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Hello all, it has been over a decade since i've been here.  I had gotten out of running sound, got married, have 2 boys 7 and 4.  Now here comes the important parts.  I have gotten involved with a church as the sound tech about 3 months ago.  I have been slowly getting things squared away and forgotten about this site until just today.  The church runs a contemporary service with drums, bass, 2 electric guitars, acoustic guitar, 2 or 3 vocals, and they are looking to add a keyboard player.  

 

The current gear for FOH and Mains are this:

behringer mx 2442a(about to be taken out of service for a soundcraft gb4 40 channel mixer i scored on ebay for 400 bucks monday. only 1 channel has a gain issue, rest works well)

they have 2 24 channel snakes run to FOH

Mains are:

1 per side Yamaha S115IV (500w rms @8ohm)

1 per side MTX PRO 215 (400w rms @8ohm)

AMP is qsc rmx 1450 NOT A

they have the yamaha and mtx on each side running in parallel so i think from what i can tell it is running a 4 ohm load on the amp, which is rated at 280@ohm and 450@4ohm and 700@2Ohm.  I am looking to get a crossover and an amp or amps to properly drive those speakers.  as it stands i am pushing the clip light when on the behringer it hits +4 on the main fader, so i keep it below that.  my concern is with how this is set up currently i am wasting what watts i have trying to drive mismatched speakers by running both in full range, plus having undersized amp on them as well.  I would like some guideance as to what to do here.  I don't have much money to spend, and ebay is my friend, so recommended amp/amps would be much appreciated.  Volume wise, we get to just about 90db on my handheld SPL meter, but we have no room to push it when we get to big moments in songs.  ALL help is appreciated.  monitor wise, we are paired well with amp to speaker needs watts wise per rms.

 

Thanks,

Chad

 

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Are you sure the MTX are an 8 ohm speaker? I used a set for a few shows and thought they were 4 ohm's each. Regardless you have a somewhat small amp so you may be getting all you can get out of what you have. 450 watts divided by 2 is 225 watts RMS to each speaker. Kind of low. I'd look for an amp in the 1000 watts per channel at 4 ohms. The amp you have properly bridged would work driving the Yamaha's alone. It is 1400 watts mono at 4 ohms bridged or 700 watts to each speaker. Keep the clip lights from flashing a lot in use and have the 50hz low cut on. You'd need another amp for the MTX. Maybe with a crossover just use them for subs? A good system would be a mono system. Bridged 1450 for the Yamaha's and an amp in the 900 watts per box range for the MTX with a crossover built into it so 100hz and above is taking out so they are used as subs.  Is the Yamaha S115IV setting on top of the Mtx's? 

Edited by Dookietwo
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Dookietwo, the speaker front itself says its a 4/8ohm speaker and it is built into the front of the stage and I cannot get access to the back side, nor can I find any information on google, bing, mtx's website as to the true speakers ohm rating.

Yes I am planning to get an active crossover here at some point and also get an amp for the mtx to run them as subs.  I hadn't thought of running the yamaha's with the 1450 amp bridged or to get a better matched amp to run at 8 ohm, and later add another set of them per side. and use the 1450 for monitor duty down the road if we need to add another 2 monitor mixes.

The mtxs are built into the front edge of the stage, and the yamaha's are sitting on the corners of the stage at the edge of the arch(this was an old theater before converted to church) and are about 3 feet higher than the mtx's.

 

I will get some pictures of the stage and speaker layout tomorrow morning during soundcheck before church and post them when I get home. Hopefully that will help give people a better idea of whats going on.

 

Another question:  The church also has a pair of old Community CS70 speakers (4 ohm 600w rms 1500w peak).    They are not in service, and I'm not sure if they still work, but would those be a better fit for the mid highs than the yamaha's?  I would definetly need a bigger amp to power those big boys properly though.  Back 20ish years ago when i was running sound, we had 2 pair and 2 18" subs per side and they got plenty loud and to my ears sounded pretty good.

Thank you for your time and replies :)

Chad

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The Community CS70-S2 were a high output speaker in their day. Right around 105 db output for a 1 watt input. If in good working order they would be Miles above the MTX speakers and should be much better than the Yamaha's as well. They were around 500 to 600 watts rms and could have an amp in the 1200 to 1600 watt rms at 4 ohms range if I remember right. Odd that they are not being used. Seems like the MTX are in a bad spot right now I wonder if they can be unplugged and the CS70's could be plugged in for a try? Again have the 50hz low cut dip switches on in the back of the amp for both channels. The CS-70's on top of a double 18 crossed around 100hz or so properly powered would make a nice rig. Even a self powered 18 inch sub that had High Frequency Out XLR's going to your current QSC amp to feed the CS-70's would be a nice , simple setup. Pictures would be nice to get a better idea as to what your looking at.

Doug

Edited by Dookietwo
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Thank you for your input.  I just got home from church and took a couple of quick pics before rehearsal this morning.  I have attached them to this post.  I however did not get a chance to find out if the community cabinets are still in working order or not.  If they are, would they be a better use vs the yamaha's? 

 

I know that I am going to probably have to at some point get better cabinets for subs other than the mtx's in the future but if the community cabs are still in good working order would they outrun the mtxs and make it really noticable?

 

and would the qsc run the community cabs decently enough for now until i could get more powerful amp?  I will double check but believe the amp dip switch is on 30 hz low cut, didn't think to bump it to 50 since currently don't have a dedicated crossover.  When I go to practice this coming week I will move that to 50 hz, and try to get more idea about the community cabs as well.

Thanks again for your help! 

pic 1.jpg

pic 2.jpg

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Thanks for the pictures. Makes it easier. If I'm reading your post correctly and looking at the pictures the MTX on their side and the Yamaha's set on the stage are both full range.  I'm guessing a stereo setup?

Amp Channel A going to a Yamaha and MTX on the Right and Channel B going to the Left side MTX and Yamaha?  The MTX set on their sides close to the floor are not filling the room in any way. The people in front and blocking the sound. (I'm thinking at one time someone did use them for subs) 

2nd issue is the Yamaha's are not really tall enough either.  Looking at the floor going up, not knowing how far back the room goes , I'd have the center of the Yamaha horns at least as high as a person standing on the stages head would be. Have the horns around 6 feet high. 

3 thoughts.

1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and have them safely strapped to them. Upside down will better couple the horns of the MTX and Yamaha giving better output. 1 speaker cable to the MTX out to the Yamaha's. 

2.  Put the Community speaker where the Yamaha's are now. Again place the Yamaha's on top of them and upside down properly strapped for safety.  Unplug and not use the MTX speakers. Go into the Community speakers from the QSC amp and then out of them with a short speaker cable up to the Yamaha speakers.  This will give the QSC amp about a 3 ohm load or so but it is rated at a 2 ohm load. More current (wattage) will flow to the Communities but you may like the overall sound. 

3.  Find a way to get the Community speakers put in the place of the Yamaha's and up so the middle of them is roughly 4 feet high or so.  ( maybe on top of the MTX if it feels safe to do so )  1 amp channel to each Community speaker. 450 watts to each one and just see what the Community speakers will do alone.

Maybe find a day to try these different setups when there is no people around with good recorded music to see what seems to be the best match. You may not have an ideal amp or speaker setup but you may be able to get it sounding better. At the very least get some tripods for the Yamaha's or set them on a table etc. to get them higher. 

Doug

 

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21 minutes ago, Dookietwo said:

Thanks for the pictures. Makes it easier. If I'm reading your post correctly and looking at the pictures the MTX on their side and the Yamaha's set on the stage are both full range.  I'm guessing a stereo setup?  Yes it is a stereo set up

Amp Channel A going to a Yamaha and MTX on the Right and Channel B going to the Left side MTX and Yamaha?  The MTX set on their sides close to the floor are not filling the room in any way. The people in front and blocking the sound. (I'm thinking at one time someone did use them for subs) Yes that is correct, however when I have walked in front of the stage while playing either canned music or the band practicing I notice that there is not much highs coming out of the mtx.

2nd issue is the Yamaha's are not really tall enough either.  Looking at the floor going up, not knowing how far back the room goes , I'd have the center of the Yamaha horns at least as high as a person standing on the stages head would be. Have the horns around 6 feet high.   Where i took the picture from there is about 4 more rows of seats and then the back wall.  There is also a balcony but we don't have anyone sitting up there during services that I know of as we have roughly 50-75 people there typically and near 100 on occasion so plenty of seating on main level.

3 thoughts.

1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and have them safely strapped to them. Upside down will better couple the horns of the MTX and Yamaha giving better output. 1 speaker cable to the MTX out to the Yamaha's. How would you go about strapping the  speakers together?  I have a thought on how its done, but if i do anything I want to do it safely and properly.

2.  Put the Community speaker where the Yamaha's are now. Again place the Yamaha's on top of them and upside down properly strapped for safety.  Unplug and not use the MTX speakers. Go into the Community speakers from the QSC amp and then out of them with a short speaker cable up to the Yamaha speakers.  This will give the QSC amp about a 3 ohm load or so but it is rated at a 2 ohm load. More current (wattage) will flow to the Communities but you may like the overall sound. 

3.  Find a way to get the Community speakers put in the place of the Yamaha's and up so the middle of them is roughly 4 feet high or so.  ( maybe on top of the MTX if it feels safe to do so )  1 amp channel to each Community speaker. 450 watts to each one and just see what the Community speakers will do alone.

Maybe find a day to try these different setups when there is no people around with good recorded music to see what seems to be the best match. You may not have an ideal amp or speaker setup but you may be able to get it sounding better. At the very least get some tripods for the Yamaha's or set them on a table etc. to get them higher.   Thanks so much for your suggestions.  I will take some time in the next couple weeks to get in there and do some other work so I will try these suggestions out.

 

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1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and ha   (((("""" How would you go about strapping the  speakers together?  I have a thought on how its done, but if i do anything I want to do it safely and properly.""""))))

Most use small ratchet straps through the handles , up and over then back down through the handles on the other side.  As always its up to the user to determine what is safe. Consult a professional rigger should you not know for sure. 

Doug

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That was what i was thinking, or using wood screws and some angle brackets to screw together.  whatever i do for testing i won't strap down as nobody will be nearby, but if i find something that sounds better than current setup, i will secure them down thats for sure.  would hate for someone to get injured by them falling.

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3 hours ago, ChadGrieser1979 said:

That was what i was thinking, or using wood screws and some angle brackets to screw together.  whatever i do for testing i won't strap down as nobody will be nearby, but if i find something that sounds better than current setup, i will secure them down thats for sure.  would hate for someone to get injured by them falling.

If you look around some places sell black ratchet straps. They of course don't stick out the way the yellow ones do.

Doug

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sorry for the delay in getting back with some updates, was quite busy and also didn't have much time to look into things until last night.  I was able to hook up the community cs70 speakers and run sound thru them.  At first glance they sounded quite a bit better than they yamahas.  However, after doing some more listening to them one at a time and really paying attention to the sounds, myself and another person there at practice who was just hanging out we noticed that on one of the speakers there was quite a bit of the high end missing from the stage left speaker compared to the stage right one.  I carefully took the back plate and crossover units out of both cabinets, and the one has both light bulbs with the filaments broken(this is the one with missing high end).  The good sounding speaker has both bulbs with intact filaments.  So here is my question.

I know those bulbs were there as a overload protect of sorts for the horns, but with the filaments broken in both bulbs on the one speaker be the cause of the missing high end?  If so, what type of bulb do I need to repair them, and is it something I can do with a bit of soldering?

I am still in the process of collecting funds for a crossover and another power amp to properly drive the mtx's for subs and either the yamahas or community cabs for mid highs.  Much appreciate any help anyone could give.

crosssover 2.jpg

crossover 4.jpg

crossover 3.jpg

crossover 1.jpg

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By looking at the pictures it's hard to tell if there is something wrong with the rest of the crossover but there is one thing you can try.  Only to test.  Take a short piece of wire and make a jumper to take the place of the light bulb. Connect the wire to one end of the light bulb and go over to the other end of it. Basically replace the bulb with a solid wire. Be sure that the wire has plastic on it where it is not connected to the bulb ends so it won't short anything. Then at a low level try music through it and see if the horn section will work then. Do this only if you feel your able to do this correctly. If the horn section works now then try to find the correct light bulbs to replace. Maybe contact the company?  Only other thing to try would be to swap out the crossovers to put the good crossover in the bad sounding box.  

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Thanks for the suggestion of a piece of wire to test it out without replacing the bulb.  I did find on full compass website that they have in their community speaker parts lists an sk3 bulb used for community and jbl crossover networks.  I haven't ordered bulbs yet.  I will try to do the test with the wire Sunday morning during rehearsal and see what I hear.  i've got plenty of wire at home to take a bit and use for a test.  If that works, i'll order the bulbs.  Looking at both crossovers there does not seem to be any parts that look burned or caps that are bulged, or windings that look damaged in any way.  However I am not an electrician nor do i have the tools to check those parts either, however one of our guitarists IS an electrician and may be able to help with diagnosis of any potential parts being bad or going bad.  Thanks again for your help, it is much appreciated!

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As an update.  I had time to to a test with a wire, and wow, it worked.  It sounds just like the other speaker, so I went ahead and got 4 bulbs on order and will swap out the bulbs in both crossovers so that I won't worry about the other ones bulbs going out on me.  From what i can figure out amp wise, I am looking to try to score a used plx 3402 or 3602 for the community cabinets, as well as a decent crossover.  Use for now the qsc rmx 1450 for the mtxs as subs.  Does that sound alright?  Or should I be looking into picking up a plx 3002 for the mtx speakers?  Yeah i know I've got a qsc amp fixation, I had used them back long ago when running sound and they were very good amps and sounded good to me as well.   Behringer super pro xl 3400 a good crossover?  I like the built in limiters, phase inversion.  I believe from what I can read up on them they also have a bit of time delay on them as well.  Cant tell if its for the subs or highs though.  Been a while since I've dealt with having to set and dial in crossovers.

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Glad you found the issue with the crossovers. The light bulbs are a protection. Sometimes there is a device that at a given input will start putting over current (wattage) to the bulbs to help protect the high frequency section. Sometimes a poly switch of sorts. I've seen at some shows a sound person will push a speaker too hard and you can see the insides of the speakers lighting up. Not good... ;-)  

Amps are always a user thing. I've used a bunch from different companies.  AB International, Peavey, QSC, to name a few. I had a 3002 and thought it was a good amp. Today many amps have crossovers in them so it might be worth the time to look around to find one with a basic 100 hz crossover built in. I may have a basic write up on a active crossover setup somewhere around here. May take a day or two of looking to find it.  Sounds like your going to keep it simple for the best sound. Subs doing 100 to 120hz and below with the tops doing that and above. I've used many,many different crossovers through the years. This photo has 2 Peavey CEX5 crossovers in it. They went out of production years ago.

Keep us informed as you go.

Doug

EDIT:  Just as a side note the 2 - 15 band Peavey eq wasn't used. My next door neighbors 4 year old daughter loved to move those faders around when the system was home so those strange eq settings were not used. 

1451440_713929025284411_673884350_n_713929025284411.jpg

Edited by Dookietwo
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Thanks for the reply.  And yes trying to KISS as possible while having the best sound I can get as well. I am currently the only person running sound, and want to get as much of the stuff set up and dialed in as I can before having someone else start working with it who may not have any clue about whats going on.  The more I get set up and dialed in, the less someone else may need to mess around with outside of setting up gain and mixing on the board.

I think for now, I will just get a crossover, and a 3002 for the community cabinets now that i have funds for an amp and possibly crossover.  Once I get that situated, i may try selling the 1450 and get another 3002 for the mtx to use as subs.  In the future sometime I would like to get some actual dedicated subs.  Looking at possibly using a pair of single 18s per side or a single 2x18s per side.  Those will probably be the hardest part to find without paying a boatload for shipping or a boatload for new, as well as to get ones that will sound good.

another thing i'm working on is to get some more compression channels for the drums, bass vocals, etc.  i'm currently using a behringer multicom pro which is a 4 channel compressor.  It works, I just would like a couple good compressors for vocals, and some decent ones for drums  bass etc.  I am thinking of the presonus acp 88 for drums etc, but cannot decide what would be good for vocals.  Need 4 channels for vocals.  The presonus acp88 was a great compressor when I used it long ago. 

What helps me out is that we have the same group of people in the worship band from week to week, so i can mostly set things and forget it.  I appreciate all the time you have been helping me with this as well.  I will try to remember to get pics of my FOH set up, plus the amp rack, and mess of a stage we've got right now.  The stage will get cleaned up once I am able to get the amp and crossover, and take a saturday to work on setting things up and cleaning up the stage.  Gonna tape down all the cables and cords and power to keep it organized).

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   Just something for you to think about. Sometimes when I've walked into a show where they had different brands/makes of speakers being used I would run what is called a Dual PA setup.  If your running a Mono PA you could pan to the Left the Vocals, guitars etc. and have the left out go to the amp that is powering the Community speakers and have the drums, bass guitar etc. panned to the right and have the right out feed the amp or amp channel that is feeding your MTX PRO 215 speakers.  What this does is splits the "work" up if you will to 2 different PA's and gives you control as to which PA receives which of your boards channels. Just by using Pan you can assign what you want to which pair of speakers.  I'm unsure if the amp you have now will go down to 2 ohms but without the drums and bass guitar in the Community speakers you may be able to do this now. Left out from your desk to Channel A on the amp for the Community speakers, Right out on your desk to Channel B for the MTX PRO 215 speakers. Even just having the Bass Drum and Bass Guitar into the MTX's may help clean things up for now. Looks like the drums may be loud enough in your room and just need some low end added.  Only down side is not having a stereo mix. If you had a Post Fade Aux mix from your board free and another amp you could run a stereo Community speaker mains and a mono MTX speakers Aux fed setup as well. Use the post fade Aux send to feed the MTX speakers and the L/R to feed the Community ones.  Just don't assign what is going to the Aux to the L/R bus. 

Again something to think about;

Doug

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Thanks for the information.  I actually was able to score a 3402 on monday for 400 bucks and no shipping as it was local so picked it up tuesday.  Last night I was able to get the community cabinet repaired and swapped out the rmx 1450 for that.  Yes the rmx was able to run 2 ohm, but it couldn't keep up very well.  Now with running the communities and mtx cabinets together as I had with the yamahas/mtx was night and day difference.  It was like i flipped a switch and it sounds LOUD.  I have a handheld spl meter and on the rmx amp running the yamaha/mtx I could only get to around 102 db "a" weighted and that was hitting the clip lights when kick drum would hit.  When I got everything set up and a good mix running, I went and checked the amp to see how she was handling things, and I wasn't hitting the clip light, so I went to make sure the mix was at 0 unity on the mains out and grabbed my spl meter.  I left it run for a good while as the band was finishing a song and getting into a new one, and once they got into the chorus a bit i looked down and seen I had hit 108 db.  I knew it SOUNDED good, and could actually feel the bass and some of the kick, but I was floored it was 6db louder than before.  I pushed the system slowly until i would occasionally hit the clip and that was roughly 2ish above 0 on the fader, so about +3 on the output.  After practice was done,  the band was like, what did you do?  It sounded amazing.  Their stage amps and monitors was loud enough on stage they couldn't hear anything from FOH speakers, but last night they could definitely hear a difference. 

 

 

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I forgot to add to that last update post.  I def need a crossover, and some actual dedicated subs.  I think I will get a behringer super-x pro cx3400 crossover.  I just need to figure out what subs to get without breaking the bank as I am buying as I get paid from the church.  All of the gear i've gotten for the church I have gotten from ebay and gotten pretty good deals on things.  I was thinking of going with 18's for subs, probably 2 18's per side under the community cabinets.  Any suggestions on true sub speakers?  I am thinking of going passive subs and get another 3402 to run them, just not sure what ones are good without being too expensive that I would need a few months to collect funds to purchase some.  Subs seem expensive to buy from ebay as they are so large and heavy.  Would buying something new be an alright option?  Yamaha's double 18s look to be a good value for double 18s vs over single 18s of their same line.  I have never heard or used the behringer speakers so i'm hesitant to get those, unless someone chimes in and says if they are reliable or sound good.   I think i would like jbls over yamahas yet i'm not sure if i could afford to do that unless doing there low end subs and still would cost more as it only comes as a single 18, vs the double 18s of the yamahas.  Any insight into this is most appreciated.

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   As far as subs there is many, many choices.   I would look into Powered subs because at their price point it just makes sense to have a speaker/amp setup all designed to work together.  Also some subs have an input and a High Frequency output jack. They sometimes even have a full range out and a High Frequency out. With a powered sub with a crossover High Frequency out to go to your new amp it would be a very simple system to setup. 

   These are just a low cost example of a pair of subs that has a High Frequency out , full range out (pass though) on the back. I wouldn't recommend going lower in quality than this. With this you wouldn't have to buy a crossover or another amp. A local band has a set of these and really don't sound too bad for what they are. Again just an example.  It would be nice to find subs that would fit where the MTX are now to keep them hidden. https://www.americanmusical.com/peavey-pv-118d-powered-pa-subwoofer/p/PEV-PV118D?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&adpos=&scid=scplpPEV+PV118D&sc_intid=PEV+PV118D&gclid=CjwKCAiAzNj9BRBDEiwAPsL0d4sJueQcSAKuvEUPvqdhNnu75xU28SiY-fwW3JH7YPF5ffl8j835choC0McQAvD_BwE

Best of luck in your search and let us know how your final setup is!

Doug

Edited by Dookietwo
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Happy new year and belated Merry Christmas to all.  I know its been a few weeks since I've posted, and wanted to give an update/ask for suggestions.  We had a bit of a mess a few weeks back as someone decided to quit doing worship music, and they took all their gear with them, which included quite a few mics and most all of the mic stands, and we were left with old clunky ones.  We have filled some of the void, and I am working to get us back into a good spot again.  I have our mains as the community cabinets sitting on edge of stage where they yamahas had been, along with the mtxs where they are in stage yet.  I'm still running both in full range, as finances have not been available for a crossover or subs, so thats on hold yet.  Now that the system is quite a bit louder, there is some complaints about it being too loud, and back where i'm at FOH land my spl meter hits a max of around 102db (a weighted).  I know it was suggested to get the horns higher, and I am looking into how to do that with those monster community cabinets.  I am considering building some wooden stands for them, just not sure if i should use 2x4s or 4x4s for the legs.  I planned to use 2x4s for around the top.  I also planned to used angle brackets (at least 1 per leg) and screw them to the legs and floor, as well as some straight brackets to secure the cabinets to the stands.  Does that sound good, or should I use ratchet straps to hold the speakers to the stands.  I know it needs to be secure, I want to make sure the weight is supported well and nothing would happen to fall.  I feel brackets would be a better bet as i could use 2 or 3 per side and a couple along the back on the speaker to the stand.    Thanks for any input you may give. 

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A couple of suggestions:

If you're looking for more powerful amps, as long as you don't mind the extra power consumption, there are tons of clean, older class A/B amps around for pennies on the dollar. Everyone who does portable sound is buying digital switching amps because they are lighter, more power efficient (current from your building's AC) and relatively inexpensive per watt. So they're selling off their still working heavy old power amps. The older amps don't sound worse (some would say better - discussion would be OT) they're just heavy. No problem for an installation though :).

Wasn't there a suggestion of using the subs as speaker stands? I second that suggestion. Under the stage subs can be problematic in that they can resonate up through the stage and wreak havoc with live mics there. This might also solve your speaker height situation (yes ratchet straps and no skid (like kitchen drawer liner) is a great way to safely stack speakers. You will loose a little bottom end by decoupling with the floor but will probably have an easier time over all.

Just some thoughts.

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Thanks for your thoughts.  Much appreciated.  If at some point I get more funding, I will probably leave the speakers in the stage there, and just put the subs on the stage and the mains on top of those.  Until then, I will probably make some sort of speaker stands for them for now.  IF i can figure out the best way to build them..  I have an idea but want a bit of input on the structure of the stands before I build anything.

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Not sure if this is ongoing. Great read... some thoughts...

i own 4 of the Behringer passive subs and used them in lots of settings. My church has had them for 5 or so years. They certainly work although I reckon in the second hand market you could do better.

108db in that building would be loud. Focus on getting your FOH higher. 

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