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Hello all, it has been over a decade since i've been here.  I had gotten out of running sound, got married, have 2 boys 7 and 4.  Now here comes the important parts.  I have gotten involved with a church as the sound tech about 3 months ago.  I have been slowly getting things squared away and forgotten about this site until just today.  The church runs a contemporary service with drums, bass, 2 electric guitars, acoustic guitar, 2 or 3 vocals, and they are looking to add a keyboard player.  

 

The current gear for FOH and Mains are this:

behringer mx 2442a(about to be taken out of service for a soundcraft gb4 40 channel mixer i scored on ebay for 400 bucks monday. only 1 channel has a gain issue, rest works well)

they have 2 24 channel snakes run to FOH

Mains are:

1 per side Yamaha S115IV (500w rms @8ohm)

1 per side MTX PRO 215 (400w rms @8ohm)

AMP is qsc rmx 1450 NOT A

they have the yamaha and mtx on each side running in parallel so i think from what i can tell it is running a 4 ohm load on the amp, which is rated at 280@ohm and 450@4ohm and 700@2Ohm.  I am looking to get a crossover and an amp or amps to properly drive those speakers.  as it stands i am pushing the clip light when on the behringer it hits +4 on the main fader, so i keep it below that.  my concern is with how this is set up currently i am wasting what watts i have trying to drive mismatched speakers by running both in full range, plus having undersized amp on them as well.  I would like some guideance as to what to do here.  I don't have much money to spend, and ebay is my friend, so recommended amp/amps would be much appreciated.  Volume wise, we get to just about 90db on my handheld SPL meter, but we have no room to push it when we get to big moments in songs.  ALL help is appreciated.  monitor wise, we are paired well with amp to speaker needs watts wise per rms.

 

Thanks,

Chad

 

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Are you sure the MTX are an 8 ohm speaker? I used a set for a few shows and thought they were 4 ohm's each. Regardless you have a somewhat small amp so you may be getting all you can get out of what you have. 450 watts divided by 2 is 225 watts RMS to each speaker. Kind of low. I'd look for an amp in the 1000 watts per channel at 4 ohms. The amp you have properly bridged would work driving the Yamaha's alone. It is 1400 watts mono at 4 ohms bridged or 700 watts to each speaker. Keep the clip lights from flashing a lot in use and have the 50hz low cut on. You'd need another amp for the MTX. Maybe with a crossover just use them for subs? A good system would be a mono system. Bridged 1450 for the Yamaha's and an amp in the 900 watts per box range for the MTX with a crossover built into it so 100hz and above is taking out so they are used as subs.  Is the Yamaha S115IV setting on top of the Mtx's? 

Edited by Dookietwo
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Dookietwo, the speaker front itself says its a 4/8ohm speaker and it is built into the front of the stage and I cannot get access to the back side, nor can I find any information on google, bing, mtx's website as to the true speakers ohm rating.

Yes I am planning to get an active crossover here at some point and also get an amp for the mtx to run them as subs.  I hadn't thought of running the yamaha's with the 1450 amp bridged or to get a better matched amp to run at 8 ohm, and later add another set of them per side. and use the 1450 for monitor duty down the road if we need to add another 2 monitor mixes.

The mtxs are built into the front edge of the stage, and the yamaha's are sitting on the corners of the stage at the edge of the arch(this was an old theater before converted to church) and are about 3 feet higher than the mtx's.

 

I will get some pictures of the stage and speaker layout tomorrow morning during soundcheck before church and post them when I get home. Hopefully that will help give people a better idea of whats going on.

 

Another question:  The church also has a pair of old Community CS70 speakers (4 ohm 600w rms 1500w peak).    They are not in service, and I'm not sure if they still work, but would those be a better fit for the mid highs than the yamaha's?  I would definetly need a bigger amp to power those big boys properly though.  Back 20ish years ago when i was running sound, we had 2 pair and 2 18" subs per side and they got plenty loud and to my ears sounded pretty good.

Thank you for your time and replies :)

Chad

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The Community CS70-S2 were a high output speaker in their day. Right around 105 db output for a 1 watt input. If in good working order they would be Miles above the MTX speakers and should be much better than the Yamaha's as well. They were around 500 to 600 watts rms and could have an amp in the 1200 to 1600 watt rms at 4 ohms range if I remember right. Odd that they are not being used. Seems like the MTX are in a bad spot right now I wonder if they can be unplugged and the CS70's could be plugged in for a try? Again have the 50hz low cut dip switches on in the back of the amp for both channels. The CS-70's on top of a double 18 crossed around 100hz or so properly powered would make a nice rig. Even a self powered 18 inch sub that had High Frequency Out XLR's going to your current QSC amp to feed the CS-70's would be a nice , simple setup. Pictures would be nice to get a better idea as to what your looking at.

Doug

Edited by Dookietwo
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Thank you for your input.  I just got home from church and took a couple of quick pics before rehearsal this morning.  I have attached them to this post.  I however did not get a chance to find out if the community cabinets are still in working order or not.  If they are, would they be a better use vs the yamaha's? 

 

I know that I am going to probably have to at some point get better cabinets for subs other than the mtx's in the future but if the community cabs are still in good working order would they outrun the mtxs and make it really noticable?

 

and would the qsc run the community cabs decently enough for now until i could get more powerful amp?  I will double check but believe the amp dip switch is on 30 hz low cut, didn't think to bump it to 50 since currently don't have a dedicated crossover.  When I go to practice this coming week I will move that to 50 hz, and try to get more idea about the community cabs as well.

Thanks again for your help! 

pic 1.jpg

pic 2.jpg

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Thanks for the pictures. Makes it easier. If I'm reading your post correctly and looking at the pictures the MTX on their side and the Yamaha's set on the stage are both full range.  I'm guessing a stereo setup?

Amp Channel A going to a Yamaha and MTX on the Right and Channel B going to the Left side MTX and Yamaha?  The MTX set on their sides close to the floor are not filling the room in any way. The people in front and blocking the sound. (I'm thinking at one time someone did use them for subs) 

2nd issue is the Yamaha's are not really tall enough either.  Looking at the floor going up, not knowing how far back the room goes , I'd have the center of the Yamaha horns at least as high as a person standing on the stages head would be. Have the horns around 6 feet high. 

3 thoughts.

1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and have them safely strapped to them. Upside down will better couple the horns of the MTX and Yamaha giving better output. 1 speaker cable to the MTX out to the Yamaha's. 

2.  Put the Community speaker where the Yamaha's are now. Again place the Yamaha's on top of them and upside down properly strapped for safety.  Unplug and not use the MTX speakers. Go into the Community speakers from the QSC amp and then out of them with a short speaker cable up to the Yamaha speakers.  This will give the QSC amp about a 3 ohm load or so but it is rated at a 2 ohm load. More current (wattage) will flow to the Communities but you may like the overall sound. 

3.  Find a way to get the Community speakers put in the place of the Yamaha's and up so the middle of them is roughly 4 feet high or so.  ( maybe on top of the MTX if it feels safe to do so )  1 amp channel to each Community speaker. 450 watts to each one and just see what the Community speakers will do alone.

Maybe find a day to try these different setups when there is no people around with good recorded music to see what seems to be the best match. You may not have an ideal amp or speaker setup but you may be able to get it sounding better. At the very least get some tripods for the Yamaha's or set them on a table etc. to get them higher. 

Doug

 

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21 minutes ago, Dookietwo said:

Thanks for the pictures. Makes it easier. If I'm reading your post correctly and looking at the pictures the MTX on their side and the Yamaha's set on the stage are both full range.  I'm guessing a stereo setup?  Yes it is a stereo set up

Amp Channel A going to a Yamaha and MTX on the Right and Channel B going to the Left side MTX and Yamaha?  The MTX set on their sides close to the floor are not filling the room in any way. The people in front and blocking the sound. (I'm thinking at one time someone did use them for subs) Yes that is correct, however when I have walked in front of the stage while playing either canned music or the band practicing I notice that there is not much highs coming out of the mtx.

2nd issue is the Yamaha's are not really tall enough either.  Looking at the floor going up, not knowing how far back the room goes , I'd have the center of the Yamaha horns at least as high as a person standing on the stages head would be. Have the horns around 6 feet high.   Where i took the picture from there is about 4 more rows of seats and then the back wall.  There is also a balcony but we don't have anyone sitting up there during services that I know of as we have roughly 50-75 people there typically and near 100 on occasion so plenty of seating on main level.

3 thoughts.

1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and have them safely strapped to them. Upside down will better couple the horns of the MTX and Yamaha giving better output. 1 speaker cable to the MTX out to the Yamaha's. How would you go about strapping the  speakers together?  I have a thought on how its done, but if i do anything I want to do it safely and properly.

2.  Put the Community speaker where the Yamaha's are now. Again place the Yamaha's on top of them and upside down properly strapped for safety.  Unplug and not use the MTX speakers. Go into the Community speakers from the QSC amp and then out of them with a short speaker cable up to the Yamaha speakers.  This will give the QSC amp about a 3 ohm load or so but it is rated at a 2 ohm load. More current (wattage) will flow to the Communities but you may like the overall sound. 

3.  Find a way to get the Community speakers put in the place of the Yamaha's and up so the middle of them is roughly 4 feet high or so.  ( maybe on top of the MTX if it feels safe to do so )  1 amp channel to each Community speaker. 450 watts to each one and just see what the Community speakers will do alone.

Maybe find a day to try these different setups when there is no people around with good recorded music to see what seems to be the best match. You may not have an ideal amp or speaker setup but you may be able to get it sounding better. At the very least get some tripods for the Yamaha's or set them on a table etc. to get them higher.   Thanks so much for your suggestions.  I will take some time in the next couple weeks to get in there and do some other work so I will try these suggestions out.

 

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1. Pull the MTX out from under the stage and stand them up where the Yamaha's are now. Place the Yamaha's UPSIDE DOWN on top of the MTX speakers and ha   (((("""" How would you go about strapping the  speakers together?  I have a thought on how its done, but if i do anything I want to do it safely and properly.""""))))

Most use small ratchet straps through the handles , up and over then back down through the handles on the other side.  As always its up to the user to determine what is safe. Consult a professional rigger should you not know for sure. 

Doug

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That was what i was thinking, or using wood screws and some angle brackets to screw together.  whatever i do for testing i won't strap down as nobody will be nearby, but if i find something that sounds better than current setup, i will secure them down thats for sure.  would hate for someone to get injured by them falling.

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3 hours ago, ChadGrieser1979 said:

That was what i was thinking, or using wood screws and some angle brackets to screw together.  whatever i do for testing i won't strap down as nobody will be nearby, but if i find something that sounds better than current setup, i will secure them down thats for sure.  would hate for someone to get injured by them falling.

If you look around some places sell black ratchet straps. They of course don't stick out the way the yellow ones do.

Doug

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