10s for mains and one KV2 ex2.2 sub for now (they're powered). Monitors are also powered (JBL G2 15 Eons and an EV SXA 100). I also purchased a A&H MixWiz 16.2 that has built in effects.

I conceptually understand equalization, compression, gating, and limiting, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out what are the next essential purchases. When people tout the virtues of sonic maximizers, feedback eliminators, and DriveRacks, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Any advice on what is/are next essential(s). I might go for a little icing on the cake, but don't have the money for luxuries. Much thanks!

[TimmyP]

Maximizer/Exciter: Might be good inserted on a channel. On the entire mix - I always bypass them - preferably by wiring around them.

 

Compressor: If you want the vocal smooth in up front as on a good CD, you want one. But you don't want it on the monitors, which it will be if it's inserted in a channel.

 

A good reverb is very nice, but is icing. You need a good cake on which to put it.

 

Most drums are much too ringy, and need gates to tame them.

[Mike M]

 

When people tout the virtues of sonic maximizers, feedback eliminators, and DriveRacks, I'm a bit overwhelmed.

 

 

I have a modest rig and provide sound for yearly indoor live performances plus production for many outdoor events in my local area.

I own a Driverack (never use it other than to feed a delay to remote stacks).+.no sonic maximizer..(what does a sonic maximizer do??)...feedback eliminator (isn't that what the foh/monitor eq's are for??)

most of the above is wasted rack space in my opinion.

 

Mike M

[philw44]

31 band EQ's are essential.

 

You'll need to insert one on the Main outputs and one on every monitor send. With these you can optimally tune the PA to the room and increase gain before feedback substantially on monitors.

 

The Cheapest best sounding units i've come across are:

DBX 231

DOD 231

Phonic GEQ3100

 

Wouldn't consider Behringer on this. Some of their stuff is alright but i don't rate the graphic EQ one bit.

 

 

Compressor/gates are pretty handy. I consider Kick, Bass and Lead vocal a priority on these. As discussed in an earlier thread you can insert a comp on the vocal and not have it in your monitors on the MixWiz because the aux sends are PRE-insert.

 

Gating the kick drum is very easy if your mic is inside the drum. Gating Snares, Toms etc. is a lot harder and in some situations impossible when the drummer has too much dynamic range to set it accurately.

 

I'd recommend the DBX266xl for instruments and the DBX166Xl for vocals. (The 166xl sounds slightly nicer in my opinion).

 

The MixWiz reverbs are alright so i wouldn't consider getting a reverb unit unless you want to spend a fair bit.

[nbaldwin]

 

Maximizer/Exciter: Might be good inserted on a channel. On the entire mix - I always bypass them - preferably by wiring around them. Compressor: If you want the vocal smooth in up front as on a good CD, you want one. But you don't want it on the monitors, which it will be if it's inserted in a channel. A good reverb is very nice, but is icing. You need a good cake on which to put it. Most drums are much too ringy, and need gates to tame them.

 

 

Thanks. I've got a guy who will sell me a one-year old DBX 266xl compressor/gate for $80. He also has a good price on a DBX 1231 dual equalizer. I'm surprised that you didn't suggest an equalizer. Is the mixers equalizer enough?

[allexcosta]

31 band EQ's for FOH

15 or 31 band EQ's for each monitor aux

2 channel gate/compressor/limiter for kick and main voice

[dboomer]

 

what is/are next essential(s).

 

 

Maybe NOTHING!

 

Are you having any problems?

 

If you don't really understand the other gear you've mentioned there is a much better chance that by using it you will end up with worse sound than you now have.

 

That said ... "good" feedback eliminators are nice to have if you don't understand tuning monitors any other way (and have the gear to do it). By good I mean Sabine, DBX or Peavey feedback eliminators. They basically stay out of the circuit unless you encounter a problem, then they automatically dial in and help fix it.

[Unalaska]

I'd have to agree with dBoomer, maybe nothing. There are other areas to spend a little to make life easier: Decent cases for amps/rack gear, cases for cables etc. Are you still using 16ga orange extention cords with the grounds cut off? Mic cases? stand bags? Lighting works?

[banddad]

Essentials? It sounds like you have them! Nice choices on the gear you have.

 

Next things to help? It depends, get some experience with what you have to find shortcomings. While not in the rack department, good mics are essential. With good speakers (you got em!) and good mics, not much eq is needed. Accessories to make setup easier, including a snake, become essential to some of us. Consider getting all monitors the same.

 

Alse essential: experience. Read and study - there are a few good books manuals on live sound out there.

 

Most important: Get out an use your gear! Most audiences are less critical than us, as long as they can hear all the instruments, with vocals on top.

 

Have fun!

[stevieb]

31-band EQ, as mentioned, above.

 

I like compression on monitor speakers in case you have a belter vocalist (blew out a small monitor once, never again...)

 

Decent reverb is good to have if doing an outside show, near useless inside.

 

I have two channels of feedback eliminators, but rarely use them.

 

Just my two cents.

[Shaster]

Essentials, hmmmm

 

A couple of good sound books.

 

A case for your Mix Wiz.

 

Good mics.

 

Equalizers.

 

A rack for your equalizers.

 

Good cables (Audiopile etc.)

 

A light for your board (anything that works - the A&H one is really expensive).

 

A good flashlight, multidriver, stash of gaff tape....

 

And so on....

[Craig Vecchione]

Use the rig. Whatever is next (IF anything...less is more) will be apparent. Never assume you need anything.

 

dboomer's post is exactly right.

[SteinbergerHack]

I like compression on monitor speakers

 

 

Monitors should always be dry. Period. Adding compression or limiting is one of the worst things you can do to a singer.

[nbaldwin]

Much thanks for all of the advice thus far. The current rough tally of essentials for the rack are:

 

4 posts--support equalizers

3 posts--suggest wait and see through playing

3 posts--support compressors/gates

1 post--feedback eliminators

 

I like the wait and see approach, but also worry about getting to a gig and realizing that we need something that we don't have. Feedback has been a problem with our introductory level equipment, as has been getting the on-stage sound right to please everyone. Whether some of these problems can be solved with the new system, I don't know yet.

I would have guessed that everyone would have said get a 31 band graphic equalizer and have been ready to buy one. Perhaps I've got too strong a Christmas self-gift itch?

[6Imzadi]

Why dont you think about a really "all-in-one" solution?

 

Presonus' StudioLive mixer. This has the gates, compressors and equalizers all in one package. Try buying all the outboard gear you would need to have all that on every channel of your present mixer. Then, you could just sell all the gear you have accumulated to defray the cost.

I got mine for $1699. Best money I have spent on my PA. And it records, too.

 

Check this out. and this.

[IsildursBane]

 

If you don't really understand the other gear you've mentioned there is a much better chance that by using it you will end up with worse sound than you now have.

 

 

That's very true.

 

There's also a difference between buying a rig just for your band and buying one that you'll use with a variety of different bands. From the perspective of sound provider, I'd get the 31-band eq's that have been mentioned, as well as at least 4 channels of not-{censored}ty compressors, 4ch of gates, and separate delay & reverb units. Minimum. Then again, from the perspective of a sound provider, I'd get something bigger than a Mixwiz, too.

 

For your own band, however, it depends on what you need. If you don't need gates on the drums, you don't needs gates on the drums. If you don't need a vocal comp, then you don't need a vocal comp. For monitors, if you're doing 4 mixes, I'd try to put the money towards getting the band on IEM's and forgo wedges altogether. By the time you buy the wedges & the eq's, you could have gotten yourself a pretty decent wireless set, but that may pose it's own problems if you're mixing yourselves.

 

-Dan.

[nbaldwin]

"Why dont you think about a really "all-in-one" solution? Presonus' StudioLive mixer. This has the gates, compressors and equalizers all in one package. . . ."

 

 

 

I'll have to admit, you've spurned my curiosity. I'm finding some good deals on fairly new but used equipment and am not yet anticipating all of my purchases adding up to the cost of a Presonus. Is there anything the Presonus doesn't do or doesn't do that well?

[jgthatsme]

 

31 band EQ's for FOH 15 or 31 band EQ's for each monitor aux 2 channel gate/compressor/limiter for kick and main voice

 

 

I think most would argue that a 31 band EQ is much more critical for monitors than for FOH.

[tele-vangelist]

Since the op has a sub, I don't see a crossover mentioned anywhere ...

[Kurd_01]

The KV2 Sub has a very nice built in crossover that then runs to the tops.

 

I've never found a need for and EQ on my EX10's, but a 31 band for the monitors could be essential.

 

Oh and you say you've got 2 x 10's and a 2.2, I've had that for 3 years and never needed more, I've done stuff outside to about 600/700 people with it, sure it wasn't rock club levels but you could hear everything right to the back.

 

I was always tempted by another sub, but decided it wasn't worth it for 90% of the stuff I do

 

Depends on what you do with your rig though.

 

Dave

[Chickentown]

"Why dont you think about a really "all-in-one" solution? Presonus' StudioLive mixer. This has the gates, compressors and equalizers all in one package. . . ." I'll have to admit, you've spurned my curiosity. I'm finding some good deals on fairly new but used equipment and am not yet anticipating all of my purchases adding up to the cost of a Presonus. Is there anything the Presonus doesn't do or doesn't do that well?

 

Yes, have a close look at the StudioLive to eliminate most of your FOH rack while getting a very intuitive 16-channel mixer that saves scenes and records.

 

*But* IMHO you will still need to carry a crossover and EQ's for your monitor mixes. The StudioLive has a 4-band semi-parametric EQ that can be used on all auxes, but in practice most SL users agree that an outboard (usually graphic) EQ is a better tool. There is a full graphic on the SL for mains. Here's my whole FOH rig:

[agedhorse]

and you have spoiled a perfectly good signal path with WHAT kind of eq and crossover???

[nbaldwin]

You Presonus Studio Live fans have really caused me to pause, as have those suggesting that I "wait and see" what my new system dictates as far as a next essential purchase. My small immediate dilemma is trying to decide whether to purchase a one-year-old DBX 1231 dual equalizer, assuming one channel would work with the monitors, the other with the mains (or maybe a second monitor mix). A friend will sell it for $225 (retails for $360 on-line), and I'm afraid that if I wait much longer someone else will grab it. Do I resist temptation or quit looking at a gift-horse in the proverbial mouth (i.e., if it is a gift-horse)?

[philw44]

I'd Get it. Even if you did have a Presonus you would still need the 31band EQ on monitors. It's a good unit too.

 

Presonus is a nice all in one package and the recording possiblities (IMO) is it's main selling point. But at the end of the day your only really saving on lugging around maybe 6-8u of rack gear. Not a big deal. You can buy one of those racks with the angled mixer attachment on top and have it all wired in ready to go.

 

As user-friendly as the PSL is - most of the important things take one button press more to access.

[Chickentown]

Oh c'mon, 'Horse. Given a bigger budget, I'd opt for better rack gear on x-over and monitor duty eq's...maybe it doesn't pass your sniff test, but it doesn't *sound* spoiled.

 

hand-face emoticon me? Why I oughta...