Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 So excited. My PA for what it was sounded pretty damn good only because we understand tone if not the mechanics of a PA. Now that I have a much better understanding of how limiters and filters work plus the fact that I have front loaded subs instead of horn loaded (delay issues) I cannot wait to hear it. I am expecting it to sound much better and hopefully a red light free night! If I can remember to take a camera I will take pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcastar Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 Which subs did you end up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 New subs The last I had seen posted you were asking about new tops?? Wait, I think I recall you mentioning that you got a pair of JBL MRX528 subs....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 So excited. My PA for what it was sounded pretty damn good only because we understand tone if not the mechanics of a PA. Now that I have a much better understanding of how limiters and filters work plus the fact that I have front loaded subs instead of horn loaded (delay issues) I cannot wait to hear it. I am expecting it to sound much better and hopefully a red light free night! If I can remember to take a camera I will take pics. Sweet! Let us know how it goes!! And pics are always nice. Ever notice how select women hang out directly by the subs all night??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Wonder Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 New subs The last I had seen posted you were asking about new tops?? Wait, I think I recall you mentioning that you got a pair of JBL MRX528 subs....... Oh yeah but that was for future reference but the guy that sold me the subs had a really nice pair of MRX 525's too for a good price so I wanted to know if they were any better than my Yorkvilles and at best they were equal to them so I passed. Thats the only reason. If I upgrade later I am looking at the SRX 722's or 725's but that is down the line. Yes I did get the MRX528s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 Had you tried to delay the tops to match the horn loaded subs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 No that stuff was a little over my head at the time and I knew I would be replacing them soon and they sounded fine for what they were (EV T18s) but those 528s should really be a step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 I'm actually in the process of switching from front loaded to horn loaded. IMO horn loaded subs sound great. Nice and clean sounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted February 25, 2010 Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 They both have their positives and negatives. But those 528's should get the job done for you for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 25, 2010 Agree and the 528s are almost new vs 4 very old and used EV T18s which by most standards were at best average. The 528s reach down alot lower and can handle more power. With the EV's I was flirting with giving them too much power. The 528s are a much better match power and HPF filter wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 Well after a full weekend with the new subs I have to say that I am very pleased with my purchases. Those 528s were a big upgrade from the T18s as Andy said they would. Our soundman mentioned how much smoother and even everything was. Also better coverage as the holes were very few vs the EV's. Oddly even the top boxes (Yorkville EX2000) seemed to sound better. I wonder if that had anything to do with everything being front loaded now? We also tested the phasing before starting to make sure everything was fine there. One thing that I have been having a problem with is amps clipping. Sub amp. AP4040. It did it on the 528s too and I made sure they were HPF @ 40hrz and made sure the limiters were all on. One thing is the power in the building is a joke. All standard wall sockets. I think the amps are hunting for more power. I checked the amps and they were cool. Didn't even appear to be running hard and the PA sounded loud and clean. We got people (musicians) all night asking us about the PA. The only thing I can point to is the x-over. The old DOD pos only had one side working so we ran everything in mono when I first got the PA. Green lights all night. As soon as we changed to the DBX223XL we started getting clipping. As if the DOD was squishing the PA so the building power didn't effect anything but now the DBX allows the PA to breath better drawing more current from the building. Thats just a theory but the only thing I can come up with unless the HPF filters on the amp are not working. Should I do HPF on the x-over too? Someone metioned that cascading filters might not be a good idea. One other thing I forgot to mention is they adding a bunch of specialty lighting for the stage at the time I changes x-overs. That would draw more power too. Anyway the amps are running cool and all filters and limiters are engaged and the PA sounded really loud and clean. I am getting tired of worrying about it. Right now that is the only room we are using the PA in but there are some we are adding that I know has better power so we will see. I think Andy mentioned that bad power in the room would cause the amps to clip but as long and the filters and limiters were engaged it shouldn't hurt the amps. Does that apply to the speakers too? So going forward I plan to get another set of the 528s to go with the Yorkville EX2000s. AP4040 amps with DBX x-over and Distro in a EWI 16 space rack. EWI 24x8x150 snake (that was the hit of the night at load out). I may have sold my FOH along with a bunch of other stuff I am not using so that will afford me the chance to get my Presonus Studio Live mixer. That sounds like a pretty nice PA now and a big step up from where I started. Thanks to all who have helped especially Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 28, 2010 Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 . One thing that I have been having a problem with is amps clipping. Sub amp. AP4040. It did it on the 528s too and I made sure they were HPF @ 40hrz and made sure the limiters were all onIf the limiters were on you weren't clipping your amp. One thing is the power in the building is a joke. All standard wall sockets. I think the amps are hunting for more powerDid you have a way to check your incoming voltage, and seeing if it sagged during load? The old DOD pos only had one side working so we ran everything in mono when I first got the PA. Green lights all night. As soon as we changed to the DBX223XL we started getting clipping. As if the DOD was squishing the PA so the building power didn't effect anything but now the DBX allows the PA to breath better drawing more current from the building the old DODs aren't that bad of crossovers if they are healthy. You sure your gain structure didn't get hotter using the new DBX? I think Andy mentioned that bad power in the room would cause the amps to clip but as long and the filters and limiters were engaged it shouldn't hurt the amps. Does that apply to the speakers too? Depends on if you have your amps/speakers matched properly. But I would think that trying to operate an amp, etc while being voltage starved would be pretty hard on it, as a generalization. One other thing I forgot to mention is they adding a bunch of specialty lighting for the stage at the time I changes x-overs. That would draw more power too. Hopefully you had lighting on separate circuits from the sound power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 28, 2010 Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 No problem. One thing that you might be experiencing is that now it's sounding smoother and cleaner, you are just turning it up more and expecting even more. Your old subs were loud but anything but smooth. The peaky loudness may have fooled your ears into thinking the system was really louder than it really was. Having everything front loaded eliminates the potential for possible (and correctable) time offset problems. There will always be alignment problems but many are not correctable because they vary with measurement position and therefore do not have a single correction offset time. There is nothing you can do with these so don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 28, 2010 Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 No problem.One thing that you might be experiencing is that now it's sounding smoother and cleaner, you are just turning it up more and expecting even more. Your old subs were loud but anything but smooth. The peaky loudness may have fooled your ears into thinking the system was really louder than it really was.Having everything front loaded eliminates the potential for possible (and correctable) time offset problems. There will always be alignment problems but many are not correctable because they vary with measurement position and therefore do not have a single correction offset time. There is nothing you can do with these so don't worry.common sense has always suggested to me that if you roughly know the length of a folded horn's mouth, if you moved the top cabs back roughly that amount, you would minimize the time alignment/phase issue. Does that make sense? Of course, with a cab like the EV sub mentioned, or the old JBL type refrig scoops where you have the speaker front-loaded and the vent being horn-loaded, it probably gets a little more compromised. Maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 28, 2010 Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 common sense has always suggested to me that if you roughly know the length of a folded horn's mouth, if you moved the top cabs back roughly that amount, you would minimize the time alignment/phase issue. Does that make sense? Of course, with a cab like the EV sub mentioned, or the old JBL type refrig scoops where you have the speaker front-loaded and the vent being horn-loaded, it probably gets a little more compromised. Maybe? Correct, though with folded horns, setting the speaker back 8-10 feet may not be quite so easy in practice As you noted, it's all about minimizing the alignment issue and not about completely correcting it (which you can't for all points in the listening environment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 28, 2010 Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 As you noted, it's all about minimizing the alignment issue and not about completely correcting it (which you can't for all points in the listening environment).Right. My thought has always been, if you can put them say 3' farther back than the subs, you are closing the gap on the alignment distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted February 28, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2010 No way to check the load at the time. Except one tell tale sign is the lights would dim slightly on every kick drum hit and obviously in turn the amp would flash a red light. I am on them to step up and run at least 3 or 4 20 amp boxes to the stage. Bad thing is that we pack the place on the weekend we play there but they don't do nearly as well on other weekends so I think we are kinda floating them at bit. Andy the PA is louder now it seems over the EVs. When the bar would get packed our soundman said he would push past unity a touch with the EVs. But the reds were flashing long before that. I spoke with him after the show and said he barely made it to unity at the end of the night and it was LOUD! Never saw a need to go harder. So we actually pushed it less. Amps were cool They already had lights there but added some and changed some but they are mostly LEDs and I didn't think they drew that much power but not sure about that. 4 Front LEDs with 2 or 3 speacials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 2, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Just to reiterate; if you have the limiters engaged in the amps, then the red lights indicate limiting, not clipping. The function swiches when you engage/disable limiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1960LesPaul Posted March 3, 2010 Author Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 Just to reiterate; if you have the limiters engaged in the amps, then the red lights indicate limiting, not clipping. The function swiches when you engage/disable limiting. Really???? I was assuming it was still referring to clipping. So because all the limiters and filters were on the red lights were flashing. And from a previous thread shoddy power can make an amp do this. So are my amps and speakers fine then? Shoody and the amps protecting could eplain why the PA sounds so good. Very clean and loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 If the line voltage drops, most amps will operate with reduced power output and generally the clip/limit LED will follow or track the clip point lowering quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BenBroChill Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 ok. quick question. no trying to steal the thread but if you have limiters on your amps, WHY WOULDN'T YOU USE THEM? Can anyone give me a possible senario? P.S. this is not toward anyone just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 There are times when you might be able to get another 1/2- dB without the limiters but really, I recommend using them always. QSC's GX series are not defeatable and I'm seeing the trend going this way. Same for HPF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BenBroChill Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 I'm glad it is. Honestly it wasn't until too long ago that I really understood HPF's and limiting and the true importance of them. I cant believe I didn't blow more stuff out of ignorance. Anyway now that I have a grasp on it i just couldn't imagine not using them. In my book the cost of my rig out weighs 1/2 a db extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 You would be surprised at how many folks think it's normal to blow stuff up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BenBroChill Posted March 3, 2010 Members Share Posted March 3, 2010 Well I work with some. They are techs, but pyro-techs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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